Interesting. I wasn't aware of this design. The 10G40 look good to me as midbass drivers, but I struggle to see them perform so well in the midrange. The MTM configuration with the TPL resembles Dieter Achenbach's with PHLs: Lautsprechershop - Lautsprecherbausatz - Lautsprecherversand SON speakers
He has MTMs with 8" and with 6.5", with or without a sub.
Of course all of these woofers atempt to go into the bass too.
It looks like a highish Le for a midrange, and high Mms/Bl factor, compared to PHLs, for example. The AE TD8M is intriguing.
Sorry. I might have not made myself clear: My design is TMWW+sub. The 10G40 are meant as the W. Combined sensitivity of both WW is 100dB, but that really doesn't matter that much for me as it will be an active system and have 400W on tap. The decision for dual midbass is related to SPL at 80Hz and baffle step loss, and to keep excursion low (20% of Xmax).
From a directivity point of view, to match a TPL-150H around 2000Hz you need a 6.5" (around 88° at 2000Hz) . Maybe an 8", which would be around 68° at 2000Hz.
I do like the 12P80Nd a lot but directivity mismatch holds me back.
Oui, mais...
The Heil ESS V1 at 1600 hz could be a better match for the sensivity of the Beyma 12P80nd which is nearer in its low range from 95 dB in the IE bafle of Beyma Datasheet (I don't know how it's measure in a sealed cabinet but Angelo said it was flat from 50 hz to the upper XO 1600 he choosed).
I saw Supravox specs of few drivers, but the polar patern, I saw no drivers wich can match with fast damping of the 12P80nd (like the Supravox 210GMF I thinked about).
Maybe this one from EMS (made by the founder of Fertin) : http://www.emspeaker.com/fiche_LB12MKII.pdf : Full Range (here measurement are at 3.6 meters (in 15° axis ) in a semi-reverb aera) which could allow a 1800 to 2000 XO with the TPL150 or a smoother slope... maybe ! I don't like the lack of data from this brand (could you read the spl level, look at an impedance curve, a polar map, what happens below 200 hz??? : damned for the price I am asking myself more than twice before buying it) although it has a good reputation about the sounding qualities of their drivers ! And... 40 W (should be enough with a class A from Hiraga like Angelo has !).
My first concern is the midbass so maybe in my case this the TPL150 the problem ! Although (again) Angelo seems not to have problem with the TPL150 below the usual minimum 1800 hz advised, and with the beaming of a 12" either !
I would like to see measurements of this combo, If polar map problems between 1000 hz and 1800 hz, maybe they are in an aera which is not too serious enough to complain for the ears (after all there are often good speakers with a hole around 1.5 k Hz !) ???
I don't know, for me it's more a question of money which is avoiding me to try this combo immediatly as I want a good mid-bass without big Vott, W Onken or 1 meter 'and more) midbass direct horn !
A B&G Neo8 S or PDR could fill the gap with the TPL150, but it needs to be sealed because its 85 dB low end after 600 hz... : 1.5 octave then the TPL ? Too much filters imho ! In this scenario I would prefer to choose the Aino Gradiant design from Juhazi member (and I'm sure the 12p80 Fe could be a good candidate for a 250 hz to 800 hz OB driver with not too much EQ in the low to keep the transcient I like too in this range !). (as the 12MC500 as well for OB)
... Arghhhh ! It seems to me more easier to start from the Beyma 12P80nd/v2 and see what happen for choosind a design (OB or sealed !)
In fact the easiest path could be this 12" with an horn at around 1000 hz... but the horns have always something wrong in a normal home environment😱 ! I never heard anybody saying a compression driver and horn is better than a good ribbon or AMT (or at least a waveguided 1" dome)... but that's an other story ! For avoiding too much filters, the horn with a 1.4 or 1" CD could be easier !
In a lower sensivity scenario, the Beyma 12P80nd in a U-Bafle could go lower than 50 hz and avoid maybe a sub ! 😕 ? At the price of less sensivity, so going for a 8" above like the tangbang, a PHL and a little Neo3 above 5 K hz ? Also the 5" from PRV Audio than xrk971 measured as a full range could be a great alternative !
hummm, confused !
