Hi IWC,
Yes, THD wasn't totally useful as an indicator back in the day. For two reasons. One we could only see down -80 dB at best in the early 1980's, and we were not looking at the spectrum. So THD readings got a bad knock (deserved because some carried that number as a be all and end all). It wasn't even close. It was helpful taken with other things and listening tests were extremely important with incomplete information. This is where resistance to measurements began and now persists even though we are long past those limitations. Early on I was looking at the residual output with a spectrum analyser. Not many did that. Today we easily see -30 dB and well beyond the ability of the human body to perceive. Similarly, IMD testing taken to the same limits tells you a great deal. I use both those basic tests in addition to listening tests. I will say you still need to know how to interpret the spectrum displays. Those instruments are not cheap, but I have one.
Mind you, something that didn't measure well for THD wasn't good period. Another thing might sound better that didn't test as good, but neither was good. Rather the best of a bad lot. I found that if it sounded good and the THD measured well (or better), you were at least on your way to a good amplifier.
Yes, something like an amplifier can run into trouble when actually delivering current to a real load. No other signal device deals with this. Power supplies do matter though in signal devices. For chuckles, I run interesting amplifiers on my PSB stratus Gold (originals). 4 ohm, 86 dB/watt - so not real easy to drive. I like things loud at times! Some amplifiers are very unhappy and you can hear that. So this is like your jet engine example. Stick the thing in real life and see what happens. I will say one thing. If it doesn't behave on the bench, it will not on a real load. So the test bench is really the first hurdle.
Yes, THD wasn't totally useful as an indicator back in the day. For two reasons. One we could only see down -80 dB at best in the early 1980's, and we were not looking at the spectrum. So THD readings got a bad knock (deserved because some carried that number as a be all and end all). It wasn't even close. It was helpful taken with other things and listening tests were extremely important with incomplete information. This is where resistance to measurements began and now persists even though we are long past those limitations. Early on I was looking at the residual output with a spectrum analyser. Not many did that. Today we easily see -30 dB and well beyond the ability of the human body to perceive. Similarly, IMD testing taken to the same limits tells you a great deal. I use both those basic tests in addition to listening tests. I will say you still need to know how to interpret the spectrum displays. Those instruments are not cheap, but I have one.
Mind you, something that didn't measure well for THD wasn't good period. Another thing might sound better that didn't test as good, but neither was good. Rather the best of a bad lot. I found that if it sounded good and the THD measured well (or better), you were at least on your way to a good amplifier.
Yes, something like an amplifier can run into trouble when actually delivering current to a real load. No other signal device deals with this. Power supplies do matter though in signal devices. For chuckles, I run interesting amplifiers on my PSB stratus Gold (originals). 4 ohm, 86 dB/watt - so not real easy to drive. I like things loud at times! Some amplifiers are very unhappy and you can hear that. So this is like your jet engine example. Stick the thing in real life and see what happens. I will say one thing. If it doesn't behave on the bench, it will not on a real load. So the test bench is really the first hurdle.
Hi tonescout,
Thanks. I am reasonable I think, as are you.
I listen for pleasure as well. My hobby also being my profession (it's not always a good thing for business reasons!).
Yes, some components can make a difference. But you have to be careful there isn't something else going on as well. It's very difficult to sort things out at times. Then, when is different, better? That takes time to sort out and some never do. I simply use all the tools at my disposal to try and figure things out. Just like everyone else.
Thanks. I am reasonable I think, as are you.
I listen for pleasure as well. My hobby also being my profession (it's not always a good thing for business reasons!).
Yes, some components can make a difference. But you have to be careful there isn't something else going on as well. It's very difficult to sort things out at times. Then, when is different, better? That takes time to sort out and some never do. I simply use all the tools at my disposal to try and figure things out. Just like everyone else.
Hi Andy,
No problem.
Defined, professional listening panels are polluted by the very industry they serve. The best you can do is look at a cross section of individuals who do not read anything in audio. Most are very good at picking out what sounds good or natural.
My family plays instruments as do I. Big deal. Some musicians are poor judges of sound quality, others are excellent. Just like the population. I have found out that the less an individual (yep! poorly defined, but accurate nonetheless) knows about the audio industry and advertising, the less bias they have and you get an honest opinion.
Anyway, happy to drop this.
No problem.
Defined, professional listening panels are polluted by the very industry they serve. The best you can do is look at a cross section of individuals who do not read anything in audio. Most are very good at picking out what sounds good or natural.
