I meaned: less large than the 300 ATC furniture : i.e. a narrower tower like they did with Proac line !
I explain myself : typicaly, designers go with horn for upper midrange when high efficienty is needed ! But for a > 600 Hz in an active setup : the ATC could be "good enough" instead a horn + cd driver combo if able of such peaks without too much distorsion (with some recordings able of such dynamic : classical orchestras for instance if no compression was made on the reccording ! DSD ?).
600 Hz or upper XO could give some margin before distorsion I assume while narow bafle allows less difraction ? While 120 dB seems enormous, but the link I gave above shows the 300 monitor and its large bafle allows 120 dB continuous at 1 m !!!! It's hard to believe without hearable distorsion ?! But it is a very good number for normal people hearing their speaker at 2 meters for instance (114 dB continuous will deaf the poor audiophile, but if it means than it can play it on a transcient with an enough big damping and of course if the reccording allows such dynamic it quite a very good data !) ! 120 dB on a transcient with an average level of 80 dB is very good : if I remember classical "audiophils speakers" wake up at 110 to 112 dB, no ?
I would like to see a polar map + distorsion curves of this 3" dome at such spl !
I explain myself : typicaly, designers go with horn for upper midrange when high efficienty is needed ! But for a > 600 Hz in an active setup : the ATC could be "good enough" instead a horn + cd driver combo if able of such peaks without too much distorsion (with some recordings able of such dynamic : classical orchestras for instance if no compression was made on the reccording ! DSD ?).
600 Hz or upper XO could give some margin before distorsion I assume while narow bafle allows less difraction ? While 120 dB seems enormous, but the link I gave above shows the 300 monitor and its large bafle allows 120 dB continuous at 1 m !!!! It's hard to believe without hearable distorsion ?! But it is a very good number for normal people hearing their speaker at 2 meters for instance (114 dB continuous will deaf the poor audiophile, but if it means than it can play it on a transcient with an enough big damping and of course if the reccording allows such dynamic it quite a very good data !) ! 120 dB on a transcient with an average level of 80 dB is very good : if I remember classical "audiophils speakers" wake up at 110 to 112 dB, no ?
I would like to see a polar map + distorsion curves of this 3" dome at such spl !
Large dynamic range of a mid with ultra low distortion is why I like a conventional full range driver in a FLH like a tractrix or even constant directivity horn. With a 600Hz high pass xo, cone movement to produce 95dB at 1m is 40um! Very low distortion with such small movements and for driver with 2.5mm xmax, potential for high dynamic range to hit 120dB with low distortion is still possible.
Here is an example with XBush point source horn:
Can run all day at this condition and not be stressed:
Can easily hit 120dB within xmax for transients.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/285030-bookshelf-multi-way-point-source-horn-149.html
Here is an example with XBush point source horn:
Can run all day at this condition and not be stressed:
Can easily hit 120dB within xmax for transients.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/285030-bookshelf-multi-way-point-source-horn-149.html
That's why I purchased the Scan Speak 10F last year : to horn it (always not finished 
...)
Raw it is max 105 dB at 800 Hz if I remember Zaph measurements !
Well, we have not to forgett it is ten times cheaper than the 3" ATC ! (and that's why I purchased the ScanSpeak cone while would prefer to have money for such 3" dome if able to "peak" at such 120 dB or more spl without horn (...or at least its mini embeded wave guide)...
...)Raw it is max 105 dB at 800 Hz if I remember Zaph measurements !
Well, we have not to forgett it is ten times cheaper than the 3" ATC ! (and that's why I purchased the ScanSpeak cone while would prefer to have money for such 3" dome if able to "peak" at such 120 dB or more spl without horn (...or at least its mini embeded wave guide)...
Yes it does and the distortion remains unusually low with respect to other drivers.
Yes it does, but the 3" dome does so in its band with even less displacement and I suspect lower distortion. The advantage of a larger cone is a potentially lower crossover frequency which - as has been one of the main thrusts of this and another cited thread - represents a greater compromise overall. So why bother with a horn and/or a crossover in the middle of the 3" bandwidth?
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(emphasis mine)
That is an opinion, not necessarily universally shared.
Many 3-way monitoring systems target that kind of lower range for the mid driver (the last Focal 3 way monitor is a recent example example), as tweeter are now more capable of handling the lower crossover points than they were in the past.
I would like to hear an ATC 3in dome one of these days. I have wondered if it is possible to DIY your own 3in fabric dome using a rather large 3in dia voice coil motor and spider from a mid bass and removing the cone and adding a fabric dome? The little waveguide should be easy enough to 3D print. $800 is very cost prohibitive for mere mortals to play with for a mid range.
Maybe something like a 100dB sensitivity 10in mid from B&C as starting point? This is not a bad mid in its own right - CTC distance might be an issue though.
http://www.parts-express.com/pedocs/specs/294-658-bc-speakers-10md26-specifications.pdf
Maybe something like a 100dB sensitivity 10in mid from B&C as starting point? This is not a bad mid in its own right - CTC distance might be an issue though.
http://www.parts-express.com/pedocs/specs/294-658-bc-speakers-10md26-specifications.pdf
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I think you will find my previous statement "although others here have expressed otherwise" makes that clear - even if it is not the best example of language.
However, the definition of the mid-band as targeting the nominal vocal range remains a worthwhile objective. Just because tweeters are capable of lower crossovers than they once were does not necessarily make them reliable (in a professional environment especially) nor does it mean there was ever a requirement to do so.