PS : @ lewinski : why not the 10m100 : seems more to glue with the tpl150 ?!
The Heil ESS V1 at 1600 hz could be a better match for the sensivity of the Beyma 12P80nd which is nearer in its low range from 95 dB in the IE bafle of Beyma Datasheet (I don't know how it's measure in a sealed cabinet but Angelo said it was flat from 50 hz to the upper XO 1600 he choosed).
I saw Supravox specs of few drivers, but the polar patern, I saw no drivers wich can match with fast damping of the 12P80nd (like the Supravox 210GMF I thinked about).
Maybe this one from EMS (made by the founder of Fertin) : http://www.emspeaker.com/fiche_LB12MKII.pdf : Full Range (here measurement are at 3.6 meters (in 15° axis ) in a semi-reverb aera) which could allow a 1800 to 2000 XO with the TPL150 or a smoother slope... maybe ! I don't like the lack of data from this brand (could you read the spl level, look at an impedance curve, a polar map, what happens below 200 hz??? : damned for the price I am asking myself more than twice before buying it) although it has a good reputation about the sounding qualities of their drivers ! And... 40 W (should be enough with a class A from Hiraga like Angelo has !).
My first concern is the midbass so maybe in my case this the TPL150 the problem ! Although (again) Angelo seems not to have problem with the TPL150 below the usual minimum 1800 hz advised, and with the beaming of a 12" either !
I would like to see measurements of this combo, If polar map problems between 1000 hz and 1800 hz, maybe they are in an aera which is not too serious enough to complain for the ears (after all there are often good speakers with a hole around 1.5 k Hz !) ???
I don't know, for me it's more a question of money which is avoiding me to try this combo immediatly as I want a good mid-bass without big Vott, W Onken or 1 meter 'and more) midbass direct horn !
A B&G Neo8 S or PDR could fill the gap with the TPL150, but it needs to be sealed because its 85 dB low end after 600 hz... : 1.5 octave then the TPL ? Too much filters imho ! In this scenario I would prefer to choose the Aino Gradiant design from Juhazi member (and I'm sure the 12p80 Fe could be a good candidate for a 250 hz to 800 hz OB driver with not too much EQ in the low to keep the transcient I like too in this range !). (as the 12MC500 as well for OB)
... Arghhhh ! It seems to me more easier to start from the Beyma 12P80nd/v2 and see what happen for choosind a design (OB or sealed !)In fact the easiest path could be this 12" with an horn at around 1000 hz... but the horns have always something wrong in a normal home environment😱 ! I never heard anybody saying a compression driver and horn is better than a good ribbon or AMT (or at least a waveguided 1" dome)... but that's an other story ! For avoiding too much filters, the horn with a 1.4 or 1" CD could be easier !
In a lower sensivity scenario, the Beyma 12P80nd in a U-Bafle could go lower than 50 hz and avoid maybe a sub ! 😕 ? At the price of less sensivity, so going for a 8" above like the tangbang, a PHL and a little Neo3 above 5 K hz ? Also the 5" from PRV Audio than xrk971 measured as a full range could be a great alternative !
hummm, confused !
PS : @ lewinski : why not the 10m100 : seems more to glue with the tpl150 ?!
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Stop obsessing now Eldam and start making some saw dust 😉 (shouldn't we all...)
If you base your design around the 12P80Nd (a large format midrange), go with something like the SEOS-12 or 15 above, crossed over around 1,200-1,300 Hz, and a nice 18" woofer below, e.g. the BMS 18N862.
If you go with the TPL-150H, get yourself a mid-driver with an Sd of around 200 cm2 (see my previous post) and cross around 2kHz, and pair with a good 15" (e.g. 15P80Nd) or 18" woofer (e.g. 18N862).
.. or, curve ball to shake things up, why not a 15XA38Nd with a super tweeter above and Stereo Integrity HST18 below. Use Audiolense or Acourate to create filters at 85, 850 and 8,500 Hz that you run through a miniDSP OpenDRC-DA8 to some nice amps of your choice (e.g. TPA3116D, IRS2092, Sanway FP14000) 😀
Yes very obssessing cause I would like a speaker that kick in the mid bass while having the resolution (and soundstage which already 3D) of my actual Boston Lynnfield 400L !