My family plays instruments as do I. Big deal. Some musicians are poor judges of sound quality, others are excellent. Just like the population. I have found out that the less an individual (yep! poorly defined, but accurate nonetheless) knows about the audio industry and advertising, the less bias they have and you get an honest opinion.
Anyway, happy to drop this.
"The best you can do is look at a cross section of individuals who do not read anything in audio. Most are very good at picking out what sounds good or natural. I have found out that the less an individual knows about the audio industry and advertising, the less bias they have and you get an honest opinion."
So you think non-musicians are better at assessing acoustic instruments than musicians who use them every day of their lives? On what basis can they assess if one cor anglais is reproduced more naturally than another? How do they distinguish between a Steinway and a Bechstein? On what basis do they know what is "natural" in the tone quality of a bassoon? You mean they have some invisible route towards "good" that musicians are unaware of, and that their heartwarming "honesty" gives them magical skills in assessing the intricacies of the world of music?
This is beyond bizarre, I'm dumbfounded. I can hardly think of any way this makes any sense whatever, unless you're a conspiracy theorist and see bias wherever you look. This is well on the way towards "all components sound the same, and if you believe you can hear differences it's purely because your mind is deceiving you".
So you think non-musicians are better at assessing acoustic instruments than musicians who use them every day of their lives? On what basis can they assess if one cor anglais is reproduced more naturally than another? How do they distinguish between a Steinway and a Bechstein? On what basis do they know what is "natural" in the tone quality of a bassoon? You mean they have some invisible route towards "good" that musicians are unaware of, and that their heartwarming "honesty" gives them magical skills in assessing the intricacies of the world of music?
This is beyond bizarre, I'm dumbfounded. I can hardly think of any way this makes any sense whatever, unless you're a conspiracy theorist and see bias wherever you look. This is well on the way towards "all components sound the same, and if you believe you can hear differences it's purely because your mind is deceiving you".
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Hi Andy,
Given I know both types of people well, I'm not going to argue the point. Some musicians are very in tune with their instruments, I'd say most are. But among people who really enjoy music and attend live performances, some of those people are also really tuned in.
In addition there is more to music than the exact sound of a particular instrument people enjoy and listen for. Once you record it, there are several objectionable things that can happen to the sound, and some are sensitive to that. So it isn't being able to pick out a specific brand or make of instrument, and in the case of some, the exact instrument. It is also about being able to pick out the least molested recordings and reproductions.
If you want to debate on your specific grounds, I am not interested. What my intent is, is to try and inform people of some of the dangers of altering equipment and what to be careful of, and the fact that certain components really do not affect sound quality (within reason of course!). Talking about the live sound is too abstracted for this discussion and is more of an attack on how things are recorded and processed. We are dealing with the reproduction of the recorded product and nothing else. Want to talk live sound? Cool, the same principles apply fully. Want to talk about what makes a certain guitar amp sound the way it does - well hey! There is an entirely different subject! Different rules apply.
Given I know both types of people well, I'm not going to argue the point. Some musicians are very in tune with their instruments, I'd say most are. But among people who really enjoy music and attend live performances, some of those people are also really tuned in.
In addition there is more to music than the exact sound of a particular instrument people enjoy and listen for. Once you record it, there are several objectionable things that can happen to the sound, and some are sensitive to that. So it isn't being able to pick out a specific brand or make of instrument, and in the case of some, the exact instrument. It is also about being able to pick out the least molested recordings and reproductions.
If you want to debate on your specific grounds, I am not interested. What my intent is, is to try and inform people of some of the dangers of altering equipment and what to be careful of, and the fact that certain components really do not affect sound quality (within reason of course!). Talking about the live sound is too abstracted for this discussion and is more of an attack on how things are recorded and processed. We are dealing with the reproduction of the recorded product and nothing else. Want to talk live sound? Cool, the same principles apply fully. Want to talk about what makes a certain guitar amp sound the way it does - well hey! There is an entirely different subject! Different rules apply.
Yes I agree. I am not talking of Vaudoo. When I talked about filter I was meaning about the notion of "something altered, changed" because it is on the path.
