Hi Andy,
You are correct. However, you are looking at it from the entire chain point of view, from the mic or console to the room at home. If we look at things from what we can control, that means from the media we will "play" to the speakers and room, we have to accept what we have. So ... what to do? Well, control what we can. Anything else is quite insane. I can control the electronics. We can choose the loudspeaker system and room location and we do control the room when we buy the home and set the environment up. We hopefully strive for the best with every aspect. We must accept some limitations.
I miss the live events when I am not right there enjoying them. Now, do I refuse to listen to any form of reproduction? For me, no. I'll make the best of it. The auto experience is greatly inferior to the living room experience. Yet, I enjoy both of those. I think we look for and enjoy different aspects of the music depending on our environment, although the better it sounds the happier I am. This extends to the bedroom where that system is quite good, and my bench where again, the system is quite good (it has to be!).
Anyway, the truth I am talking about is the effect of various components and circuit designs. Those things aren't subject to interpretation that would differ from measured performance. Those two things actually do agree. You are correct in that when you have impairments, different people break into groups as to what they can accept or not. That pretty well describes early HiFi and speakers (remember east, west coast sounds, and the BBC sound?). But the more accurate a system is, the more people will agree they prefer it. This isn't a surprise, however people generally do prefer what they are accustomed to hearing.
Like I said, I think we pretty much do agree on things. We have our viewpoints and points of reference.
You are correct. However, you are looking at it from the entire chain point of view, from the mic or console to the room at home. If we look at things from what we can control, that means from the media we will "play" to the speakers and room, we have to accept what we have. So ... what to do? Well, control what we can. Anything else is quite insane. I can control the electronics. We can choose the loudspeaker system and room location and we do control the room when we buy the home and set the environment up. We hopefully strive for the best with every aspect. We must accept some limitations.
I miss the live events when I am not right there enjoying them. Now, do I refuse to listen to any form of reproduction? For me, no. I'll make the best of it. The auto experience is greatly inferior to the living room experience. Yet, I enjoy both of those. I think we look for and enjoy different aspects of the music depending on our environment, although the better it sounds the happier I am. This extends to the bedroom where that system is quite good, and my bench where again, the system is quite good (it has to be!).
Anyway, the truth I am talking about is the effect of various components and circuit designs. Those things aren't subject to interpretation that would differ from measured performance. Those two things actually do agree. You are correct in that when you have impairments, different people break into groups as to what they can accept or not. That pretty well describes early HiFi and speakers (remember east, west coast sounds, and the BBC sound?). But the more accurate a system is, the more people will agree they prefer it. This isn't a surprise, however people generally do prefer what they are accustomed to hearing.
Like I said, I think we pretty much do agree on things. We have our viewpoints and points of reference.
Wouldn't matter about how other species would perceive it because music is an indulgence created in human heads and played by humans with human made instruments. Conforms to our mental and sensory properties so its only as good as we can be. Music is basically a form of beauty. So satisfying to civilization that we even liked to believe its divine. More graphically so in the past... Muses were daughters of Zeus and Orpheus was a superhuman bard etc.
Hi Andy,
This is actually easy. However a person perceives a sound or performance, if you can reproduce that exactly it by definition sounds the same. If you get close, many still will not hear the difference. The ability of a person to hear falls out of the equation. I have several clients who vary greatly in hearing impairments, yet they all agree the more accurate devices or systems sound better, or more like a live performance when you have recorded live material. Yes, we both know well those recordings aren't even close to the actual event. But, these observers are accepting this and are just saying it sounds more like the live event.
We have the ability to hear music in our heads if previously experienced. Most possibly to also idealize it. Which has much to do with our hobby I suspect. Beethoven for instance was completely beyond acoustic considerations since he became deaf during his most creative years. He had it all composed played and recorded in his head. No personal use for that expensive replay bunch called an orchestra. Only tasked to communicate his creations to others.
yep a lot of musicians ear the note not the sound .....only tone freak guitarist as I'm I never mic my amp ,I haved used the The Twin ppp 6l6 100w, fix bias with two cone ,four wheel and 35kg for a pub fun...now I used ppp 6v6 at 120% dissipation only one year last
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First phrase: no I disagree, you involve exactly what you reproach to me.
