I don't know of retail outlets for Krummer. Their few listed representatives seem like industrial distributors. But email them and ask where you can get some. Their snap-in series looks a lot like Mundorf AG & AG+ by the way.
This Mlytic (47mF/100V) under
https://www.mundorf.com/audio/de/shop/capacitors/power_caps/mlytic_hc/MLytic-HC/?card=996
is to find for between 200-250€/pcs.
The correspond GW from FTcap was available in the mentioned time area for approximately 100€/pcs (order code 47310090098) direct order from ftcap - not available elsewhere in the mentioned time area).
I'm using different caps building different VCO's , on sawtooth and square waves I see a different harmonic content in these circuits with different
brands and materials. On straight amplification , right down to the PPM .... no difference. The cap fetish is mostly subjective beyond just basic quality ,
ESR , cap chem/ physics , and application are the main factors.
I use Nichicon and panasonic .... won't mess with unknown china caps ... too many failures!
I buy new china PS's and kits , replace all the "banggood" /capcon" BS with Nichicon - good to go.
I just bought 1982 test equipment with perfectly good "rubycon' electro's. they test better (ESR vs. freq.) than my new Nichicons !
OS
brands and materials. On straight amplification , right down to the PPM .... no difference. The cap fetish is mostly subjective beyond just basic quality ,
ESR , cap chem/ physics , and application are the main factors.
I use Nichicon and panasonic .... won't mess with unknown china caps ... too many failures!
I buy new china PS's and kits , replace all the "banggood" /capcon" BS with Nichicon - good to go.
I just bought 1982 test equipment with perfectly good "rubycon' electro's. they test better (ESR vs. freq.) than my new Nichicons !
OS
I wish all caps sounded the same. I'd be interested if you bypassed one of these caps with something like a 0.01uf Vishay 1837 MKP and measured and listened. I think you'll find the correlation you hoped was there might not be as clear as anticipated. (I mention this cheap Vishay as its very small and £1 only but you can clearly here these added to most large electrolytic caps, power supply and signal coupling)
Hi ostripper,
Yes, I see similar things. I have three modern high end cap checkers plus the impedance test set for me HP 4195A. I can test them to 500 MHz (a pain!). My daily driver is a pair of HP 4192A and 4263A.
For your work, construction and dielectric would be the major variables from what I have found out. In audio, lower impedance coupling applications you only need a good quality cap. No, you cannot hear it. In high impedance applications again the dielectric comes into play. But the name on the outside doesn't change anything. The material and construction does.
Between good capacitors, you simply cannot hear any difference. Measured differences are generally well below our threshold of sensing, never mind clearly hearing anything. Given this thread is all about electrolytic capacitors we'll ignore film types. The basic Electrolytic has enough problems that they swamp individual differences unless you're comparing poor quality or defective types. I'm sorry, but anyone saying they can hear these differences are suffering from wishful thinking. That's between good capacitors of course. We easily measure differences between some every day, but in circuit the overall measured performance does not change enough to hear anything.
I have tried to hear differences for decades. As test equipment improved I was able to correlate what was heard to what you can measure. Guess what? It's pure physics folks.
Yes, I see similar things. I have three modern high end cap checkers plus the impedance test set for me HP 4195A. I can test them to 500 MHz (a pain!). My daily driver is a pair of HP 4192A and 4263A.
For your work, construction and dielectric would be the major variables from what I have found out. In audio, lower impedance coupling applications you only need a good quality cap. No, you cannot hear it. In high impedance applications again the dielectric comes into play. But the name on the outside doesn't change anything. The material and construction does.
Between good capacitors, you simply cannot hear any difference. Measured differences are generally well below our threshold of sensing, never mind clearly hearing anything. Given this thread is all about electrolytic capacitors we'll ignore film types. The basic Electrolytic has enough problems that they swamp individual differences unless you're comparing poor quality or defective types. I'm sorry, but anyone saying they can hear these differences are suffering from wishful thinking. That's between good capacitors of course. We easily measure differences between some every day, but in circuit the overall measured performance does not change enough to hear anything.
I have tried to hear differences for decades. As test equipment improved I was able to correlate what was heard to what you can measure. Guess what? It's pure physics folks.
Not the same except for the case and the machines they are made from.
Mundorf seems to have an electrolyte, etching, and/or anodization that’s different somehow.
Oh what we will pay for that extra tiny bit of silence, select harmonic profile, or whatever.