Since there are subttle differences for instance between two mkp in a loudspeaker filter -for illustration- , people like to play with this small margin to adapt their taste and make compensation. Of course this is very few in relation to what is involved in the whole design. Icing on the cake - it doesn't make the cake for sure-
What people humbly do by caps rolling - assuming they are ablle to choose the rigth dielectric, capacitance, voltage, inductance, ESR and so on, is to introduce a subbtle change that does not break the design but make compensation. But one that can be pleasing in the unique hifi system of the owner when hearing the sound from the loudspeaker. It is just tunning and a system may not need that at all. It is indeed modest tunning in the basement of the owner, not a redesign.
But I insist onthe fact the difference occurs, sometimes good enough to make a difference for the better. Sometimes worse also (and here you can involve the concept of "selfbiass"). But because a hifi system is a mix of gears and people are not abble to design from scratch their whole hifi system, they introduce changes where they can easily do it whatever it is is subttle changes. And so the talks about cables, caps, resistors. But anyway they introduce sometimes changes for a better result. It is not biass, it is just modest changes that can improve sometimes. They do not become engineer because of that.
And some gears are better designed than others when cost is involved and passive parts not always chose for their quality but cost if mass market product.
And if needing a fix because old gear, I do not see why people could not test two same caps of two different makers t check if they like one more, assuming his system is transparent enough to hear that small change. His time, his monney, his system. No one talks about reiventing the wheel.
But I insist : I really DISLIKE Elna Silmic II ! 🙂
We clearly live in completely different worlds. I have nothing to do with commercial equipment because I design and build everything myself, so no mission there.
Live sound is completely relevant, and in fact is my whole mission in building amplifiers. Over a period of 15 years I have done endless experiments, many of which I've documented here with circuit diagrams, to find a combination of tubes and other parts that gives a result as close as possible to live instruments. And I think I have finally achieved that with 10Y into 2a3, all DHT and SE with a 1:4 step-up in front. Just 2 stages, all-DHT. I've done big shootouts of PSU caps, coupling caps and cathode bypass caps and the result is teflon coupling caps, DC Link cathode bypasses and DC Link and PIO PSU caps. Transformers are amorphous core where possible. That's 15 years of endlessly building, modifying, re-building, trying out dozens and dozens of tubes and parts and never being satisfied until the sound is close to the live music I love and play. I don't regret a moment of it - it's been a creative journey full of surprises and with the joy of beautiful, natural music at the end of the rainbow.
I have several audio buddies and we share the same passion for building stuff as close to the state of the art as possible. Most are non musicians but they all love music. All very good friends. I have to say, though, that my oldest and closest friend are all musicians. That's always been my real world and my true magic. I do a lot of songwriting as well - that's another passion. I did composition and arranging at my conservatoire alongside the double bass. It was a good time and my co-students included Annie Lennox, Simon Rattle, Joe Jackson and Irvine Arditti amongst others. Many good memories.
Hi diyiggy,
Hey, no problem at all.
I restore older equipment, improve performance and resurrect destroyed / damaged units that others have serviced or attempted to improve. I get a steady diet of this stuff. I also design new equipment and improve or assess new or current equipment.
The problem with testing is the methodology, and the equipment. It also takes knowledge to assess the capacitor data sheet and make sure the conditions are the same in the installation. I have LCR meters (horribly expensive) that I can adjust the test signal level and frequency (5 Hz to 500 MHz) as well as DC bias. What you want to do is weed out the unsuitable capacitors before you test by ear if possible, then do your tests. You pretty much have to test the parts under the conditions you will use them in if they are different from the test conditions in the data sheet. Most often they are markedly different.
A capacitor used in a speaker crossover experiences completely different conditions than a signal path capacitor. One cap doesn't do everything well. Design is also about compromise, because capacitors have both positive and negative characteristics depending on what you are doing.
Anyway, just be aware of the problems of listening by ear. Try to be very careful when changing things and do not damage equipment. I always hear "I bought it cheap" or "it was given to me so I don't want to spend any money on it". The problem is that sometimes it is excellent equipment and it is a crying shame when someone doesn't understand what it is and they cause damage. Then throw it out. Equipment is not worth what you can buy one for used. You're buying something with similar problems and maybe rougher condition. Something nice is worth a great deal more, just try and buy something current with that performance and build quality that will last 40 years. Now what is it worth?
Hey, no problem at all.
I restore older equipment, improve performance and resurrect destroyed / damaged units that others have serviced or attempted to improve. I get a steady diet of this stuff. I also design new equipment and improve or assess new or current equipment.
