@ Dynaudio4way
I'm sorry, but there are no magic numbers I can give you, as it is a passive crossover I use.
The enclousure is quite small, as I use the speaker only as top above 100Hz or 120Hz, depending on the sub I use.
The crossover frequency is at 1.1kHz, with an acoustical 18dB/oct slope on the low-mid and an acoustical slope somwhere between 18dB/oct or 24dB/oct on the tweeter, as it becomes steeper over the crossover region. Part of the EQing is done in the crossover, the rest is done with notch filter on low-mid and a broader EQ on the TPL. With that I get a pretty flat frequency response and great off axis behavior.
Faaker See is a really nice place to be, I hope you had a good time!
@ LineSource
Wow, that TangBand looks really nice! How does it sound?
I'm sorry, but there are no magic numbers I can give you, as it is a passive crossover I use.
The enclousure is quite small, as I use the speaker only as top above 100Hz or 120Hz, depending on the sub I use.
The crossover frequency is at 1.1kHz, with an acoustical 18dB/oct slope on the low-mid and an acoustical slope somwhere between 18dB/oct or 24dB/oct on the tweeter, as it becomes steeper over the crossover region. Part of the EQing is done in the crossover, the rest is done with notch filter on low-mid and a broader EQ on the TPL. With that I get a pretty flat frequency response and great off axis behavior.
Faaker See is a really nice place to be, I hope you had a good time!
@ LineSource
Wow, that TangBand looks really nice! How does it sound?
Hi LineSource,
The Tang Band’s graph does indeed look flatter over a wider range, but it has nowhere near the same output capabilities – so there’s absolutely no way I’d consider Tang Band W8-1808 hi-fi driver as a serious alternative to 18 Sound 8NMA610 pro driver in a very high output midrange application such as mine. So as to which is the best “dream driver” it’s horses for courses – as you can see comparing them both…
Tang Band W8-1808_______________18 Sound 8NMA610
8 inch cone_______________________8 inch cone
1.5 inch voice coil__________________3 inch voice coil
30 watts RMS_____________________400 watts RMS
93dBspl/W________________________104dBspl/W
107.8dBspl max (calc)______________130.0dBspl max (calc)
BL factor = 5.28 Tm________________BL factor = 31.0 Tm
Mms = 9.43g______________________Mms = 17g
BL/Mms ratio = 0.56________________BL/Mms ratio = 1.82
Qes = 0.66_______________________Qes = 0.28
Qts = 0.44________________________Qts = 0.23
Made in Tawain____________________Made in Italy
The 8NMA610 has a solid cast aluminium sealed back design, which means no enclosure panel resonances, and guaranteed optimum factory designed loading, plus the midrange cone is totally immune to the high pressure rear backwave from the 15 inch woofer working in the same enclosure, and it saves me the bother of building a separate wooden sub-chamber for the midrange which adds bulky mass and reduces my net internal cabinet volume.
Also, my 18 Sound drivers are not the stock 8NM610, but a special version 8NMA610 where the ‘A’ in the model name indicates 18 Sound’s Active Impedance Control (A.I.C.) transcoil technology. These model versions are not listed on 18 Sound’s website, and are more expensive than the standard models and very difficult to get hold of.
I think they’re the best midrange for very high SPL output, although I have various other midrange drivers that I really like too, including my Dynaudio 15W75 and Dynaudio D54AF, and also Eminence Alpha 6A (cheap but good! 7g Mms, BL=8Tm) although my favourite sound quality I own is the 6.5 inch Audax PR170ZO with Aerogel cone (6.2g Mms, BL=10Tm, 100 watts RMS, 99dBspl/W) – a real shame they discontinued it.
Hi Meister_gue,
Surely you must know what EQ you are applying(?), especially if you’ve actually worked to construct an electrical circuit with selected components to achieve it in hardware. Anyway, I’m not doubting that your system sounds nice to you, but I’m saying that my own experimental results so far don’t match your findings using identical drive units, and a scientific method or proof requires repeatable results that can be duplicated elsewhere.
