Hi.We have received answer from Vishay Aluminium electrolytics department.
" Hello Umit,
Thank you for your interest in our products.
The short answer to your question is most (or nearly all) of our series can be used in audio applications.
We’re aware that many suppliers of aluminum electrolytic capacitors have product series that are branded as “Audio grade” or similar. For these series they then have nice brochures to explain all the differences between their “Audio grade” products and “standard” products and how this would affect sound quality. We strive to make all our products with the highest quality and hold the opinion that the customer decides which of our product sounds best. We do not want to decide for our customer which of our product should sound best. Therefore we don’t brand any of our series as “Audio grade”, although several of them are selected by very high end audio companies for their equipment. If we indicate, that some product series can be also used in audio equipment, that must not imply that these series or parts sounds as best as possible.
(Most of our indications in series for “audio-/video applications” comes from the past, where especially the general purpose products with good price-performance ratio were used in consumer electronics).
We did get feedback from several audio manufacturers that products from our 056 PSM-SI series result in excellent sound. Technically I would contribute this to the very low ESR of these products, a feature that we do not advertise. Although we could market this by branding products from this series as “Audio Grade”, we never did any comparative tests to verify that this is indeed the feature that causes them to sound good.
I hope this answers your question. I would appreciate if you could give me some background to your question and what you want to do with the information provided
Best regards"
" Hello Umit,
Thank you for your interest in our products.
The short answer to your question is most (or nearly all) of our series can be used in audio applications.
We’re aware that many suppliers of aluminum electrolytic capacitors have product series that are branded as “Audio grade” or similar. For these series they then have nice brochures to explain all the differences between their “Audio grade” products and “standard” products and how this would affect sound quality. We strive to make all our products with the highest quality and hold the opinion that the customer decides which of our product sounds best. We do not want to decide for our customer which of our product should sound best. Therefore we don’t brand any of our series as “Audio grade”, although several of them are selected by very high end audio companies for their equipment. If we indicate, that some product series can be also used in audio equipment, that must not imply that these series or parts sounds as best as possible.
(Most of our indications in series for “audio-/video applications” comes from the past, where especially the general purpose products with good price-performance ratio were used in consumer electronics).
We did get feedback from several audio manufacturers that products from our 056 PSM-SI series result in excellent sound. Technically I would contribute this to the very low ESR of these products, a feature that we do not advertise. Although we could market this by branding products from this series as “Audio Grade”, we never did any comparative tests to verify that this is indeed the feature that causes them to sound good.
I hope this answers your question. I would appreciate if you could give me some background to your question and what you want to do with the information provided
Best regards"
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Certainly due to larger body size...bigger equals better cooling perhaps ?
Halas you have no choice than being your own experiments in real condition at iso capacitance to choose the one you prefer after a subjective listening.
For the fun you can benchmark it if your need is below 1000 uF Nichicon UKZ that has also this subjective short bass. Then with a Cornel Dublier 380 serie or a Panasonic that are not bass short. Or at the opposite a round and litlle boomy Elna. You should notice very different behaviors in the bass area but in the full range tonality as well...trade offs of course.
Halas you have no choice than being your own experiments in real condition at iso capacitance to choose the one you prefer after a subjective listening.
For the fun you can benchmark it if your need is below 1000 uF Nichicon UKZ that has also this subjective short bass. Then with a Cornel Dublier 380 serie or a Panasonic that are not bass short. Or at the opposite a round and litlle boomy Elna. You should notice very different behaviors in the bass area but in the full range tonality as well...trade offs of course.
Hello people. I recently did a shootout of audio grade electrolytic cathode bypass capacitors in an E88CC gain stage. I was searching for "the one" a particular circuit I am working on.
Here is a basic schematic of the stage I was using to compare, this is in a transformer coupled headphone amplifier, I will leave the output stage to the imagination.
I have a prototyping board I use for testing my designs, pictured below. The capacitors were alligator clipped in and out for relatively fast comparison of two different types.
All listening tests were done on headphones, specifically the new ZMF Atrium, an excellent new open back 300ohm dynamic from them. I was seeking a 220uF 16V electrolytic for my circuit, some were only available in 250uF or 25V models, so the closest available values were used. The capacitors tested were the following.
Audio Note Kaisei
Audio Note Seiryu
Elna Silmic II
Jupiter Cosmos
MOD
Nichicon FG
Nichicon KZ
Vishay Sprague Atom
This listening test was done over four hours or so, it was not blinded (sorry, but I don't have the time or patience to set that up), I did a first pass to rule out the capacitors that I felt sounded "bad" and which one I felt was "best" off the bat, then did successive listening comparisons of the best sounding capacitors until I had a hierarchy worked out.
