<< i am more interested in how things work, not how they sound
I'm sure we are all in this because of a passion for how things work and for building stuff and doing endless experiments. You can't build electronics without knowing a fair bit about how they work. And hats off to all the master engineers and designers who show us the way with their skills.
But for some of us the goal is to make acoustic instruments sound as close to live acoustic instruments as possible. So our audition tracks are orchestras, small groups and voices, not rock bands where the instruments are already amplified and processed, and we don't listen for things like "bass slam". I'm a double bass player and double basses don't "slam", they have very subtle natural overtones. Joy for me is hearing instruments like bassoons, clarinets, string sections, Steinway pianos and Zildjian cymbals sounding spookily like the real thing, just as if you were on the stage right next to them.
I'm sure we are all in this because of a passion for how things work and for building stuff and doing endless experiments. You can't build electronics without knowing a fair bit about how they work. And hats off to all the master engineers and designers who show us the way with their skills.
But for some of us the goal is to make acoustic instruments sound as close to live acoustic instruments as possible. So our audition tracks are orchestras, small groups and voices, not rock bands where the instruments are already amplified and processed, and we don't listen for things like "bass slam". I'm a double bass player and double basses don't "slam", they have very subtle natural overtones. Joy for me is hearing instruments like bassoons, clarinets, string sections, Steinway pianos and Zildjian cymbals sounding spookily like the real thing, just as if you were on the stage right next to them.
Muse ES are far too shouty on voices. The most natural electrolytic on voices is probably the Silmic, to my ears. Shame it has this shut-in tonality and doesn't sound more open and lively. It's a frustrating cap with equal virtues and drawbacks. What it does well it does better than almost all of the Nichicons. But it's hard to live with its drawbacks when DC Links are an option.
I have spent many years playing live and standing close to drumkits in practice spaces. In my subjective evaluations ("listening") one of the things I specifically listen to is reproduction of cymbals. I feel I have never ever heard a reproduction anywhere that was even close to the real thing.
Would you mind describing a system that does that?
Wow - a difficult question to answer, schiirrn. I've been playing live jazz right next to drumkits for over 50 years and I agree with you completely - a live drumkit is an appalling demand of a sound system. I can't think of anything that comes close to the real thing. Large panel speakers especially ribbons can get the shimmer of cymbals, and some percussion can be very detailed, but you miss the dynamics. Otherwise you need a very good tweeter for cymbals. This is my test track for cymbals - Jack de Johnette with Keith Jarrett. I get a kick when it's even close but it's never perfect.
Ok. Reading it again I think I misunderstood your post I took the quote from. "Joy for me is hearing .... just as if you were on the stage right next to them." wasn't a description of something you experienced but you strife to experience in a replay system?
Currently I'm using Goto 160BL tweeters in my main system. They come close to the overtone spectrum of real cymbals. Dynamics is what I miss most in any system and any recording I ever heard. The closest thing I got so far was from shellac records. Just a pity that the music available on uncompressed shellac isn't my cup of tea....
as early as 1980 it is known that, biasing the ecaps with voltage gives good results...i believe it was mentioned in the Audio article, Picking caps....
schiirrm - yes exactly, joy is when I get even some of the qualities of cymbals, not everything but a sound that captures the characteristics as much as possible.
<< nothing beats being there during the actual performance....
Live music on acoustic instruments has a very special quality. It's just incredibly natural and smooth. It's not hi-fi or exaggerated in any way and there's no added odd order distortions. It's a lot about what "isn't there" in the failings of hi-fi systems. Take away the glare, the edginess and the loss of detail and what's left is just very natural. Even unremarkable in some ways.
<< nothing beats being there during the actual performance....
Live music on acoustic instruments has a very special quality. It's just incredibly natural and smooth. It's not hi-fi or exaggerated in any way and there's no added odd order distortions. It's a lot about what "isn't there" in the failings of hi-fi systems. Take away the glare, the edginess and the loss of detail and what's left is just very natural. Even unremarkable in some ways.
98,4% would find such a system; dead, boring, un-musical - yes unwanted... ;-)
It is my goal...
//
Hi Andy,
Just so you know, I did Sound and Lighting, live sound, worked in recording studios (major ones) and serviced the equipment musicians used. They would often play for a bit when picking up their equipment - for my wife and daughters. I love live sound and that includes orchestral events. I have a far deeper connection to the creation of music than you may have realised. That is one reason I have a passion for recreating things as accurately as I can.
There is nothing like the emotion a great musician puts into his/her playing when alone and playing for the enjoyment of it. I've had famous musicians play for just a couple of us. Also, there is a vast difference between servicing a musical instrument or guitar amp and a reproduction system (home audio system). You really don't want to affect the desired performance that was recorded. I don't think I'm wrong here. Those musicians do agree with me by the way. As do the engineers and producers, but then they admit it's up to the listener (but why do they then put in the effort?).
Remember, our systems are there to reproduce the mix, not as tone controls. Mind you, there is nothing stopping anyone from following their preference, but it is when they push that point of view on others who really simply want to have the best sound possible ... well at that point another point of view may be helpful to regain balance.
Just so you know, I did Sound and Lighting, live sound, worked in recording studios (major ones) and serviced the equipment musicians used. They would often play for a bit when picking up their equipment - for my wife and daughters. I love live sound and that includes orchestral events. I have a far deeper connection to the creation of music than you may have realised. That is one reason I have a passion for recreating things as accurately as I can.
There is nothing like the emotion a great musician puts into his/her playing when alone and playing for the enjoyment of it. I've had famous musicians play for just a couple of us. Also, there is a vast difference between servicing a musical instrument or guitar amp and a reproduction system (home audio system). You really don't want to affect the desired performance that was recorded. I don't think I'm wrong here. Those musicians do agree with me by the way. As do the engineers and producers, but then they admit it's up to the listener (but why do they then put in the effort?).
Remember, our systems are there to reproduce the mix, not as tone controls. Mind you, there is nothing stopping anyone from following their preference, but it is when they push that point of view on others who really simply want to have the best sound possible ... well at that point another point of view may be helpful to regain balance.
the mix are tone control..... no ones sound as my gibson direct on my tube amp ,I do full luthier + amp work ----
Well, in that case we both have a passion for recreating things as accurately as we can - we agree on that. Accurate in my case is the sound of acoustic instruments as close as possible to how they sound live. The best guy I ever knew for reproducing live instruments in a studio was Jan-Erik Kongshaug in Oslo, who recorded a lot of the ECM catalogue. One of the main reasons he was so good was because he was himself a very good guitarist.
It's nothing to do with emotion in my case - that's in the performance - it's the natural acoustic tone quality that has to be reproduced.
I don't know where "tone controls" come into this - nothing to do with me unless it's my stage amp if I'm playing amplified, but that's another story.