Stereo Integrity HST18 ! wow , Fs is 17 hZ !
15XA38Nd : seems good ! Had you hear it already ?
An open 6.5 with a Down EQ in the high instead the lows could be a good bet ! I explain myself : the PHL Audio I talked about has a 116 max spl, with -12 dB EQ in the highs (instead a more seen +12 dB in the lows) allows a 104 dB max output at Xmax which seems in par with todays reccordings for the highest dynamic peaks with an average listening spl volume at 80 dB in home environment)! from around 300 hZ and 2000 hZ if a TPL150 Horned is choosed (Xo at 2000 hZ).
I saw from the curves from ideal installation fron the tread "flat vs ...) that between 40 and 200 hZ you should go with + 10 dB !!!!! So before understanding the room modes in relation to size of the room and position of the speaker from the close walls, I play with Jeff Bagbys ' softs.... and insead of buying many speakers (I won't) for just a design because of missunderstandings, I bought this and still waiting for it : emx-7150 (as my actual mic is a crapy behringer non calibrated) with the good advices of the guys from the Full Range section !
Thanks for the advices, I believe it's more usefull for a lot of reason to buy the good drivers than buying many not so good ones ! I read a lot about compression driver not talking about horns by itselves ! tHE SEOS expansions is not so good, cheap ok, good for an home cinema, but Stereo is mainly for music at home !
Stereo Integrity HST18 ! wow , Fs is 17 hZ !
15XA38Nd : seems good ! Had you hear it already ?
An open 6.5 with a Down EQ in the high instead the lows could be a good bet ! I explain myself : the PHL Audio I talked about has a 116 max spl, with -12 dB EQ in the highs (instead a more seen +12 dB in the lows) allows a 104 dB max output at Xmax which seems in par with todays reccordings for the highest dynamic peaks with an average listening spl volume at 80 dB in home environment)! from around 300 hZ and 2000 hZ if a TPL150 Horned is choosed (Xo at 2000 hZ).
I saw from the curves from ideal installation fron the tread "flat vs ...) that between 40 and 200 hZ you should go with + 10 dB !!!!! So before understanding the room modes in relation to size of the room and position of the speaker from the close walls, I play with Jeff Bagbys ' softs.... and insead of buying many speakers (I won't) for just a design because of missunderstandings, I bought this and still waiting for it : emx-7150 (as my actual mic is a crapy behringer non calibrated) with the good advices of the guys from the Full Range section !
Thanks for the advices, I believe it's more usefull for a lot of reason to buy the good drivers than buying many not so good ones ! I read a lot about compression driver not talking about horns by itselves ! tHE SEOS expansions is not so good, cheap ok, good for an home cinema, but Stereo is mainly for music at home !
... not to mention Xmax and Xmech of 35 and 50 mm. This is what it could do in 300 liters sealed and vented @ 1,500W:
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... but I digress
I have. Intrigued enough to have picked up a pair to play around with 😉
Same thing, -12 in the highs or +12 in the lows is just a matter of representation, anything else is an illusion. Xmax will define max SPL at the low end of the passband and from there it is cut only (typically if assuming a rising response) to keep it flat as you move up.
Well let's assume Bob Katz gets his way and everyone listens at 83dB (one speaker), and you want 20-25dB headroom, you also need to consider listening distance. At 10 feet you lose almost 10dB compared to the 1m rating. Suggest you aim for 115dB @ 1kHz @ 1m instead of 105dB (you've got to be able to let your hair down too now and then...).
OK, 125dB in the bass then 😀 (i.e. BMS 18N862):
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Have you considered a JBL 2123H or newer derivatives...?
That's a good mic! I was considering that but ultimately went with a Audix TM-1 and had CSL calibrate it (5Hz-25kHz at 0, 30, 45, 90 degrees).
True - but time to move on to the equivalent in wood working, "measure several times, cut once" 😛
What's your issue with the SEOS WGs and in what type of measurements would this show up? The measurements I've seen look really nice, some even spectacular. Sure you can go with something more fancy but like you point price could become more of an issue, especially if shipping from Australia or Poland is needed. Doesn't get a lot cheaper than this for a 12" quality WG.