Hi IWC Doppel,
There is probably something else going on about the applications. Any measurement differences I have seen are within experimental error, like connections and lead layout. That's how far down I am seeing.
I have correlated what me and several "victim" subjects are hearing. I've been trying to figure out subjective opinion for four decades plus. Earlier differences were dead easy and backed up by what I could measure even back then. Anything that has been proved audible is easily measured these days especially. But it isn't just the part in question. It's the overall system, and things like it's position can affect the harmonic content. So you are not only testing the part, but it's installation.
What I have been saying is backed up by decades of experience and several people. It's also backed up by what we can measure these days and is unsurprisingly a science - physics. Sorry for sucking the romance out of it.
There is probably something else going on about the applications. Any measurement differences I have seen are within experimental error, like connections and lead layout. That's how far down I am seeing.
I have correlated what me and several "victim" subjects are hearing. I've been trying to figure out subjective opinion for four decades plus. Earlier differences were dead easy and backed up by what I could measure even back then. Anything that has been proved audible is easily measured these days especially. But it isn't just the part in question. It's the overall system, and things like it's position can affect the harmonic content. So you are not only testing the part, but it's installation.
What I have been saying is backed up by decades of experience and several people. It's also backed up by what we can measure these days and is unsurprisingly a science - physics. Sorry for sucking the romance out of it.
It's possible I am mad and have a very odd internal expectation bias for sure. But a recent experiment to finalise my AC coupling bypass cap options on the signal output from a BR player has proved really quite convoluted and isnt finished yet. I have experimented with bypass caps in addition to the 470uf starting point (Panasonic chose this seemingly high figure so I have just retained the value with alternative caps). I have a second player and until recently was able to easily swap boards to check progress. Now it's only really realistic (unless I unsolder as I have spread beyond the existing board) to compare to the stock player in full. The difference is marked between the two and although there is a linear power supply and different clocks the circuit is the same, only an increase in capacitance in some places and component changes. But returning to the coupling caps
My recent madness after expremineting the Cerafine, Silmic, Nichicon FG, settled on Silmic for the main cap 2 years ago has been looking at additional bypass caps in parallel, and in some cases more than one in parallel. I have listened to Arizona Blue 1uf, 0.22uf, Arizona Red 0.47uf, MICA 0.016uf, Vishay 1837 0.01uf, Jensen PIO 0.082uf. I write notes, have a number of reference tracks and whilst not always, I do bring the stock player out to compare (This does mean no room for the DSP to drive the subs, so I do mains only for this comparison). I am often disappointed, with a hope that the idea in mind, might bring Nirvana. The reason I mention is I added a Jensen PIO 0.082uf to the signal cap. That already has a 1uf Arizona and a MICA 0.016uf cap in parallel, which was a definite upgrade in this situation. So why did I try the Jensen, well I had some that had been used and I had read about combining the Arison Blue's with the Arizona Red's (all pepper in oil) and this provided a bit more ambiance and upper frequency projection. My set up is marginally darker than I would like, so what have I got to lose trying ??!!! (Hey if I was cleverer and had the inclination maybe I could model it in SPICE, but I'd still want to listen and I suspect finding all the appropriate information for an old cap would be tricky)
Anyway I'm rambling, so what happened with this addition. To avoid too many solder/desolder if it works I use small cable ties to attach to expose leads and this can allow me to try caps in and out several times and is useful, but a little fiddly. As this proved a little tricky I decided to give the Jensen a fairer trial and neatly soldered it in place. I left it in for 4-5 days and continually felt the same:
1. Seemed more recessed in rather than out
2. A good and natural tone to wooded instruments and voices
3. Bass weight seemed marginally increased, but bass seemed a little softer and a little smeared
4. Transients and dynamic transients also seemed to be reduced
So on this occasion I listened to the three current tracks, then turned the power to the player off and simply snipped the leads to the Jensens, powered up and replayed. I was correct they were better out than in and did roll off some higher frequency information and smear the bass. It's a 0.082 uf cap ?
Not sure I would have any resonance issues and not sure in this location it would be of any significance in any case. Maybe it's all in the mind, if so I am wholly lost as this means everything I listen to is now uncertain from speakers to amplifiers, acoustic panels, subwoofers and so on !
BTW I am about to measure a sweep from my two players using a USB trace to see what these traces look like out of interest. They do sound different, but then with 2 1/2 years of experimenting and some expensive caps in the drawer or player I am undoubtedly biased !