The problem with testing is the methodology, and the equipment. It also takes knowledge to assess the capacitor data sheet and make sure the conditions are the same in the installation. I have LCR meters (horribly expensive) that I can adjust the test signal level and frequency (5 Hz to 500 MHz) as well as DC bias. What you want to do is weed out the unsuitable capacitors before you test by ear if possible, then do your tests. You pretty much have to test the parts under the conditions you will use them in if they are different from the test conditions in the data sheet. Most often they are markedly different.
A capacitor used in a speaker crossover experiences completely different conditions than a signal path capacitor. One cap doesn't do everything well. Design is also about compromise, because capacitors have both positive and negative characteristics depending on what you are doing.
Anyway, just be aware of the problems of listening by ear. Try to be very careful when changing things and do not damage equipment. I always hear "I bought it cheap" or "it was given to me so I don't want to spend any money on it". The problem is that sometimes it is excellent equipment and it is a crying shame when someone doesn't understand what it is and they cause damage. Then throw it out. Equipment is not worth what you can buy one for used. You're buying something with similar problems and maybe rougher condition. Something nice is worth a great deal more, just try and buy something current with that performance and build quality that will last 40 years. Now what is it worth?
Hi Andy,
I design and build equipment myself also.
Commercial equipment is often designed very well (depends on make) and a group of engineers will do a better job than an individual. You can then take a good design, and correct or enhance that for truly great performance. You also learn a great deal from that equipment, like another design course if you figure them out.
I also did live sound equipment under warranty. Yamaha made some pretty great amplifiers for example. Drum machines (yeah, I know. Everyone hates them, but they did exist). Synths and all kinds of stuff, even DACs and ADCs for digital production, never mind all the consoles and effects units. Also the tape machines. I have an extremely good idea of that world as well.
Anyway, whatever.
I design and build equipment myself also.
Commercial equipment is often designed very well (depends on make) and a group of engineers will do a better job than an individual. You can then take a good design, and correct or enhance that for truly great performance. You also learn a great deal from that equipment, like another design course if you figure them out.
I also did live sound equipment under warranty. Yamaha made some pretty great amplifiers for example. Drum machines (yeah, I know. Everyone hates them, but they did exist). Synths and all kinds of stuff, even DACs and ADCs for digital production, never mind all the consoles and effects units. Also the tape machines. I have an extremely good idea of that world as well.
Anyway, whatever.
Roland 808 drum machine is a cult instrument for instance, largely responsible for the sound of dance and hip hop music since the eighties.
It is, there are synths by some also that people will fight over being the best. Everyone knows the sound of a DX-7!
Bands had their favorites. You just fix them, you can't judge. I had a drum machine that someone knifed! The blade made it out the bottom three times, with several serious wounds in the top panel. That patient did not survive! lol!
Bands had their favorites. You just fix them, you can't judge. I had a drum machine that someone knifed! The blade made it out the bottom three times, with several serious wounds in the top panel. That patient did not survive! lol!
Drummers are jealous of drum machines because they can play in 13/8 without taking cocaine.....
i remember the time when Philips came up with motional feedback system, in a supposedly live performance, when the band began to play, and then when one by one members began to leave the stage.... when no one remained and yet the music continued, that must have been magical......
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send them to me and i will try...if i have to buy, thanks but no thanks. i use whatever is available in my part of the pond, does that mean i will not enjoy not having those? that is my point...
excuse me, but i have yet to hear a bass drum reproduced to my liking, ever....i still preffer the original bass drum..
Andy!
That was hilarious! One of those "you had to be there" to appreciate this!
FTcap (Fischer & Tausche) is the actually manufacturer. Interesting to know would be, which differences are between the MLytic® HC Series - go to
https://partsconnexion.com/products/mundorf-capacitor-47000uf-100vdc-mlytic®-hc
to the corresponding GW series from FTcap (in order to the sizes) - go to
https://www.pressebox.de/pressemitt...n-FTCAP-Teil-des-Mersen-Konzerns/boxid/972042
and the attachments.
Long time ago I tested with a ZEN user (Pass single ended one-stage power amp) a wide range of electrolytics with four 47.000uF 100V together with a 10mH air coil (for choke) for each channel. The GW series from FTcap provide the the best sonic performance at those days (the mlytic®-hc wasn't available in this time).
Another brand for electrolytics, which I favor for power amplifiers is SicSafco (Felsic series)
https://exxelia.com/en/product/list/capacitors/aluminum-electrolytic/screw-terminals
Attachments
Also about German OEM see Krummer Kondensatoren