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🙂
To answer you I also add a look at this : D2 + M2 horn at Speaker exchange shop (John's thread aka P Batmann in the M2 for the poor thread)
*
though expansive for my money but same as TPL150H + a cone driver, and maybe not with custom and shipping from Speaker Exchange to Europe)
Cheap Seos are certainly not vibrations free and I bet for better constant directive horns as the new ones from JBL 'read they can be bought as a part ?!)
The only thing what please me in a CD is the XOs allowed ! But I listen only at 3 meters).
I'm not lying if I tell you my first wisch is to have a very good 80 to around 1 k Hz H1 😉 the rest of the design should follow this primary goal ! (of course I thought to OB design, but the 300 hz XO is in the middle of where the life is : ). I'm not sure a -12 dB EQ is the same as a + 12 dB EQ : in theory in the -12 dB : transcient should be greater as the cone doesn't need to move more to match the +12 dB... but never checked this simple theory !)
See you InOtIn, time now for me to drink a glass of wine and beginn the coocking ! Thanks a lot for the help provided !
To answer you I also add a look at this : D2 + M2 horn at Speaker exchange shop (John's thread aka P Batmann in the M2 for the poor thread)
*
though expansive for my money but same as TPL150H + a cone driver, and maybe not with custom and shipping from Speaker Exchange to Europe)
Cheap Seos are certainly not vibrations free and I bet for better constant directive horns as the new ones from JBL 'read they can be bought as a part ?!)
The only thing what please me in a CD is the XOs allowed ! But I listen only at 3 meters).
I'm not lying if I tell you my first wisch is to have a very good 80 to around 1 k Hz H1 😉 the rest of the design should follow this primary goal ! (of course I thought to OB design, but the 300 hz XO is in the middle of where the life is : ). I'm not sure a -12 dB EQ is the same as a + 12 dB EQ : in theory in the -12 dB : transcient should be greater as the cone doesn't need to move more to match the +12 dB... but never checked this simple theory !)
See you InOtIn, time now for me to drink a glass of wine and beginn the coocking ! Thanks a lot for the help provided !
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Audax HM100z0 Monacor MS 130 Fostex FE126En..
I am in similar position with Faital 12pr300 as woofer and I would like to implement a midrange 90-95db under 100uds/eur
My candidates are Audax HM100z0 Monacor MS 130 Fostex FE126En Ciare HM500
I think that 3 to 5 inch will be better that bigger size in the range 700hz to 2000hz, the bigger sizes have normally cone resonant distortion.
About the Audax and Ciare have enough info and the THD are better the Faital 🙂, but I can not find info over Monacor and Fostex.
which one have the lowest distortion in this range? 😕
I am in similar position with Faital 12pr300 as woofer and I would like to implement a midrange 90-95db under 100uds/eur
My candidates are Audax HM100z0 Monacor MS 130 Fostex FE126En Ciare HM500
I think that 3 to 5 inch will be better that bigger size in the range 700hz to 2000hz, the bigger sizes have normally cone resonant distortion.
About the Audax and Ciare have enough info and the THD are better the Faital 🙂, but I can not find info over Monacor and Fostex.
which one have the lowest distortion in this range? 😕
I'm thinking of getting a pair of tpl150h. I currently have diy speakers based on vintage goodmans axiom 301 run in parallel with audiom 61, these 15 ohm12" units are mounted as close as possible vertically with a beyma cp21f mounted close to the outside edge next to the goodmans. The axioms go to 10k and are 97db/w and the audioms to about 6k with the same sensitivity, so upwards of 100db/w together. They are run ob. Obviously there is noticeable loabing etc but the axioms sound really great to me. The cp21f is crossed in at 10k. I'm very much not a speaker guy, tube amps are my passion, but what would people's opinions be on a tpl150h mounted above the two goodmans crossed at about 2k? I have some eminence delta15 h frame subs under the goodmans, but often prefer them without. The current speaker walk over my old audionote an/ed's for speed, naturalness etc, but the ob nature helps massively in my room which has really terrible acoustics
YOU MUST GET POLAR SPL DATA on your Goodman12
Dr. Geddes white paper on controlled directivity could provide the big picture information to help you pull together your room with your speaker goals. Geddes recommends starting at 20Khz and using a tweeter horn/waveguide down to ~1000-1400Hz to control the polar response to best manage the room and listening position. Control/avoid early high frequency reflections. Geddes… run your Goodman12 up to ~1200Hz and cross to a horn/waveguide.
