Hi,
Thanks, Sreten.
Too bad the older Visaton ribbons were abandoned. They used to be a lot cheaper too.
Cheers,😉
Thanks, Sreten.
Too bad the older Visaton ribbons were abandoned. They used to be a lot cheaper too.
Cheers,😉
About ATD
Most of ATD ribbons are AURUM CANTUS and HI-VI ones, re-marked from ATD. At least in Italy, it is much more cheaper to buy the originals than the ATD ribbons, even including freight and taxes to buy them from USA.
Claudio
Most of ATD ribbons are AURUM CANTUS and HI-VI ones, re-marked from ATD. At least in Italy, it is much more cheaper to buy the originals than the ATD ribbons, even including freight and taxes to buy them from USA.
Claudio
Ribbons
Dave, ribbons have a limited vertical dispersion, don't you think it is a limitation?
At this address , you can see some non-linear distorsion measurements of various tweeters: the only ribbon measured, HI-VI RT2H, has worst non-linear distorsion compared to the Scanspeak D2905-9300. Of course this doesn't mean that all ribbon tweeters have high non-linear distorsion.
Regards
Claudio
Dave, ribbons have a limited vertical dispersion, don't you think it is a limitation?
At this address , you can see some non-linear distorsion measurements of various tweeters: the only ribbon measured, HI-VI RT2H, has worst non-linear distorsion compared to the Scanspeak D2905-9300. Of course this doesn't mean that all ribbon tweeters have high non-linear distorsion.
Regards
Claudio
I've been wanting to get more up-to-date with what ribbon tweeters are available, but I've noticed some dodgy things about the waterfall plots and impulse response plots. So much so, that I'm beginning to wonder if deliberate tactics are employed to prevent honest comparisons with other types of speakers.
Things I've noticed:
-Often there is as little as 10dB of resolution in waterfall plots, so that even major resonances wouldn't be seen because they'd be below the sensitivity threshold.
-Impulse response plots sometimes use a completely inadequate scale, eg: 2.8ms per division and a linear magnitude scale instead of a standard logarithmic scale. That is just fraudulent: it hides most of the useful information and pretends that the response is exceptionally quick and clean, when it might not be.
That said, I really do want to see some superior performance specs from ribbon tweeters. Because if they're better, then I want some!
CM
Things I've noticed:
-Often there is as little as 10dB of resolution in waterfall plots, so that even major resonances wouldn't be seen because they'd be below the sensitivity threshold.
-Impulse response plots sometimes use a completely inadequate scale, eg: 2.8ms per division and a linear magnitude scale instead of a standard logarithmic scale. That is just fraudulent: it hides most of the useful information and pretends that the response is exceptionally quick and clean, when it might not be.
That said, I really do want to see some superior performance specs from ribbon tweeters. Because if they're better, then I want some!
CM
Hi,
If you don't mind me to saying so, I heard quite a number of esoteric tweeters in my life, quite often with corresponding esoteric pricetags.
Very few of those did even come close to a half decent ribbon that sold at a tenth of the price of those big boys.
These are the specs of the Visaton ribbon and from what Sreten said about the Leribbon, I suspect that tweeter to measure in a similar way.
VISATON MHT12
Cheers,😉
If you don't mind me to saying so, I heard quite a number of esoteric tweeters in my life, quite often with corresponding esoteric pricetags.
Very few of those did even come close to a half decent ribbon that sold at a tenth of the price of those big boys.
These are the specs of the Visaton ribbon and from what Sreten said about the Leribbon, I suspect that tweeter to measure in a similar way.
VISATON MHT12
Cheers,😉
Re: About ATD
http://ldsg.snippets.org/sect-4.php3#ATD
http://ldsg.snippets.org/sect-4.php3#AC
http://ldsg.snippets.org/sect-4.php3#HIVI
🙂 sreten.
claudio said:
http://ldsg.snippets.org/sect-4.php3#ATD
http://ldsg.snippets.org/sect-4.php3#AC
http://ldsg.snippets.org/sect-4.php3#HIVI
🙂 sreten.
claudio said:
Compared to most dome tweeters looks very good to me,
especially around 15kHz to 20Khz. Seen domes flat on axis
to 25Khz and 30dB down at 30 degrees off axis at 25kHz.
Though I more than suspect 30 degrees vertical is not so hot.
🙂 sreten.
Hi,
Claudio,
Let me assure you that I don't lose any sleep over that.😉
I understand your concern but in the design these tweeters are used in it sits well above ear level when the listener is seated.
These speakers never lacked in HF response and image so well that I need to tell people what speaker they're listening to if I have multiple pairs in the room.
You know, there's only so much you can tell from a graph or measurement unless it stinks big time of course.
Another major advantage of ribbons is that they present an easy resistive load to the amp allowing for simple x-over design.