If you do remember any more details about your EQ settings used to tame any harshness, I’d be interested in your data. I’ll try crossover at 1.1kHz next time, and I’ll try all possible combinations of 18dB or 24 dB slopes and Butterworth, Bessel or Linkwitz Riley curves or Linear Phase crossovers while doing A/B comparisons.
The Tang Band’s graph does indeed look flatter over a wider range, but it has nowhere near the same output capabilities – so there’s absolutely no way I’d consider Tang Band W8-1808 hi-fi driver as a serious alternative to 18 Sound 8NMA610 pro driver in a very high output midrange application such as mine. So as to which is the best “dream driver” it’s horses for courses – as you can see comparing them both…
Tang Band W8-1808_______________18 Sound 8NMA610
8 inch cone_______________________8 inch cone
1.5 inch voice coil__________________3 inch voice coil
30 watts RMS_____________________400 watts RMS
93dBspl/W________________________104dBspl/W
107.8dBspl max (calc)______________130.0dBspl max (calc)
BL factor = 5.28 Tm________________BL factor = 31.0 Tm
Mms = 9.43g______________________Mms = 17g
BL/Mms ratio = 0.56________________BL/Mms ratio = 1.82
Qes = 0.66_______________________Qes = 0.28
Qts = 0.44________________________Qts = 0.23
Made in Tawain____________________Made in Italy
The 8NMA610 has a solid cast aluminium sealed back design, which means no enclosure panel resonances, and guaranteed optimum factory designed loading, plus the midrange cone is totally immune to the high pressure rear backwave from the 15 inch woofer working in the same enclosure, and it saves me the bother of building a separate wooden sub-chamber for the midrange which adds bulky mass and reduces my net internal cabinet volume.
Also, my 18 Sound drivers are not the stock 8NM610, but a special version 8NMA610 where the ‘A’ in the model name indicates 18 Sound’s Active Impedance Control (A.I.C.) transcoil technology. These model versions are not listed on 18 Sound’s website, and are more expensive than the standard models and very difficult to get hold of.
I think they’re the best midrange for very high SPL output, although I have various other midrange drivers that I really like too, including my Dynaudio 15W75 and Dynaudio D54AF, and also Eminence Alpha 6A (cheap but good! 7g Mms, BL=8Tm) although my favourite sound quality I own is the 6.5 inch Audax PR170ZO with Aerogel cone (6.2g Mms, BL=10Tm, 100 watts RMS, 99dBspl/W) – a real shame they discontinued it.
Hi Meister_gue,
Surely you must know what EQ you are applying(?), especially if you’ve actually worked to construct an electrical circuit with selected components to achieve it in hardware. Anyway, I’m not doubting that your system sounds nice to you, but I’m saying that my own experimental results so far don’t match your findings using identical drive units, and a scientific method or proof requires repeatable results that can be duplicated elsewhere.
If you do remember any more details about your EQ settings used to tame any harshness, I’d be interested in your data. I’ll try crossover at 1.1kHz next time, and I’ll try all possible combinations of 18dB or 24 dB slopes and Butterworth, Bessel or Linkwitz Riley curves or Linear Phase crossovers while doing A/B comparisons.
hi guy's
my goal is to figure out a lower midrange driver to combine with the TPL150 for home use.
some candidates which might be interesting:
for 2 way :
MTM configuration :
Volt :
http://www.solen.ca/pdf/volt/b25001.pdf
http://www.solen.ca/pdf/volt/bm25004.pdf
3 way :
midlow:
Faital 10PR300
FaitalPRO - Professional Loudspeakers Made in Italy
bass ?
my goal is to figure out a lower midrange driver to combine with the TPL150 for home use.
some candidates which might be interesting:
for 2 way :
MTM configuration :
Volt :
http://www.solen.ca/pdf/volt/b25001.pdf
http://www.solen.ca/pdf/volt/bm25004.pdf
3 way :
midlow:
Faital 10PR300
FaitalPRO - Professional Loudspeakers Made in Italy
bass ?
Volt drivers and TPL
Hi Angelo,
The Volt 2500.1 is a great low bass driver 25Hz up to about 125Hz, but it is not good much above 250Hz and certainly be way past its best by 1,000Hz.