My recent madness after expremineting the Cerafine, Silmic, Nichicon FG, settled on Silmic for the main cap 2 years ago has been looking at additional bypass caps in parallel, and in some cases more than one in parallel. I have listened to Arizona Blue 1uf, 0.22uf, Arizona Red 0.47uf, MICA 0.016uf, Vishay 1837 0.01uf, Jensen PIO 0.082uf. I write notes, have a number of reference tracks and whilst not always, I do bring the stock player out to compare (This does mean no room for the DSP to drive the subs, so I do mains only for this comparison). I am often disappointed, with a hope that the idea in mind, might bring Nirvana. The reason I mention is I added a Jensen PIO 0.082uf to the signal cap. That already has a 1uf Arizona and a MICA 0.016uf cap in parallel, which was a definite upgrade in this situation. So why did I try the Jensen, well I had some that had been used and I had read about combining the Arison Blue's with the Arizona Red's (all pepper in oil) and this provided a bit more ambiance and upper frequency projection. My set up is marginally darker than I would like, so what have I got to lose trying ??!!! (Hey if I was cleverer and had the inclination maybe I could model it in SPICE, but I'd still want to listen and I suspect finding all the appropriate information for an old cap would be tricky)
Anyway I'm rambling, so what happened with this addition. To avoid too many solder/desolder if it works I use small cable ties to attach to expose leads and this can allow me to try caps in and out several times and is useful, but a little fiddly. As this proved a little tricky I decided to give the Jensen a fairer trial and neatly soldered it in place. I left it in for 4-5 days and continually felt the same:
1. Seemed more recessed in rather than out
2. A good and natural tone to wooded instruments and voices
3. Bass weight seemed marginally increased, but bass seemed a little softer and a little smeared
4. Transients and dynamic transients also seemed to be reduced
So on this occasion I listened to the three current tracks, then turned the power to the player off and simply snipped the leads to the Jensens, powered up and replayed. I was correct they were better out than in and did roll off some higher frequency information and smear the bass. It's a 0.082 uf cap ?
Not sure I would have any resonance issues and not sure in this location it would be of any significance in any case. Maybe it's all in the mind, if so I am wholly lost as this means everything I listen to is now uncertain from speakers to amplifiers, acoustic panels, subwoofers and so on !
BTW I am about to measure a sweep from my two players using a USB trace to see what these traces look like out of interest. They do sound different, but then with 2 1/2 years of experimenting and some expensive caps in the drawer or player I am undoubtedly biased !
I simply think that how something may sound to you using audiophile terms is too dependant on your mood and what is going on. Audio memory isn't great, certainly not to the level needed to prove anything but gross changes. You do get a sense of what can sound really good, but the changes you are talking about here are too small.
Your brain is the determining factor with these tests. It can and will trick you, confirmation bias is a hard enough thing to avoid when you are measuring stuff. Instruments are yardsticks and you need them. Without this, you have no idea where you are.
When I was developing mods for the Counterpoint SA-100, I kept three of them on-hand. One was always bone stock (where we came from). The next was the next best performing mod, the last was the current working unit. Each was measured at each stage, even the stock one to make certain it was still performing as it was. What we discovered here that really drove things home was that measured performance correlated to subjective improvements. Wow! They agreed. This also taught us a lot about audio memory. Basically, audio memory can't be trusted on it's own. Also, knowledge of what changed (or what I told them changed) played a determining role as to how something sounded. Hmmm, that you didn't want to hear.
We found the same things over time and several different situations. The one thing that was consistent was that your subjective opinion wasn't consistent. Not for small things. For larger changes - yes. But anything that was consistent with subjective opinion was easily measured.
Your brain is the determining factor with these tests. It can and will trick you, confirmation bias is a hard enough thing to avoid when you are measuring stuff. Instruments are yardsticks and you need them. Without this, you have no idea where you are.
When I was developing mods for the Counterpoint SA-100, I kept three of them on-hand. One was always bone stock (where we came from). The next was the next best performing mod, the last was the current working unit. Each was measured at each stage, even the stock one to make certain it was still performing as it was. What we discovered here that really drove things home was that measured performance correlated to subjective improvements. Wow! They agreed. This also taught us a lot about audio memory. Basically, audio memory can't be trusted on it's own. Also, knowledge of what changed (or what I told them changed) played a determining role as to how something sounded. Hmmm, that you didn't want to hear.