Cheers,😉
Claudio,
Let me assure you that I don't lose any sleep over that.😉
I understand your concern but in the design these tweeters are used in it sits well above ear level when the listener is seated.
These speakers never lacked in HF response and image so well that I need to tell people what speaker they're listening to if I have multiple pairs in the room.
You know, there's only so much you can tell from a graph or measurement unless it stinks big time of course.
Another major advantage of ribbons is that they present an easy resistive load to the amp allowing for simple x-over design.
Cheers,😉
The best tweeters i've heard have all been ribbons ... it is so nice to see growing competition driving the price down to where mere mortals can afford them.
dave
dave
planet10 said:
they are of the same opinion, when you listen to a good ribbon tw you don't return backer.
Valter
Hello,
Sreten about ATD, I bought an ATD drt120 (€180) and discovered it is a Silver Flute YAG-20 ($27 at Madisound). I measured my ATD and comparred the response with the one published by Silver Flute: they are identical. SF was one of the names that Aurum Cantus had before changing his chinese name, if I remember well.
Besides, here you can see that Aurum european contact is ATD: http://www.aurumcantus.com/english/g2g3/g2 si/g2si.htm
And here some ATD products, and their corresponding Aurum and HI-VI:
http://www.vittoriofranchi.it/Nastri.htm
ATD DDRT81 = HIVI RT2HA
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&PartNumber=297-407&DID=7
350 euro vs. 108 usd
ATD ALIAN 1 = Aurum Cantus G2
http://www.e-speakers.com/products/ac-ribbons.html
385 euro vs. 179 usd
ATD Alian 1.1 = Aurum Cantus G3
http://www.e-speakers.com/products/ac-ribbons.html
575 euro vs. 329 usd
ATD Alian 3 = Aurum Cantus G1
http://www.e-speakers.com/products/ac-ribbons.html
975 euro vs 479 usd
Regards
Claudio
Sreten about ATD, I bought an ATD drt120 (€180) and discovered it is a Silver Flute YAG-20 ($27 at Madisound). I measured my ATD and comparred the response with the one published by Silver Flute: they are identical. SF was one of the names that Aurum Cantus had before changing his chinese name, if I remember well.
Besides, here you can see that Aurum european contact is ATD: http://www.aurumcantus.com/english/g2g3/g2 si/g2si.htm
And here some ATD products, and their corresponding Aurum and HI-VI:
http://www.vittoriofranchi.it/Nastri.htm
ATD DDRT81 = HIVI RT2HA
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&PartNumber=297-407&DID=7
350 euro vs. 108 usd
ATD ALIAN 1 = Aurum Cantus G2
http://www.e-speakers.com/products/ac-ribbons.html
385 euro vs. 179 usd
ATD Alian 1.1 = Aurum Cantus G3
http://www.e-speakers.com/products/ac-ribbons.html
575 euro vs. 329 usd
ATD Alian 3 = Aurum Cantus G1
http://www.e-speakers.com/products/ac-ribbons.html
975 euro vs 479 usd
Regards
Claudio
claudio said:
I think that many people hear that as an improvement. This is for several reasons:
1) Reduced room interactions like echoes, room resonances etc. Therefore there is more stereo separation compared to tweeters that have wide dispersion.
2) Many people really like lots of bass, so for them a lower in-room power level versus on-axis SPL at high frequencies = better. I've noticed the same thing with soft-dome tweeters: the ones that are often highly regarded have very low sensitivity off-axis compared to on-axis.
CM
The ATD ribbon in the picture is in fact a bulgarian made ribbon, also sold in germany under another brand name. I have bought two pairs of then in bulgaria (and some pairs of all the other types off ribbons they are producing cause they all where about $30,- per pair) ) and used them in different systems. They can only be used as a super tweeter. crossing them at 3kHz will give you a very thin sound without any body.
The other Bulgarian tweeters I have bought and still using today are a copy of the old Decca/Kelly horn ribbon. These are very remarkable. Distrortion is the lowest I have ever measured on a tweeter. Impuls response is also the best I have ever seen, virtualy no ringing at all. And the most remarkble thing is the frequency response. Totally flat from 2.5kHz to 30kHz within +/-0,3dB !!!!! The off axis response at 30 degrees is also totally flat only 6dB lower, never saw that before. You can still find them very very cheap if you are lucky. In germany they sell them without the horn for lots of mony but they are not that good without the horn( why are people so afraid of horns?) I have spent hundreds of euro's buying tweeters but everytime I go back to these cheapo's. No Scan Speak, Seas, Thiel, Focal for me anymore.
If you are going to use the ATC mid dome, the Ravens or Aurum Cantus is a very fine combination, much better than a Thiel (Accuton, Ceratec, or wathever the brand name is in your country) A friend of mine has tried both combinations and the Rave was absolutly the winner. He also tried the scan speak ring radiator but I found it sounding a bit boring compared to the other two.