I accept the truth, not partial one with one side that should not exist but many is hearing and no one rule 100%. That is a fact that should be called truth.
Opinion is exactly what all here as yourself and myself is talking about. Taste has an another meaning. We all agree caps answer to electronic laws. As far I know , any circuit is a filter az the signal output is not exactly equal to the input and some is hearing sometimessmall differences that are hard to rule just incolving the esr esl etc. It is not magic but just hard to quantify and to predict on demand cause each system differ at home alas.
Last phrase: so do I. But when missing something I do not involve other biass because I do not rule this corpus of knowledge at 100%. You are knowledgeable but your pinion is exactly not better than an other on the field of experiment. You just reduced the uncertainty.
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Hi diyiggy,
Well, a coupling capacitor is not a filter and does not have any signal voltage across it. The impedance is extremely low compared to the circuit it is in. Given this fact, a coupling capacitor (unless defective or unsuitable) does not affect the signal going through it. That means you will not hear it. This isn't opinion, it is fact backed up by measurements and listening by trained individuals.
Now I did say suitable capacitors - right? There are plenty of capacitors not well suited to the job. They can affect the signal, but you shouldn't be using them for starters. Some are intended for "audiophile use", that is marketing. There are other factors, such as physical size. I touched on that earlier so I won't repeat myself. This can affect what you hear, but in this case you are not hearing the capacitor alone. You are hearing other signals too.
We process signals to guide machines in manufacturing, guide aircraft (fly by wire), process control, life sciences (they keep you alive in the hospital). Space, satellites, cell phones. Many of these things require accuracy far in excess of what you can hear. So the long and short of it is this. Audio is worth very little in industry (we are not an important market at all!!!) All the parts we use came from industry, advances in parts came from industry. Problems with parts in certain applications were discovered in industry. It is all a science. Audio folk are just playing, and amusing branch of electronics.
It does take skill to get it right, and parts placement is important. So good audio designers are skilled, there are more hacks out there. They would never make it in industry. Some folks in DIY are extremely skilled, most are not. I respect those who are trying and doing their best to understand. There is a lot to know.
Understand I am not knocking audio enthusiasts at all, or DIY efforts. But. Some things are known for certain and all I can do is let people know. If you don't agree, that's cool but I am not simply offering an opinion. There are designers out there who know this stuff cold. They don't say much because the facts are self evident once you do understand. They just are not romantic.
It is romantic to think discoveries occur in garages by single brilliant people. Not any more. Today the subject is well known enough so to discover anything, you need a lab and appropriate equipment and that costs money. You also generally need a team of designers (engineers). So there is an "entry fee" to this world these days. Unpopular as heck, but it is the truth. So instead, people tell partial truths wound up with a nice story and you have .... an audio designer. This also occurs in the medical field and any other field where money can be made and most people do not understand how things really work.
Well, a coupling capacitor is not a filter and does not have any signal voltage across it. The impedance is extremely low compared to the circuit it is in. Given this fact, a coupling capacitor (unless defective or unsuitable) does not affect the signal going through it. That means you will not hear it. This isn't opinion, it is fact backed up by measurements and listening by trained individuals.
Now I did say suitable capacitors - right? There are plenty of capacitors not well suited to the job. They can affect the signal, but you shouldn't be using them for starters. Some are intended for "audiophile use", that is marketing. There are other factors, such as physical size. I touched on that earlier so I won't repeat myself. This can affect what you hear, but in this case you are not hearing the capacitor alone. You are hearing other signals too.
We process signals to guide machines in manufacturing, guide aircraft (fly by wire), process control, life sciences (they keep you alive in the hospital). Space, satellites, cell phones. Many of these things require accuracy far in excess of what you can hear. So the long and short of it is this. Audio is worth very little in industry (we are not an important market at all!!!) All the parts we use came from industry, advances in parts came from industry. Problems with parts in certain applications were discovered in industry. It is all a science. Audio folk are just playing, and amusing branch of electronics.