We found the same things over time and several different situations. The one thing that was consistent was that your subjective opinion wasn't consistent. Not for small things. For larger changes - yes. But anything that was consistent with subjective opinion was easily measured.
So yeah, a humans psychoacoustic memory has to be one of the least reliable, least scientific methods of determination ever conceived many argue that even a well constructed ABX test is inadequate (even with double blind db matched sources). Other factors include parts interaction (some part may work better together, determining this however brings up the same issues), cleanliness of the power source and according to some of our brothers the oxygen/crystal structure/capacitance of the cables. There is no spoon, nothing is ‘the best’ only perhaps ‘the best to you’ which according to psychology is also extremely likely to change over the many years of your life. Just like you cannot understand why people cannot hear difference in caps, I don’t understand why you think that epiphany would apply to anyone besides you?
Well, it isn't just me. Count countless industry reps and engineers over decades. People who work with this and live sound every day. All of it agrees.
It really does matter what sounds best to the individual. I have no issue with that. But the amount of hacking and destruction that goes on attempting to hear differences between things that don't make a difference is out of control. At the end, we have consistently found that better performing product is agreed generally to sound better than less well performing stuff. That's by measurements presented to people to hear subjectively.
My brother doesn't care for example. I got him a nice bluetooth speaker (> $500) and he's more than happy. Cool. But others like better stuff more than the average equipment. That's when it really is better.
For an audio shop, significant profits are centred on installing parts into gear that simply doesn't do anything. Most techs that do this work are not skilled and damage more than you can imagine. ... and they think they are great, never met one that didn't think they knew more than everyone except the people who KNEW they were scamming folks.
All boutique equipment generally performs less well , and sounds not as good as some mass market stuff that is designed and manufactured properly. Really, is there any surprise here? Every boutique brand centers around a "good story", a Genius who alone knows better, and what they do is a secret. So much of the audio industry actually depends on falsehoods. It's a dirty secret. Sure, today most mass market stuff is junk - but some isn't. Your average consumer is tired of getting ripped off, so they buy "lifestyle" product and simply opt out of hoping to find something good with decent value.
You can argue this up and down if you want, but a large portion of the audio market dollar-wise depends on equipment upgrades, changing coupling capacitors. So therefore some of the people here depend on this myth economically. Low hanging fruit. If you look at the charges, they are always higher than real service and the parts priced far beyond what they are actually worth. You tell me ...
Anything I have said is backed up by measurements and experience from individuals, experts and just plain folks over decades. Somehow do you think that there may be some truth to what I've said? I don't have an iron in this fire, and I often talk people out of upgrades when they don't help. That is me turning down a paycheck. So I am not economically motivated here one little bit.
It really does matter what sounds best to the individual. I have no issue with that. But the amount of hacking and destruction that goes on attempting to hear differences between things that don't make a difference is out of control. At the end, we have consistently found that better performing product is agreed generally to sound better than less well performing stuff. That's by measurements presented to people to hear subjectively.
My brother doesn't care for example. I got him a nice bluetooth speaker (> $500) and he's more than happy. Cool. But others like better stuff more than the average equipment. That's when it really is better.
For an audio shop, significant profits are centred on installing parts into gear that simply doesn't do anything. Most techs that do this work are not skilled and damage more than you can imagine. ... and they think they are great, never met one that didn't think they knew more than everyone except the people who KNEW they were scamming folks.
All boutique equipment generally performs less well , and sounds not as good as some mass market stuff that is designed and manufactured properly. Really, is there any surprise here? Every boutique brand centers around a "good story", a Genius who alone knows better, and what they do is a secret. So much of the audio industry actually depends on falsehoods. It's a dirty secret. Sure, today most mass market stuff is junk - but some isn't. Your average consumer is tired of getting ripped off, so they buy "lifestyle" product and simply opt out of hoping to find something good with decent value.
You can argue this up and down if you want, but a large portion of the audio market dollar-wise depends on equipment upgrades, changing coupling capacitors. So therefore some of the people here depend on this myth economically. Low hanging fruit. If you look at the charges, they are always higher than real service and the parts priced far beyond what they are actually worth. You tell me ...
Anything I have said is backed up by measurements and experience from individuals, experts and just plain folks over decades. Somehow do you think that there may be some truth to what I've said? I don't have an iron in this fire, and I often talk people out of upgrades when they don't help. That is me turning down a paycheck. So I am not economically motivated here one little bit.