The Volt 2500.4 is a great mid bass driver, I have used it in many designs, usually sealed or open baffle. Once I and even used it ported way back in the original " Vortex" two way by Wilmslow Audio.
A two way MTM with the Beyma TPL would on paper be really special... expensive but truely world class. I would wire the 8 Ohm Volts in parallel, this will bring their real world sensitivity up to around 94 dB.
If money were no object an open baffle ( VPL not U or H frame) line array of 6 ( 98 ish dB ) or even 8 (100 ish dB) of Volt 2500.4 on an acrylic baffle 400mm wide plus VPL wings, suspended by a stainless steel pole and wire frame would be on my wish list...!!
Back in the real world...
If you build the two way MTM, the only upgrade you would require would be to a matching world class crossover.
A battery powered DEQX with the digi out option, so you can use world class DACS and an A to D if you require any analog inputs, is the best I have used or heard.
I hope this helps and good luck, you are a great DIY role model, and I have great respect for you, always seeking perfection and willing to learn from experience...the hard way but the best way!!
Cheers
Derek.
Hi Angelo,
The Volt 2500.1 is a great low bass driver 25Hz up to about 125Hz, but it is not good much above 250Hz and certainly be way past its best by 1,000Hz.
The Volt 2500.4 is a great mid bass driver, I have used it in many designs, usually sealed or open baffle. Once I and even used it ported way back in the original " Vortex" two way by Wilmslow Audio.
A two way MTM with the Beyma TPL would on paper be really special... expensive but truely world class. I would wire the 8 Ohm Volts in parallel, this will bring their real world sensitivity up to around 94 dB.
If money were no object an open baffle ( VPL not U or H frame) line array of 6 ( 98 ish dB ) or even 8 (100 ish dB) of Volt 2500.4 on an acrylic baffle 400mm wide plus VPL wings, suspended by a stainless steel pole and wire frame would be on my wish list...!!
Back in the real world...
If you build the two way MTM, the only upgrade you would require would be to a matching world class crossover.
A battery powered DEQX with the digi out option, so you can use world class DACS and an A to D if you require any analog inputs, is the best I have used or heard.
I hope this helps and good luck, you are a great DIY role model, and I have great respect for you, always seeking perfection and willing to learn from experience...the hard way but the best way!!
Cheers
Derek.
Volt max crossover
Hi Hennie,
That depends... could be as low as 500Hz with a single Volt in a basic sealed or ported box with low order crossover slopes. Could be as high as 2,000Hz with an MTM in open baffle with 48dB slopes.
(1) Crossover slopes...the steeper the slope, the higher the crossover point can be. The minimum I use is 48dB per octave Linear phase.
(2) Loading on Volt... highest crossover point is open baffle, then you have zero box colourations and ghost echoes i.e. sound bouncing around inside the box and then being emitted back through the thin paper cone...out of phase...yeugh!
(1) Number of Volts i.e. single twin ( MTM ) or line array multiples. For each doubling of cone area you half the excursion, so 2, 4, 8 and 16(!) are the magic numbers. The lower the excursion the higher the crossover point can be. You also gain 3dB sensitivity with each doubling of the cone area ( not just with each additional driver) and you half the distortions when you half the excursion.
If you really go to town on the box construction you can reduce the box colourations a lot i.e. a good sealed box with curved walls layered Birch ply construction and very good internal dispersal / absorbing using fiberglass pads and foam wedges.
Same with a ported box but you will always have the sound coming out of the port being out of phase with the driver....Yeugh!
In most designs money is better spent on drivers than boxes...
More drivers and / or better quality drivers on a simple open baffle / suspension frame will generally sound much better than a killer box with one driver...Magico has got it wrong!! But great marketing of the Emperor’s new clothes to all the deaf millionaires...
Hope the above helps
All the best
Derek.
Hi Hennie,
That depends... could be as low as 500Hz with a single Volt in a basic sealed or ported box with low order crossover slopes. Could be as high as 2,000Hz with an MTM in open baffle with 48dB slopes.