Sketch your room using the best speaker and listener position options. Decide how much room/wall interaction you desire for “reflected ambience” sound. Measure the polar response of the Goodman12 from 800-2000Hz. Select a horn/waveguide with the polar response that MATCHES THE POLAR RESPONSE OF THE GOODMANS AT THE CROSSOVER FREQUENCY. TPL-150H 80H x 30V; LeCleach ; SEOS15 90H x 40V ; 18Sound 60H x 40V
http://www.gedlee.com/downloads/directivity.pdf
The value proposition for the TPL-150H is: exceptional dynamics; excellent detail; exceptional efficiency; high max SPL; starting at ~1600-2000Hz; with 80H x 30V polar pattern. So… YOU MUST GET POLAR DATA on your Goodman12 around 1600-2000Hz before attempting this marriage .
Common compromise: If you want to run the Goodman12 above 4Khz, a horn tweeter like the Fostex T90A is often the accepted compromise.
The Beyma CP-21/F has a wide 140-degree horizontal dispersion...which will not match/blend well with an extreme 4Khz beaming Goodman12.
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Thanks for your excellent responce, I'll do the research you suggest! It may be that the goodmans would be wasted in this configuration, crossing at 1kHz and that a tpl150h would be better matched to another project
The Beyma TPL-150H favors being crossed at ~1,600Hz or above. There are a few 1" compression drivers which perform well when crossed at 1,000Hz, and several when crossed at 1,200Hz and above in good tweeter horns. The TPL-150H is attractive for "horn tweeter" + cone midwoofer + subwoofer designs.
When you sketch your room and listening area, what horizontal horn angles cover the seating positions(couch, chairs) with modest splay around the room? Home Theater couch seating often favors 90H x 40V. A basement man-cave with a 2-seat couch might favor 60H x 40V to avoid reflections off concrete walls.
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Polar Measurements for the 300mm(12") JBL 2206H show:
1) Below 640Hz a 180 degree polar pattern is generated on a infinite size baffle.
2) At 1280Hz a 98 degree polar pattern is generated on an infinite size baffle, and the SMOOTH plot measured polar pattern shows that the cone is free of major(wimpy cone) resonance modes and high frequency resonance break-ups .
3) Estimate that near 1,500Hz a 80 degree polar pattern is generated from cone beaming. A vibration on one edge gets canceled by a vibration on the 1,500Hz-wavelength opposite edge of the cone. A smooth polar match to the 90-degree horizontal TPL-150H horn is possible. Without a good polar match at the crossover, SPL energy from one driver will beam, as heard by the listener as irregular_SPL and irregular sound stage queues.
4) A real baffle with a width of 19" would show a reduction in forward 180 degree SPL radiation around 700Hz(19" wavelength), with a irregular increase in rear 180 degree SPL. irregular = edge effects, side effects, wall effects, etc..
5) At 2,560Hz, the rough, and irregular shape polar pattern on this JBL 12" illustrates multiple cone resonance modes and high frequency break-up. A steep slope Xover is needed.
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My two 12" drivers are 35cm c2c which I think means 1kHz is as high as they should go together, in practice my living room is only available to me to listen to music in after the kids and my wife are in bed or rarely when I'm the only one home so they're used like earphones really. I thought the goodmans ability to work at higher frequencys and high sensitivity might be a good match to the beyma.
I'm considering using my minidsp that I currently use to deal with my 15" h frames to go active and use say a 4p1l se for the beyma and 4p1l driving a 300b se for the goodmans, if possible I'd like to keep using the goodmans in parallel as even with a baffle step comp they are over 100db/w, though it seems there are serious compromises with this setup.I really like the way they do voices, but then I've never heard a tpl150h. Lots of reading still to do, the knowledge on diyaudio consistently impresses me!