One good reason could be a system would need more air to be moved below 700/800 Hz SO some more surface than 3" surface to keep good transcient (and damping) in this range.
The limit is not clear : some says 600 Hz, some other 800 Hz... Well, best system seem to have large surface aera or horn Under this limit !
Trade off : where a mid dome could be usefull ? 350 Hz to more à la ATC monitors or with the same dome 600 to 800 to more (so clear advantage to not bigger than 3") ? Ceratinly a question of setup, trade off, and talent to make XO, but I believe we have a part of the solution already writted : make it active with its own amp !
Even at 3" : 600 Hz is not a too big surface if the driver below is very snappy (big Sd and low cone movements ?)
Could it be subjective : perception of speed, transcient and damping ???
For instance I have a low efficienty 5" cone from 125 Hz to 2100 Hz electrical : it is very snappy but it lacks some "emphasis" for me ! All being subjective I sometimes find some big direct radiator too fat here !
Question of Sd and air moved or just tonal balance ??? That's also why I asked if sometimes rising the 800 Hz to 900 Hz range could add some thickness (while keeping the trancient and slam effect below when the radiator has still low Sd...).
One thing is sure on the paper:this ATC 3" dome is more capable in the of axis tweeter zone than a horned 3" cone à la Scan Speak 10F. Under 1 000 Hz Earl Gedlle says ears are less sensible than above 1000 Hz... 700 Hz staying a good trade off for classical XO (well is thought is surely very shorted by my understanding as well...)
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It's different in polar directivity but a B&G Neo8 makes a fine mid range with very low energy storage for snappy transients and low distortion.
https://www.parts-express.com/pedoc...r-graebener-neo8-pdr-specifications-44311.pdf
https://www.parts-express.com/pedoc...r-graebener-neo8-pdr-specifications-44311.pdf
A 200-ish Hz crossover point has two advantages:
1- it contains more or the vocal fundamentals than a 300-ish one (and not only for male voices)
2- it is low enough to reach Schroeder frequency in most room, and leave more freedom to choose a LF solution
I think what JBL or Focal are looking for with that midrange is precisely covering the vocal fundamental range.
@ xrq : --- but poor max spl ! I assume it is a challenge as well to let it to sing with a flat curve !
I assume it's excellent for casual listening if not horned (don't tell me you have horned too this planar ?)
I believe because my poor money I will horn the Scan Speak in a private room (living room not proof with diy horns) or at least a Tang Band w8-17something !
Sorry, tottaly of topic !
Let please continue with the sexy domes mid designs !
I assume it's excellent for casual listening if not horned (don't tell me you have horned too this planar ?
)I believe because my poor money I will horn the Scan Speak in a private room (living room not proof with diy horns
) or at least a Tang Band w8-17something !Sorry, tottaly of topic !
Let please continue with the sexy domes mid designs !
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It would indeed be advantageous but such a solution seems to compromise the upper mid-band crossover which - as also explained previously - provides more of an overall compromise when an optimised system is produced - at least using these type of drive units. The commonly adopted 350-400Hz crossover settles for covering the nominal female vocal range.
pos, what is please the Focal driver and/or speaker you talk about ? And if Soundbloke permitt to talk about it in relation to the 3" dome.
Talking about which vocal range ? For Opéras this is lower for the Fundamentals ... for instance 90 Hz for a tenor, even lower with bass singer ! What is the range for a femal jazz singer as Patricia Barber ? I can't see advantages here for the 3" dome or most of the cones (because there is not only human voice in those FR halas !)
I see also with no active XO an advantage to 200 Hz-ich :the crossover is more or less in the gap created by the front wall if the speker is at a distance of less than one meter approximatly ! (btw finished your M2 ?)
Talking about which vocal range ? For Opéras this is lower for the Fundamentals ... for instance 90 Hz for a tenor, even lower with bass singer ! What is the range for a femal jazz singer as Patricia Barber ? I can't see advantages here for the 3" dome or most of the cones (because there is not only human voice in those FR halas !)
I see also with no active XO an advantage to 200 Hz-ich :the crossover is more or less in the gap created by the front wall if the speker is at a distance of less than one meter approximatly ! (btw finished your M2 ?)
About fc choice don't forget that requirements in pro and home/domestic use is different regarding room behavior, schroeder frequency and some other points like tolerance to wide directivity spread, presence of rfz, etc, etc,...
What is determining criteria in one field can be totaly over engineered in the other or the inverse.
What is determining criteria in one field can be totaly over engineered in the other or the inverse.
Fo sure, it's a mess to speak about that for our home environment below 600/800 Hz (bafle steps,room modes,... lack of room treatment and active set ups for most of us !)
The good thing is this 3" dome is also found in audiophile range like Proac (at least the old lines... ça nous rajeunit pas !)
The good thing is this 3" dome is also found in audiophile range like Proac (at least the old lines... ça nous rajeunit pas !)
SM6 - Focal
I am afraid it is a never ending journey I embarked upon with these speakers (and audio in general)
Joke aside, I have a working system, but certainly not a finished one.
(as this is OT I suggest we don't continue that discussion
)
If you are referring to the double spider that is not that much of a rarity these days.
My Volt woofers have them and a 75mm coil but they cost about the same as ATC domes.
I suspect many of BMS cone drivers have them too since they feature the same vents which would seem to make little sense otherwise (double spider Volt woofers are vented, single spider ones are not).