I know some people, especially the hard objectivists, feel there will be no difference. There is, and you would have to be deaf not to hear it! At least in this particular application.
Anyway, the winner of the competition was the Jupiter Cosmos, with the runner up being the Elna Silmic II.
Both of these caps have very good clarity and don't tend to have the stridency some electrolytics add to the treble. The Elna Silmic II are pretty highly respected and are dirt cheap, so a great budget option if you are trying to save a few dollars. But the Jupiter Comos have a larger stage and better air / imaging. Either one are a great choice, the Jupiter Caps aren't terribly expensive like their film products.
The general hierarchy would go like this.
S: Jupiter Cosmos, Elna Silmic II
A: Audio Note Kaisei, Nichicon FG
B: Nichicon KZ, Vishay Sprague Atom
C: Audio Note Seiryu, MOD
It's a little vague in the middle, but the Audio Note Seiryu and MOD caps were just bad, harsh and not musical, small sound stage. All of the others sounded pretty good, but the Jupiter and Elna were clearly a cut above them.
Is this audiophoolery nonsense? You be the judge, I did this for myself, but thought maybe others might be interested. My findings seem to align well with the sentiment on the first post of this thread, and that guy seems to be doing pretty well for himself 🙂
Here is a basic schematic of the stage I was using to compare, this is in a transformer coupled headphone amplifier, I will leave the output stage to the imagination.
I have a prototyping board I use for testing my designs, pictured below. The capacitors were alligator clipped in and out for relatively fast comparison of two different types.
All listening tests were done on headphones, specifically the new ZMF Atrium, an excellent new open back 300ohm dynamic from them. I was seeking a 220uF 16V electrolytic for my circuit, some were only available in 250uF or 25V models, so the closest available values were used. The capacitors tested were the following.
Audio Note Kaisei
Audio Note Seiryu
Elna Silmic II
Jupiter Cosmos
MOD
Nichicon FG
Nichicon KZ
Vishay Sprague Atom
This listening test was done over four hours or so, it was not blinded (sorry, but I don't have the time or patience to set that up), I did a first pass to rule out the capacitors that I felt sounded "bad" and which one I felt was "best" off the bat, then did successive listening comparisons of the best sounding capacitors until I had a hierarchy worked out.
I know some people, especially the hard objectivists, feel there will be no difference. There is, and you would have to be deaf not to hear it! At least in this particular application.
Anyway, the winner of the competition was the Jupiter Cosmos, with the runner up being the Elna Silmic II.
Both of these caps have very good clarity and don't tend to have the stridency some electrolytics add to the treble. The Elna Silmic II are pretty highly respected and are dirt cheap, so a great budget option if you are trying to save a few dollars. But the Jupiter Comos have a larger stage and better air / imaging. Either one are a great choice, the Jupiter Caps aren't terribly expensive like their film products.
The general hierarchy would go like this.
S: Jupiter Cosmos, Elna Silmic II
A: Audio Note Kaisei, Nichicon FG
B: Nichicon KZ, Vishay Sprague Atom
C: Audio Note Seiryu, MOD
It's a little vague in the middle, but the Audio Note Seiryu and MOD caps were just bad, harsh and not musical, small sound stage. All of the others sounded pretty good, but the Jupiter and Elna were clearly a cut above them.
Is this audiophoolery nonsense? You be the judge, I did this for myself, but thought maybe others might be interested. My findings seem to align well with the sentiment on the first post of this thread, and that guy seems to be doing pretty well for himself 🙂
ECap selection and evaluation is always entertaining and sometimes enlightening like I have never heard of Jupiter branded parts
But you have only touched on a few types to evaluate, so it’s kind of limited as far as recommendations go.
But you have only touched on a few types to evaluate, so it’s kind of limited as far as recommendations go.
These were all of the "audio grade" electrolytics that fit my circuit requirements from Hificollective, where I source my boutique components. Of course there are many other models out there, so this is just another data point, but I felt it covered those that are most commonly recommend as bypass caps. Perhaps I could compare others in the future.
After spending over 12m swapping caps in various locations in a 9000 4K player I ended up with 90% Silmic II as well. Never tired the Cosmos though
As you get nearer the DAC its Oscon heavy (SepC) as most suggest
As you get nearer the DAC its Oscon heavy (SepC) as most suggest
The Jupiter caps are quite physically large and radial, but interesting https://www.hificollective.co.uk/sites/default/files/jupiter-cosmos-capacitors.pdf
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Why not use film caps? They cost a little more and take up more room but they sound way better.
Yes, but 220uF of film capacitance is absolutely gargantuan and there are size constraints in this design. These Jupiter caps sound excellent, I wouldn't be surprised if they bested many film caps. That will be a test for another day.