Anatech I’m not talking smack about mods here, just like everyone else here I’m always looking out for a single cap swap that’s ‘transformational’ and I understand stories, snake oil and cap swaps drive a section of the industry (weather they should or not) my issue is how self-righteous people get with their epiphanies, even the most successful mods are often accidents or guesses which are then proselytized as if they are the word of god and you have to be an idiot not to agree.
Anatech, I think you're mixing up several things here. Faux audio design or a poor audio product is simply that and I have as much affinity to this as you I suspect.
I do agree satisfaction comes in different guises but that doesnt help the analysis of what satisfies you or me or anyone else.
I have been as or more analytical with assessment of many upgrades than I would buying a new unit like a CD player or pair of speakers. I don't know whether you feel the same about the whole audio chain. Should we all just listen to the kitchen radio and convince ourselves it's as good as live music and live happily ever after ? (I wish I could) Or perhaps simply measure then take comfort in these differences to seek satisfaction.
It's not that I don't think there is some correlation between measurements and results but I do think the whole picture and insight isn't answered that easily and listening is the final reckoning, not least because that is the whole purpose in any case.
How many people turn up to the audio shop with an oscilloscope and microphone I wonder or make a choice by measurement rather than listening ?
What if the measured results showing no difference lead you and others to convincing themselves there is no difference if we are that easily mislead ?
I'm playing devils advocate but the point I'm making is that for me the ultimate test is my ears and whilst I accept I can and do make mistakes that is perhaps less prone to measurement, it is the end game and what actually matters.
I agree there are plenty of poor or unperforming garbage products and 'accessories' which I have no interest in. There are also some 'high performing' and exemplary measuring products that sound dreadful. So for me the only way to steer though this is by listening and being acutely aware that judgement is harder than we might like.
I do agree satisfaction comes in different guises but that doesnt help the analysis of what satisfies you or me or anyone else.
I have been as or more analytical with assessment of many upgrades than I would buying a new unit like a CD player or pair of speakers. I don't know whether you feel the same about the whole audio chain. Should we all just listen to the kitchen radio and convince ourselves it's as good as live music and live happily ever after ? (I wish I could) Or perhaps simply measure then take comfort in these differences to seek satisfaction.
It's not that I don't think there is some correlation between measurements and results but I do think the whole picture and insight isn't answered that easily and listening is the final reckoning, not least because that is the whole purpose in any case.
How many people turn up to the audio shop with an oscilloscope and microphone I wonder or make a choice by measurement rather than listening ?
What if the measured results showing no difference lead you and others to convincing themselves there is no difference if we are that easily mislead ?
I'm playing devils advocate but the point I'm making is that for me the ultimate test is my ears and whilst I accept I can and do make mistakes that is perhaps less prone to measurement, it is the end game and what actually matters.
I agree there are plenty of poor or unperforming garbage products and 'accessories' which I have no interest in. There are also some 'high performing' and exemplary measuring products that sound dreadful. So for me the only way to steer though this is by listening and being acutely aware that judgement is harder than we might like.
I always heard different sound from my guitar amp each day I was on tour. But I never swapped any caps in the time in between. Nor did I change anything of my quite basic setup. The only thing that changed was my personal mood. Each day. Lesson learned.
or maybe the amp also was not proof to the quality of the main : voltage variation, noise on the lines ? I find also difficult to talk about electro pieces of equipment if the listener is not playing at the exact same position in the same room/area. Hifists do listen to always in the same chair, but things on the furnitures, nothing is changing than the mood indeed, the main line daily variation (up to 5% for instance in a good modern country on the book but often very few variation), and climatic conditions that apply after the speaker output.
I should see an analyst though cause most of the time I do not like Silmic II in a circuitry. I tried a lot, cause they were saying that's good but it never was for me or rarely in some rare situations.
I should see an analyst though cause most of the time I do not like Silmic II in a circuitry. I tried a lot, cause they were saying that's good but it never was for me or rarely in some rare situations.
I've been running Nelson's Adcom GFA-5500 into a pair of ads L980's for more than 2 decades now. My epiphany came when I rebuilt the ads crossovers with Jantzen & Solen metallized polypropylene caps from Parts Express. Didn't expect a damn bit of difference, but I was shocked. The clarity and separation of instruments was markedly improved.