I'm considering using my minidsp that I currently use to deal with my 15" h frames to go active and use say a 4p1l se for the beyma and 4p1l driving a 300b se for the goodmans, if possible I'd like to keep using the goodmans in parallel as even with a baffle step comp they are over 100db/w, though it seems there are serious compromises with this setup.I really like the way they do voices, but then I've never heard a tpl150h. Lots of reading still to do, the knowledge on diyaudio consistently impresses me!
OT...enzoastro, I have more curousity than knowledge about Goodman speakers. What box do you use for the Axiom 301? Axiom 61?
Simple may sound better. Have you experimented with the 301 in a sealed box, above the 61 in a ported box, with a simple inductor between them to push the deep bass onto the 61? Maybe size the inductor to bring 61 in around 200Hz. probably close to your baffle step. You could use your miniDSP if you want to multi-amp.
--Ported box 61 woofer on bottom for extended bass.
--Sealed box 301 midbass for best transients.
--Narrow polar horn tweeter to match 301 whizzer beaming, and provide some "invisible" high-freq sparkle.
I do not know how effective the whizzer cone on the 301 is for "clean" high frequency extension, but this will determine your tweeter crossover strategy.
Maybe turn off the Delta 15 dipole woofers.
What tweeters do you own?
Simple may sound better. Have you experimented with the 301 in a sealed box, above the 61 in a ported box, with a simple inductor between them to push the deep bass onto the 61? Maybe size the inductor to bring 61 in around 200Hz. probably close to your baffle step. You could use your miniDSP if you want to multi-amp.
--Ported box 61 woofer on bottom for extended bass.
--Sealed box 301 midbass for best transients.
--Narrow polar horn tweeter to match 301 whizzer beaming, and provide some "invisible" high-freq sparkle.
I do not know how effective the whizzer cone on the 301 is for "clean" high frequency extension, but this will determine your tweeter crossover strategy.
Maybe turn off the Delta 15 dipole woofers.
What tweeters do you own?
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I use them open back with a simple inductor and resistor for the baffle step. I actually like the whizzer treble on the 301's. The specs say they go to 16k, but when I measured them they have a little lift at 7k which I guess is the whizzer coming in then drop at ten. I'll try to find the files on my PC.
If I got the tpl150's then I'd obviously sacrifice the 301s treble, I can't believe the axioms whizzer could compare to an amt.
I was recommended the cp21f as a good value high sensitivity tweeter, from what you've told me it isn't a great match. I do have a Pyle pro horn and celestion cdx1746 that I bought with the idea that I'd make an econowave sometime.
Reading this thread the beyma 12p80nd was recommended as a matching midbass, seems about 95db at 200-2000hz so I thought perhaps this role could be taken by one of my audioms, or my parallel setup, if anything they are more efficient and sound good to way past 2k, the limited power handling really isn't an issue for me.
If I got the tpl150's I'd work round them rather than use them to fill in above the axioms.
Here is an article about a Goodman's driver a couple of iterations before the axiom 301's, alnico and paper surround rather than the vinyl/rubber stuff mine use
Goodmans Axiom 150 mkII
If I got the tpl150's then I'd obviously sacrifice the 301s treble, I can't believe the axioms whizzer could compare to an amt.
I was recommended the cp21f as a good value high sensitivity tweeter, from what you've told me it isn't a great match. I do have a Pyle pro horn and celestion cdx1746 that I bought with the idea that I'd make an econowave sometime.
Reading this thread the beyma 12p80nd was recommended as a matching midbass, seems about 95db at 200-2000hz so I thought perhaps this role could be taken by one of my audioms, or my parallel setup, if anything they are more efficient and sound good to way past 2k, the limited power handling really isn't an issue for me.
If I got the tpl150's I'd work round them rather than use them to fill in above the axioms.
Here is an article about a Goodman's driver a couple of iterations before the axiom 301's, alnico and paper surround rather than the vinyl/rubber stuff mine use
Goodmans Axiom 150 mkII
I visited a guy today who had the AE TD12M drivers. Unfortunately not paired with a TPL-150 though. He was using Beyma CP380M compression drivers with the popular H290C horn. He had crossovers at 133Hz and 1.2KHz if I remember correctly.