(1) Crossover slopes...the steeper the slope, the higher the crossover point can be. The minimum I use is 48dB per octave Linear phase.
(2) Loading on Volt... highest crossover point is open baffle, then you have zero box colourations and ghost echoes i.e. sound bouncing around inside the box and then being emitted back through the thin paper cone...out of phase...yeugh!
(1) Number of Volts i.e. single twin ( MTM ) or line array multiples. For each doubling of cone area you half the excursion, so 2, 4, 8 and 16(!) are the magic numbers. The lower the excursion the higher the crossover point can be. You also gain 3dB sensitivity with each doubling of the cone area ( not just with each additional driver) and you half the distortions when you half the excursion.
If you really go to town on the box construction you can reduce the box colourations a lot i.e. a good sealed box with curved walls layered Birch ply construction and very good internal dispersal / absorbing using fiberglass pads and foam wedges.
Same with a ported box but you will always have the sound coming out of the port being out of phase with the driver....Yeugh!
In most designs money is better spent on drivers than boxes...
More drivers and / or better quality drivers on a simple open baffle / suspension frame will generally sound much better than a killer box with one driver...Magico has got it wrong!! But great marketing of the Emperor’s new clothes to all the deaf millionaires...
Hope the above helps
All the best
Derek.
Mid Proraum Vertriebs-GmbH | Shop | AUDAX | AUDAX HM210Z10
For BBMTM or BMT 95dBwmtr
Bas 2X studio bas beymay B12B100R 30Hz F3 and 98dB 1Wmtr 200liter enclosure.
For BBMTM or BMT 95dBwmtr
Bas 2X studio bas beymay B12B100R 30Hz F3 and 98dB 1Wmtr 200liter enclosure.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
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hi Derek
is the 2500.1 better in the bass than the 2500.4 ? Would it in this case not been better to use one 2500.1 up to 250hz, and the 2500.4 up until crossover ?
the Volt has the most attactive description on paper. What i most praise, is naturalness/neutrality, and dynamics. And both ingredients seem to be the strength of this model:
That says it all, and makes this driver a top contender for a great sounding two way design.
John of AE speakers compares the Volt to his speakers:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/138020-12-lower-midrange-upper-bass-2.html
The volt drivers look ok, but looking at BM2500.4 the inductance is still .9mH, representative of not having a shorting ring. It appears nothing is done to lower inductance, linearize inductance, or eliminate flux modulation. This is a 92dB efficiency studio range driver. It would be comparable to our TD10X. The difference is we have 1/3 the inductance. Inductance is linear. Flux is fixed in the gap as it needs to be. We have 14mm Xmax vs 8mm and about 4x the real world power handling.
The 251.4 would compare more to our TD10M. Again the same things apply regarding linear inductance and flux modulation. We have .2mH inductance vs .8mH. Xmax is 6mm vs 2.5mm for the Volt and we have about 4x the power handling.
He does however not mention about sound quality, naturalness, and specially tone........
that would make them 4ohm drivers. would that not be any problem for SET amps to drive them ?
German Backes & Mueller makes a nice line array with the TPL, but closed box:
the 2 10" woofers are placed behind the box. I have my interrogations, if that is a good woofer placement.....
I would love to try out Digmoda plate amps, with ICE power modules, room correction, and active crossover....
My ego has been massaged. Thanks for that
Volt and stuff..
Hi Angelo,
We are really getting into the finer details where the differences are very subtle, but in my opinion...The Volt 2500.1, as a dedicated bass driver, has more weight and realism below 150Hz... The 2500.4 is better above 200Hz... But that means a three way and the extra crossover point, however good a crossover is... the best one is none at all...
Re AE drivers... The reason a lot of other manufacturers compare their drivers to Volt is because Volt are THE reference among references...!
Now the top of the range "M series "AE drivers are low MMS high (ish) BL, although they charge a lot extra for the more powerful Apollo motor. They are really good well-built drivers...
But The 10 year old and still(!) infamous Lambada / AE "White Paper" Ahem... claiming "mass don’t count" is just a load of marketing BS.