The other Bulgarian tweeters I have bought and still using today are a copy of the old Decca/Kelly horn ribbon. These are very remarkable. Distrortion is the lowest I have ever measured on a tweeter. Impuls response is also the best I have ever seen, virtualy no ringing at all. And the most remarkble thing is the frequency response. Totally flat from 2.5kHz to 30kHz within +/-0,3dB !!!!! The off axis response at 30 degrees is also totally flat only 6dB lower, never saw that before. You can still find them very very cheap if you are lucky. In germany they sell them without the horn for lots of mony but they are not that good without the horn( why are people so afraid of horns?) I have spent hundreds of euro's buying tweeters but everytime I go back to these cheapo's. No Scan Speak, Seas, Thiel, Focal for me anymore.
If you are going to use the ATC mid dome, the Ravens or Aurum Cantus is a very fine combination, much better than a Thiel (Accuton, Ceratec, or wathever the brand name is in your country) A friend of mine has tried both combinations and the Rave was absolutly the winner. He also tried the scan speak ring radiator but I found it sounding a bit boring compared to the other two.
Hi,
Not afraid of horns myself but the Decca can be a little beamy with the horn.
It's an excellent tweeter but as far as directivity goes I find the Visaton (amongst a few others) to be far less directive than a Kelly.
So much for measurements, heh?
To me the main attraction of the ribbons are their fabulous speed, combine that with an amp with really great slew rate and you're a good step closer to what you hear live.
Just my twopence,😉
Not afraid of horns myself but the Decca can be a little beamy with the horn.
It's an excellent tweeter but as far as directivity goes I find the Visaton (amongst a few others) to be far less directive than a Kelly.
So much for measurements, heh?
To me the main attraction of the ribbons are their fabulous speed, combine that with an amp with really great slew rate and you're a good step closer to what you hear live.
Just my twopence,😉
Directivity: if you listening to music with some friends, having a limited off axis,vertical and horizontal, dispersion means that the person on axis with the speakers acoustic center will be more lucky than the guys on his sides, I think. Even worst if they are not sited, since vertical dispersion in ribbons is not wide.
My point is that ribbons do sound well, I am using one myself, but there is a compromise as well, that is a more limited acoustic spot compared to dome tweeeters.
Claudio
My point is that ribbons do sound well, I am using one myself, but there is a compromise as well, that is a more limited acoustic spot compared to dome tweeeters.
Claudio
Hi,
I'm afraid audio will always be very much a single person experience if you want to enjoy it to the full, regardless of tweeter type.
Put another way, having a second or third person listening in bothers me in the same way regardless of whether we're listening to a system with dome tweeters or anything else.
Having a tweeter piercing my eardrums because of beaming in the HF range bothers me even more though...
But I think Ceramicman touched an interesting point regarding in-room interaction, I often found speakers with not too wide dispersion in all axis to have more accurate pinpoint imaging.
Cheers,😉
I'm afraid audio will always be very much a single person experience if you want to enjoy it to the full, regardless of tweeter type.
Put another way, having a second or third person listening in bothers me in the same way regardless of whether we're listening to a system with dome tweeters or anything else.
Having a tweeter piercing my eardrums because of beaming in the HF range bothers me even more though...
But I think Ceramicman touched an interesting point regarding in-room interaction, I often found speakers with not too wide dispersion in all axis to have more accurate pinpoint imaging.
Cheers,😉
Hi,
there are speakers that doesn't care of listeners position in the room: Aedon .
Some more explanation can be found here: Renato Giussani
Regards
Claudio
there are speakers that doesn't care of listeners position in the room: Aedon .
Some more explanation can be found here: Renato Giussani
Regards
Claudio
Very interested in the Visaton MHT-12 in fact more than interested - readon.
I priced them up and it appears that I can buy a pair for £260 or around $420US.
I spoke to Wilmslow Audio UK and after recieving lots of advice from Neil down there I was told that for the money it was going to be very tough to beat, so in the end I went for the Visaton Topas kit and I've got subtle re-work planned for the cabinets.
Should be interesting, thanks to all for the advice, its a shame that the UK has a very limited amount of decent ribbons available but a plethora of a mid-fi domes such as the ScanSpeak 2905-9900.
I priced them up and it appears that I can buy a pair for £260 or around $420US.
I spoke to Wilmslow Audio UK and after recieving lots of advice from Neil down there I was told that for the money it was going to be very tough to beat, so in the end I went for the Visaton Topas kit and I've got subtle re-work planned for the cabinets.
Should be interesting, thanks to all for the advice, its a shame that the UK has a very limited amount of decent ribbons available but a plethora of a mid-fi domes such as the ScanSpeak 2905-9900.
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