It does take skill to get it right, and parts placement is important. So good audio designers are skilled, there are more hacks out there. They would never make it in industry. Some folks in DIY are extremely skilled, most are not. I respect those who are trying and doing their best to understand. There is a lot to know.
Understand I am not knocking audio enthusiasts at all, or DIY efforts. But. Some things are known for certain and all I can do is let people know. If you don't agree, that's cool but I am not simply offering an opinion. There are designers out there who know this stuff cold. They don't say much because the facts are self evident once you do understand. They just are not romantic.
It is romantic to think discoveries occur in garages by single brilliant people. Not any more. Today the subject is well known enough so to discover anything, you need a lab and appropriate equipment and that costs money. You also generally need a team of designers (engineers). So there is an "entry fee" to this world these days. Unpopular as heck, but it is the truth. So instead, people tell partial truths wound up with a nice story and you have .... an audio designer. This also occurs in the medical field and any other field where money can be made and most people do not understand how things really work.
" That means you will not hear it. This isn't opinion, it is fact backed up by measurements and listening by trained individuals."
I have to say my experience simply does match this logic, I have changed perfectly good designed for purpose coupling capacitors and heard large differences with others that are equally fit for purpose.
I am sure you could argue the physics and electronic specification differences between metalised PP, PE, teflon, PIO, Copper, silver, tinned, silk, etc, but wether you can measure these to sufficient distinction is not so clear, but maybe you can?
However the sound signature of these is hard to refute and easy to hear irrespective of training, although I am not familiar with a training program designed for improved listening capability (other than simply through experience)
Wether you can hear something is by it's nature subjective opinion, and if you can do this by blind repeated comparisons then this perhaps makes it factual opinion
I have to say my experience simply does match this logic, I have changed perfectly good designed for purpose coupling capacitors and heard large differences with others that are equally fit for purpose.
I am sure you could argue the physics and electronic specification differences between metalised PP, PE, teflon, PIO, Copper, silver, tinned, silk, etc, but wether you can measure these to sufficient distinction is not so clear, but maybe you can?
However the sound signature of these is hard to refute and easy to hear irrespective of training, although I am not familiar with a training program designed for improved listening capability (other than simply through experience)
Wether you can hear something is by it's nature subjective opinion, and if you can do this by blind repeated comparisons then this perhaps makes it factual opinion
Hi IWC,
In DC blocking applications, there is no signal voltage across the capacitor. With CD players (except tube and some solid state), your average DC output level you are blocking is in the mV. I do upgrade CD players. Coupling capacitors do not make a great deal of difference unless the old ones were poor quality or simply defective. Both by measurements and listening tests. I am exceedingly careful about upgrades. Now, this is assuming the original parts were suited to the application and in good condition.
I have often had to "unmod" a CD player (and just about everything like tuners). My findings are that when certain "audiophile approved parts" are used, going to good quality parts always improves things. Normally the audio parts are over-sized, I often find broken traces and pads as well. I do use very good parts, and I know what to test for that correlates to "good sound".
The secret? Other parts and matching. Coupling capacitors are generally the least sensitive thing you can do.
-Chris
In DC blocking applications, there is no signal voltage across the capacitor. With CD players (except tube and some solid state), your average DC output level you are blocking is in the mV. I do upgrade CD players. Coupling capacitors do not make a great deal of difference unless the old ones were poor quality or simply defective. Both by measurements and listening tests. I am exceedingly careful about upgrades. Now, this is assuming the original parts were suited to the application and in good condition.
I have often had to "unmod" a CD player (and just about everything like tuners). My findings are that when certain "audiophile approved parts" are used, going to good quality parts always improves things. Normally the audio parts are over-sized, I often find broken traces and pads as well. I do use very good parts, and I know what to test for that correlates to "good sound".
The secret? Other parts and matching. Coupling capacitors are generally the least sensitive thing you can do.
-Chris
Hi tonescout,
That's fine. I have nearly 50 years in audio and trying to make things sound better. Feel free to disagree with me.
The largest difference in some of those capacitor types is physical size and you run into other issues you are probably not accounting for. That's fine too. Other characteristics I have measured and know what to test for. Silver doesn't do anything except affect your thinking by the way. Silk and other things are inert, so the wind tension makes a bigger difference (and consistency of same). So many factors, so many red herrings.