I have written a lot ( as have others) on just how ridiculous that argument is, I won’t repeat it here just search my old posts from a few years ago...
All the low inductance / copper rings does is extend the top end frequency response and allow a larger XMax by extending the magnetic force over a longer gap.
Now that’s good if you want to run the driver out to 2, 3 or 4KHz... I don’t recommend that under any circumstances.
Also re Xmax...Please never run any driver above 100Hz so that it is having to travel more than plus or minus 1mm. I repeat plus or minus 1mm MAX travel.
In my" Finale" speaker I ran a single Volt 2500.4 in a small VPL open baffle and fed it a full 200 watts of solid state power the SPL meter read 115dB at 1 meter averaged over music ( loud part of Gladiator soundtrack) The cone movement was only just visible...approx. plus or minus 0.5mm. Now this was crossed over at 300Hz with a 60dB linear phase filter...
Had the cone been moving plus or minus 1mm or more I would have doubled up the Volts to an MTM design...This simple technique is not liked by fancy driver manufacturers... But it works beautifully and simply sounds more natural than one "Ultra" driver pumping away with its 5mm, 10mm, 15mm or 50mm Xmax...
Why do the huge rubber hose pipe surround massive MMS car sub woofers with Xmax in meters sound so crap...
Ultra extended Xmax and ultra extended frequency response are at best wasted engineering expense that would be better spent elsewhere...At worst they are useless marketing hype trying to find some USP to differentiate themselves from other drivers...
Basically I am trying to say never operate a driver anywhere near its limit.
Also always strive to minimise cone / driver movement.
Look to maximise sensitivity by using the most efficient driver(s) and baffle(s).
Simple proven materials and techniques are the common threads that are found in most of the best sounding cone drivers... Good old paper cones, linen surround, large voice coils, powerful BL to low MMS.
Again I have written pages of this over the years along with lots of photos of how to build the baffles / boxes.
Sorry to ramble on as much...!
Hope its of help and interest.
Cheers
Derek.
Hi Angelo,
We are really getting into the finer details where the differences are very subtle, but in my opinion...The Volt 2500.1, as a dedicated bass driver, has more weight and realism below 150Hz... The 2500.4 is better above 200Hz... But that means a three way and the extra crossover point, however good a crossover is... the best one is none at all...
Re AE drivers... The reason a lot of other manufacturers compare their drivers to Volt is because Volt are THE reference among references...!
Now the top of the range "M series "AE drivers are low MMS high (ish) BL, although they charge a lot extra for the more powerful Apollo motor. They are really good well-built drivers...
But The 10 year old and still(!) infamous Lambada / AE "White Paper" Ahem... claiming "mass don’t count" is just a load of marketing BS.
I have written a lot ( as have others) on just how ridiculous that argument is, I won’t repeat it here just search my old posts from a few years ago...
All the low inductance / copper rings does is extend the top end frequency response and allow a larger XMax by extending the magnetic force over a longer gap.
Now that’s good if you want to run the driver out to 2, 3 or 4KHz... I don’t recommend that under any circumstances.
Also re Xmax...Please never run any driver above 100Hz so that it is having to travel more than plus or minus 1mm. I repeat plus or minus 1mm MAX travel.
In my" Finale" speaker I ran a single Volt 2500.4 in a small VPL open baffle and fed it a full 200 watts of solid state power the SPL meter read 115dB at 1 meter averaged over music ( loud part of Gladiator soundtrack) The cone movement was only just visible...approx. plus or minus 0.5mm. Now this was crossed over at 300Hz with a 60dB linear phase filter...
Had the cone been moving plus or minus 1mm or more I would have doubled up the Volts to an MTM design...This simple technique is not liked by fancy driver manufacturers... But it works beautifully and simply sounds more natural than one "Ultra" driver pumping away with its 5mm, 10mm, 15mm or 50mm Xmax...
Why do the huge rubber hose pipe surround massive MMS car sub woofers with Xmax in meters sound so crap...