I read this test with great interest. Unfortunately you have testet only low voltage versions. According my experiences you will get in general best performances at voltage versions with 63V and 100V.
If you have interest, check out this versions (my favorite are Panasonic and Sic Safco):
https://de.rs-online.com/web/p/aluminium-elektrolytkondensatoren/1084117
https://de.rs-online.com/web/p/aluminium-elektrolytkondensatoren/9232764
https://de.rs-online.com/web/p/aluminium-elektrolytkondensatoren/7037361
https://de.rs-online.com/web/p/aluminium-elektrolytkondensatoren/1733981
https://de.rs-online.com/web/p/aluminium-elektrolytkondensatoren/2266993
https://de.rs-online.com/web/p/aluminium-elektrolytkondensatoren/7374241
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/185336369549?hash=item2b26e8918d:g:M8AAAOxyW1NREYTk
Thanks for the recommendation! I will look into them. But yes, I am sorry, this was not meant to be comprehensive, only done for my particular application which does not necessitate 63-100VDC spec.
It is a great comparison, thanks. I recently bought some silmic II to try and tried them in a similar application. Nowhere near a Wima DC link. But they can be used where size is a limitation. The one other place where they were better than the Wima was the bass. The ideal might be a Silmic with a small polyprop bypass.
Hi - how did the warmth, and bass and mid range body compare with Silmic vs Jupiter Cosmos.
I am a fan of Silmic II as well.
I have also had great results with Panasonic Oscon SepC in digital locations, and have a 211 driver stage currently using a 1000 uF 16V which is an old Sanyo ascon, and have been thinking what I might think about changing this to - it's 25 yrs old now so probably up for a change.
What do you use for coupling caps btw if you use them in any of your circuits?
Change Nichicon KZ to 50v version of the same value & it will be a different story cause 25v version simply don't sound that good
Cheers
As rated voltage goes up, esr and other parameters tend to improve. IMO, the sweet spot is between 35 and 63 volts. That said, I'm always a skeptic due to my experiences comparing various interconnects. At first I was sure you'd have to be deaf not to hear the differences, which were plain as day. Then I had a friend over who reached conclusions opposite to mine. Then I refined the test to eliminate as many biases as possible. In the end I could easily measure differences between the interconnects, just like capacitors, but they were sonically identical. I think we're all way easier to fool than we'd ever admit and I have more examples to prove it.
I felt the midrange and bass were an improvement on Jupiter over Elna, the Jupiter impart a very nice tonal richness to the midrange. The clarity and holography however is where they stood apart most significantly.
I subsequently A-B compared the Jupiter in the same circuit vs. a series of LEDs I have found to impart the best sound for LED biasing. I expected the LEDs to prevail, and perhaps they did in terms of soundstage, detail, "hifi" sound, however despite the slightly more intimate staging, I felt the Jupiter caps provided a more full-bodied midrange and better tone / musicality than the LEDs, which felt thin by comparison. This has completely changed my outlook and using cathode bias with bypass caps, which is something I have tended to avoid, opting for other fixed bias topologies or using active loading with unbypassed cathode resistor.
For coupling caps I have used Rike Audio aluminum foil, Jupiter copper foil, Clarity Cap CSA / ESA, Miflex copper foil, Auricap XO, others as well.
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I do not put much stock in interconnect changes, power cord changes, etc. But I have found along my path that the biasing method and what goes in the cathode of a tube gain stage has a significant effect on the sound. I am not trying to convince anyone, it is just my experience, coming to any consensus without rigorous scientific testing is near impossible.
I will say that if anything I was biased against the Elna caps given their price and was shocked at how good they sounded. I admit my bias would have been in favor of Jupiter given I have had good experiences with their film caps in the past. I did enough back and forth with both to feel confident the Jupiter were superior.
Also, admittedly I did not expect to get very good sound from any of these caps as I have had something of an electrolytic bypass capacitor phobia for some time, I was pleasantly surprised and my outlook has been changed, I may even change some of my LED bias designs to cathode bias with Jupiter bypass.
As far as my credentials go in my ability to hear what is "good", the only thing I can offer is this: Zach Mehrbach, owner of ZMF Headphones is a friend. I have now built two amplifiers for him from scratch, a 6AS7G OTL and a type 45 fixed bias SET design with interstage transformer coupling. He has told me the former is the best OTL headphone amplifier he has ever heard, the latter the best overall tube headphone amplifier he has ever heard. I don't say that to boast, only that it can be hard to confirm whether or not what you think sounds good will also sound good to others, and he has heard many high-end tube designs and is successful in the industry, so I trust his ears and have learned to trust mine too.
YMMV of course!
YMMV of course!
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