The biggest problem in this industry is that your mind plays a much bigger factor in what you hear. It's easy to transfer expectations to others without knowing it (which is why the ABX tests exist). Opinion is probably the least reliable way to try and figure things out, the psychology is well known. Advertisers work on this, which is why it has been so well researched.
Over decades, and I mean decades, or careful listening, then listening to unbiased reports from customers and "victims" (I modify or not, and do not tell people what was done). People who help me are now completely unbiased because they know there is no expectation anything was done. That's the only way listening tests are useful at all. I never assess my own work. What I have discovered agrees completely with the scientific community and the test and measurement field. You have to agree there is no room for opinion when the answer is the answer, and it needs to be verified by other labs in the world.
I am well aware that what I have said is wildly unpopular.
That's fine. I have nearly 50 years in audio and trying to make things sound better. Feel free to disagree with me.
The largest difference in some of those capacitor types is physical size and you run into other issues you are probably not accounting for. That's fine too. Other characteristics I have measured and know what to test for. Silver doesn't do anything except affect your thinking by the way. Silk and other things are inert, so the wind tension makes a bigger difference (and consistency of same). So many factors, so many red herrings.
The biggest problem in this industry is that your mind plays a much bigger factor in what you hear. It's easy to transfer expectations to others without knowing it (which is why the ABX tests exist). Opinion is probably the least reliable way to try and figure things out, the psychology is well known. Advertisers work on this, which is why it has been so well researched.
Over decades, and I mean decades, or careful listening, then listening to unbiased reports from customers and "victims" (I modify or not, and do not tell people what was done). People who help me are now completely unbiased because they know there is no expectation anything was done. That's the only way listening tests are useful at all. I never assess my own work. What I have discovered agrees completely with the scientific community and the test and measurement field. You have to agree there is no room for opinion when the answer is the answer, and it needs to be verified by other labs in the world.
I am well aware that what I have said is wildly unpopular.
We absolutely don't agree, I'm afraid. You are saying "whatever measures the most accurately will be the best part and people will prefer it". For a start "people" is vague, we don't have a proper group of subjects or a control group or anything that would pass as solid data. This is simply anecdotal.
I've already gone into detail over how I set up listening tests and what demo tracks I use - acoustic instruments I'm very familiar with such as brass, woodwind, concert grand piano, operatic and jazz voices, drumkit etc. And the fact that I judge components of any kind on the basis of tonality and clarity as compared with live acoustic instruments which I know well.
How my preferences as a trained musician agree with your measured data I have absolutely no idea, and this is something we'll never know. I'd suggest also that I know a lot more about what I'm assessing in terms of acoustic instruments than either you, your female friends or your selection of children.
So whatever you are calling "truth" here, I simply don't buy it, and certainly not in the way you have been presenting it here.
Hi IWC,
Yes, they will use the minimum number of skews, or part types they need to track and stock. That reduces your costs.
Now, some brands use terrible parts while others use parts that are perfectly fine. Generally speaking, the higher the rated voltage in an electrolytic part, and the larger the case (within reason and everything else held equal), the better the performance is of that part. Now of course, the part has to fit without being jammed against other parts as you run into other issues.
Is your player is a MASH unit? I didn't see details with a quick look, but the main focus is video. I saw some details on the power supply, but actual construction means more. The basic design is what you have to deal with. That may or may not limit the amount of improvement you can make in it.
Yes, they will use the minimum number of skews, or part types they need to track and stock. That reduces your costs.
Now, some brands use terrible parts while others use parts that are perfectly fine. Generally speaking, the higher the rated voltage in an electrolytic part, and the larger the case (within reason and everything else held equal), the better the performance is of that part. Now of course, the part has to fit without being jammed against other parts as you run into other issues.
Is your player is a MASH unit? I didn't see details with a quick look, but the main focus is video. I saw some details on the power supply, but actual construction means more. The basic design is what you have to deal with. That may or may not limit the amount of improvement you can make in it.