Ultra extended Xmax and ultra extended frequency response are at best wasted engineering expense that would be better spent elsewhere...At worst they are useless marketing hype trying to find some USP to differentiate themselves from other drivers...
Basically I am trying to say never operate a driver anywhere near its limit.
Also always strive to minimise cone / driver movement.
Look to maximise sensitivity by using the most efficient driver(s) and baffle(s).
Simple proven materials and techniques are the common threads that are found in most of the best sounding cone drivers... Good old paper cones, linen surround, large voice coils, powerful BL to low MMS.
Again I have written pages of this over the years along with lots of photos of how to build the baffles / boxes.
Sorry to ramble on as much...!
Hope its of help and interest.
Cheers
Derek.
That's the only other single driver I'd recommend for this limited bandwidth.. It won't have quite as much "presence" as flat-damped surround driver, but it will have greater clarity. The decay character at the lower end (<400 Hz) however won't be as good as a driver with a flat-damped surround. So IMO, better at higher freq.s, worse at lower freq.s..
Are you aware of a phenomenon known as flux modulation, or the distortion mechanism that is variation in Le(x) and Le(i)?
As a matter of distortion Inductance has 2 issues: Current and Displacement.
The "Current" variety is in relation to the permeability of the motor's magnet under thermal stress - generating higher HD. Shorting rings aren't the only way to deal with thermal stress. (..Of course Displacement factors-into Current - the longer the stroke the higher the flux, the greater the resistance from thermal stress.)
The Displacement variety (beyond current as mentioned above), is in relation to IMD which is in relation to freq.. IF the bandwidth is limited with a low-pass filter, practically speaking this becomes a non-issue. (..and ironically if the driver has higher levels of inductance then usually it's upper freq. response is at least partially "filtered" anyway.)
At least under the bandwidth limitations that Angelo has mentioned, neither should be a problem.
Basically it all comes down to the driver in it's application (and intended use).
Augerpro has several TD drivers actually measured on his "DriverMeasurements" website. Depending on how you use them, none of the AE TD drivers are necessarily superior with respect to non-linear distortion (..than some of the other Pro drivers also measured on the same site). If however you want to go "broad-band" with a driver - then sure: AE drivers have some objective compelling design features.
As a general note: while I'm not positive about this, but I believe the infamous "white paper" was from Adire, not Lambda.
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BTW, a post here specifically mentions the PHL drivers in relation to the AE drivers:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/mult...-becomes-cindarella-i-hope-9.html#post2544802
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/mult...-becomes-cindarella-i-hope-9.html#post2544802
Driver Tech stuff
Thanks Scott,
My tech knowledge on drivers is not that great.. your skills are superior...!
Good spot, it was Adire... my bad.
To be honest the real fine tech detail of driver motor design is not something I have ever been able to get my head around... I understand the basics, maybe even semi advanced... but I have always just concentrated on how they sound.
Its a whole grey area trying to correlate what driver parameters and measurements equate to the best /most natural sound.
Bottom line the AE M series are great sounding drivers.... so are the Volts, Beymas, and some Audax ( Aero gel is sweet) Seas ( Mag cones can be great) and a whole bunch of others that I will never have the chance to test...My point is there are lots of different ways to make great sounding drivers...There is no one " Magic Bullet " that one guy has patented...
Only good quality materials combined with high build quality and intelligent design optimised for a given bandwidth....
That’s my 10 pence worth...!
Cheers
Derek.
PS Designing drivers is very different from designing speakers...!
Thanks Scott,
My tech knowledge on drivers is not that great.. your skills are superior...!
Good spot, it was Adire... my bad.
To be honest the real fine tech detail of driver motor design is not something I have ever been able to get my head around... I understand the basics, maybe even semi advanced... but I have always just concentrated on how they sound.
Its a whole grey area trying to correlate what driver parameters and measurements equate to the best /most natural sound.
Bottom line the AE M series are great sounding drivers.... so are the Volts, Beymas, and some Audax ( Aero gel is sweet) Seas ( Mag cones can be great) and a whole bunch of others that I will never have the chance to test...My point is there are lots of different ways to make great sounding drivers...There is no one " Magic Bullet " that one guy has patented...