The dynamics and "effortless" sound was amazing. Even at concert sound levels it sound really clean and effortless, no harsh sound at all. However, I felt like they were lacking some warmth in the lower midrange. For an example, in the song "Epiphany" by Trans-Siberian Orchestra at 5:38 and forwards the guitar is pretty "beefy". With my own speakers (two 6" Morel CAW638 per side) I can almost feel the guitar vibrating throughout the room and it is almost like I can touch it. Same thing when I'm listening with my headphones (Denon AH-D2000 powered by O2+ODAC combo). Obviously not the same with my Mar-Kel70 speakers because a 4" driver has some limitations after all.
Is this a typical characteristic for the AE TD12M driver or similar drivers? Was it because of the room they were in? The guy had built a proper cinema room, very ambitious project, with lots of insulation in the walls and the ceiling. Much more damped and controlled than a normal living room which I am used to.
I'd love to hear a pair of 12p80nd and I heard there is a guy in Sweden that has a pair of 12p80nd with the Beyma TPL-150, exactly the combo that I am looking to build. However, he lived in or around Umeå which is quite far up north.
This project is still many years away in the future for me. I still have to get an apartment/house that can take a speaker like this (not my current 13sqm room) and I need to be able to afford it all. Good drivers don't come cheap :S
The dynamics and "effortless" sound was amazing. Even at concert sound levels it sound really clean and effortless, no harsh sound at all. However, I felt like they were lacking some warmth in the lower midrange. For an example, in the song "Epiphany" by Trans-Siberian Orchestra at 5:38 and forwards the guitar is pretty "beefy". With my own speakers (two 6" Morel CAW638 per side) I can almost feel the guitar vibrating throughout the room and it is almost like I can touch it. Same thing when I'm listening with my headphones (Denon AH-D2000 powered by O2+ODAC combo). Obviously not the same with my Mar-Kel70 speakers because a 4" driver has some limitations after all.
Is this a typical characteristic for the AE TD12M driver or similar drivers? Was it because of the room they were in? The guy had built a proper cinema room, very ambitious project, with lots of insulation in the walls and the ceiling. Much more damped and controlled than a normal living room which I am used to.
I'd love to hear a pair of 12p80nd and I heard there is a guy in Sweden that has a pair of 12p80nd with the Beyma TPL-150, exactly the combo that I am looking to build. However, he lived in or around Umeå which is quite far up north.
This project is still many years away in the future for me. I still have to get an apartment/house that can take a speaker like this (not my current 13sqm room) and I need to be able to afford it all. Good drivers don't come cheap :S
A little off topic : What compressions and XO are embeded in The Avangard Trio speaker please ?
For experienced people in high efficienty here, would you say it's a good high efficienty speaker according your own std (home environment) ?
For experienced people in high efficienty here, would you say it's a good high efficienty speaker according your own std (home environment) ?
Most likely not related to the driver itself. I'd hazard a guess that boundary interaction accounts for what you hear. When you have a midwoofer elevated to around 1m in a 2 way design, you can expect a major dip in the low midrange region. Measuring outdoors at 3m, a 20 dB dip around 350 Hz is what you can expect to see. It's most clearly seen in an outdoors measurement where you can isolate the effect. You don't have this issue where you have a woofer near the floor extending up into the low midrange region. An in-room measurement of both systems in the listening position would probably reveal a difference in frequency response that explains what you hear.
Headphones obviously don't suffer this issue and studios with nearfield monitors typically have a ruler flat response in the low midrange region.
If the room is larger and highly treated, that could also be part of the explanation, along with bafflestep. Keep in mind also that an initial impression of a lack of midrange warmth can over time become "greater clarity."
Hmm, okay... If you scroll down towards the end of this image gallery you can see what the room looked like Minhembio.com - Hemma hos dac83 - Nya Bio Bygget Del 2
I can't answer by looking at the images, except to say that we can rule out bafflestep. If you have a measurement of both systems overlaid on top of each other in the listening position, we'd no doubt see a significant different in the low midrange region. But the key point in answer to your question "no - lack of warmth is probably not an issue with TD12M."