Anatech, hi
I totally get the fact that we are easily fooled, want to believe one way or another and capable of being mislead. We may and clearly do draw different conclusions when we go in open minded about potential differences
Where I think there is a risk of being closed and not so open is endeavouring to believe and expect that the measurements correlate directly to what we hear and in some cases are relevant at all. Music as we know is very transient and not static so some tests just assess if it will or won't fail and not how it performs dynamically
As an engineer in a past life I could perform FEA on an engine component and be very comfortable it would perform and not fail statically and dynamically, but this tells me nothing about the inertia and power consumption to accelerate and so on.
I'm not sure we have the perfect test to show sonic performance to measured performance, THD was praised and is no doubt useful but many low THD amplifiers sound erm rubbish !
I totally get the fact that we are easily fooled, want to believe one way or another and capable of being mislead. We may and clearly do draw different conclusions when we go in open minded about potential differences
Where I think there is a risk of being closed and not so open is endeavouring to believe and expect that the measurements correlate directly to what we hear and in some cases are relevant at all. Music as we know is very transient and not static so some tests just assess if it will or won't fail and not how it performs dynamically
As an engineer in a past life I could perform FEA on an engine component and be very comfortable it would perform and not fail statically and dynamically, but this tells me nothing about the inertia and power consumption to accelerate and so on.
I'm not sure we have the perfect test to show sonic performance to measured performance, THD was praised and is no doubt useful but many low THD amplifiers sound erm rubbish !
"Your testing obviously isn't even close to mine. What I see agrees with subjective opinion and I do work with musicians".
We assess components in different ways and with different skill sets. We've already established this.
Your statements about your work "agreeing with subjective opinion" is absolutely meaningless - it's purely anecdotal and based on a random selection of women, children and whatever. Maybe you know musicians, maybe you work with musicians, but I am a conservatoire trained professional musician with 60 years experience of playing live gigs onstage and in recording studios (Abbey Rd. etc). Not even remotely comparable.
Anyway, back to selecting capacitors. I've contributed several posts about the types of capacitors I've tried, which is the point of the thread. I think we've had quite enough of this debate about measured versus auditioned capacitors, to the point where we're simply going round in circles.
We assess components in different ways and with different skill sets. We've already established this.
Your statements about your work "agreeing with subjective opinion" is absolutely meaningless - it's purely anecdotal and based on a random selection of women, children and whatever. Maybe you know musicians, maybe you work with musicians, but I am a conservatoire trained professional musician with 60 years experience of playing live gigs onstage and in recording studios (Abbey Rd. etc). Not even remotely comparable.
Anyway, back to selecting capacitors. I've contributed several posts about the types of capacitors I've tried, which is the point of the thread. I think we've had quite enough of this debate about measured versus auditioned capacitors, to the point where we're simply going round in circles.
anatech,
Thanks for the reasonable reply
I come from a science background, and for a period of my life was a senior lecturer at a University in Engineering, and I ran the consultancy for the department. I have patented and built a business out of inventing a new material composition. In both of these worlds the answer is well sort of the answer most of the time; so I understand the need for test an development rigour.
However, I listen to reproduced music for pleasure alone, and I do use some testing but only to help understand things a little better. I hear differences that correlate to others who share the listening with me at various points, and usually there is a lot of agreement on any changes to the sound irrespective of prompting or not.
It would be a whole lot easier if small changes to individual components did not make a differences, (often against the marketing or even scientific logic) but to my ears those pesky resistors, capacitors and diodes all change the sound a little, and sometimes a lot!
Thanks for the reasonable reply
I come from a science background, and for a period of my life was a senior lecturer at a University in Engineering, and I ran the consultancy for the department. I have patented and built a business out of inventing a new material composition. In both of these worlds the answer is well sort of the answer most of the time; so I understand the need for test an development rigour.
However, I listen to reproduced music for pleasure alone, and I do use some testing but only to help understand things a little better. I hear differences that correlate to others who share the listening with me at various points, and usually there is a lot of agreement on any changes to the sound irrespective of prompting or not.
It would be a whole lot easier if small changes to individual components did not make a differences, (often against the marketing or even scientific logic) but to my ears those pesky resistors, capacitors and diodes all change the sound a little, and sometimes a lot!