Only good quality materials combined with high build quality and intelligent design optimised for a given bandwidth....
That’s my 10 pence worth...!
Cheers
Derek.
PS Designing drivers is very different from designing speakers...!
There are some comments at hififorum.nu about the Beyma 12P80Nd combined with TPL-150 which are very encouraging :
maibe someone native of swedish has a better translation :
HiFiForum.nu - Två Halmstadflyttar och en björn i Nissan
I have had time to play around with the new 12orna, . They are not even an iota of recorded yet, does not go nearly as deep as the 12P1000Ndsom sat in the same boxes two days ago. But what comes out! This is the most transient I've ever heard, with a resolution and with a tone that is purely amazing, I have not even heard a field coil element with the poise and sense of effortless at the base and the naturalness of voices and foundations in guitars and so on. I definitely think that anyone thinking of a little more TH or maybe kvartsvågspipor, or perhaps real horns, should include these elements in their thoughts. Then they can man be the foundation for a new model, a "supermoc" perhaps? TPL treble in originalmocarna included waveguide now, which enhance the sensitivity of 102dB, we need, then just find a nice 24 "or maybe 30" to the bottom? Ingvar
After a few days of listening, I think: the resolution, just like the version without the horns, incredible, välinspelade strings and percussion is ridiculous live and recordings that feels a little loud will be nicer then the element is completely free from ringing. Really bad recordings are however quite olyssningsbara when the treble is extremely revealing. Some boards feel a little # 8221, call # 8221; in the sound, probably due to the extremely low distortion, a compression driver is of course much higher 1st and 2nd harmonic distortion which adds some warmth and softness that are typically very pleasant to listen to. The combination QW-1 and the treble is really fun to listen to, now, are both basses to be recorded as well and they perform an amazing base and an addictive intimacy and life of the votes. Mathias: I have not really the plant, mocarna was too small, sometimes you could not find them if no music was played, it thus becomes larger versions, but there are advanced plans for a baby sister, mlk, (go ahead and guess! ) Hornta! Crossover 1200-1300, 2nd order LR, schedule is on PM, forgot to answer yours. Ingvar
how about a Beyma 12P80Nd to cover lower midrange, and Beyma 18P80Nd for bass duty ?
something like $100k speakers from Mark Levinson.....
I can't find info on a 12orna driver anywhere, your glowing review makes me want to check it out. Can you post a link?
Good to know that.
btw. i decided to keep Vitavox S2, and use the TPL-150 where the Coral tweeter used to be. Vitavox will cover a narrow range, from 500hz to 1,5khz only. I crossed the Fane Studio 8m at 500hz, and S2 up, but did not like it . let the Fane play parallel up to 1,2khz, and the Vitavox together, integrates better, and soundstage is better, than without the Vitavox. S2 is padded down with L-pad. While S2/H104 became fatiguing listening over time, with TPL-150 i can listen for hours, and i am not getting tired. What most impresses me is naturalness. Bad recordings sound bad, good ones sound good. Its amazing how it reveals things.....
angelo i'm wondering have you ever try to completely simplify your sistem to the following config: sub-bass + fane up to 1.2k + TPL-150 (as dipole)
because i feel this is where a solution for horn lovers lies - you can make a very compact 2-way with subs of your choice (and even big hypex sub horns for ultimate...)
the solution is in front of your eyes - you've picked a wrong audax driver.
now it's back in production, there's not many cone drivers that can come close to pr170m0, and it's only around $90 a piece.
http://www.madisound.com/store/manuals/audax/pr170m0.pdf
take pr170m0 and stuck it in a nice 100hz tractrix or (space permitting) le horn - you will get a perfectly (+- 1db) flat reproduction from 110 to 1500hz or little higher (the first breakups are around 1750hz), with a similar sensitivity as TPL-150 (approx 100-102db).
you will relax TPL-150 not to go into difficult lower knee areas so it will play HF better and you can get away with it without a supertweeter.
than just find a nice solution for 20-100hz and voila.
with a smart sub-bass solution this system could be driven with any SET amp.