Wow, a lot happened yesterday. And we had our first official noise complaint - we must be doing something right!
First I went to see the SS15 my brother had built. He hadn't painted it yet, but otherwise it was complete. In our garage he had the SS15 on one side of the amp and the T39 on the other, so we could pan back and forth to compare them. He had the high-pass set up as both designs specified. We don't have any fancy testing equipment - just what we hear.
They both definitely got loud in our two car garage. To us, the SS15 sounded fuller and deeper though. For an unbiased opinion, more stuff was shaking in the garage when the SS15 was on. So we were playing some different CD's with good low-end content and talking about whether the SS15 would be good enough for what we needed when someone started banging on out garage door. So we opened it up and there was the Police! Luckily the officer knew our father and let us off with a warning.
Then my brother said he had a surprise for me. He told me to get in the car with him and off we went. He stopped at a house with a older Toyota minivan parked in front of it with a for sale sign on it. He said our father had agreed to help him buy it and they were going to transfer the title later this week. I have never seen someone so excited about owning a minivan!
So we like the tapped horn sound and what it is capable of - I think we definitely are going in the right direction. We have two smaller parties we are going to DJ at the end of October and we are going to use the SS15 for those and see how it goes.
We are still thinking about having two systems. My brother will keep the bigger one as he will have to proper transportation and storage capabilities. I am thinking about getting some powered tops and a set of the BR subs like TurboDawg or Mr. Doom have mentioned. I really don't have a safe place to store a trailer at the college and my roommate is not to excited about our dorm room becoming a gear warehouse. A compact system like that should be fine for the smaller parties I do, and if I need the bigger rig, my brother and his minivan are just 45 minutes away.
Thanks everyone for all your help and suggestions - you were unbelievably helpful. Give us a couple of weeks to think about this some more and what our next move will be. If we need to get deeper response the SS15 can give us, the TH-18, Pal12 and the Keystone are all looking really good. I am sure we will have more questions soon.
First I went to see the SS15 my brother had built. He hadn't painted it yet, but otherwise it was complete. In our garage he had the SS15 on one side of the amp and the T39 on the other, so we could pan back and forth to compare them. He had the high-pass set up as both designs specified. We don't have any fancy testing equipment - just what we hear.
They both definitely got loud in our two car garage. To us, the SS15 sounded fuller and deeper though. For an unbiased opinion, more stuff was shaking in the garage when the SS15 was on. So we were playing some different CD's with good low-end content and talking about whether the SS15 would be good enough for what we needed when someone started banging on out garage door. So we opened it up and there was the Police! Luckily the officer knew our father and let us off with a warning.
Then my brother said he had a surprise for me. He told me to get in the car with him and off we went. He stopped at a house with a older Toyota minivan parked in front of it with a for sale sign on it. He said our father had agreed to help him buy it and they were going to transfer the title later this week. I have never seen someone so excited about owning a minivan!
So we like the tapped horn sound and what it is capable of - I think we definitely are going in the right direction. We have two smaller parties we are going to DJ at the end of October and we are going to use the SS15 for those and see how it goes.
We are still thinking about having two systems. My brother will keep the bigger one as he will have to proper transportation and storage capabilities. I am thinking about getting some powered tops and a set of the BR subs like TurboDawg or Mr. Doom have mentioned. I really don't have a safe place to store a trailer at the college and my roommate is not to excited about our dorm room becoming a gear warehouse. A compact system like that should be fine for the smaller parties I do, and if I need the bigger rig, my brother and his minivan are just 45 minutes away.
Thanks everyone for all your help and suggestions - you were unbelievably helpful. Give us a couple of weeks to think about this some more and what our next move will be. If we need to get deeper response the SS15 can give us, the TH-18, Pal12 and the Keystone are all looking really good. I am sure we will have more questions soon.
I think we will probably always need a sub. We are young, our audiences will mostly be young, and us youngsters like our bass.
Thanks for you suggestions on other speakers. We will take a closer look at all of those.
Hey, thanks for your real world experiences - that in for is really helpful. It looks like you have tried a lot of different subs and it's good to hear the TH-18 is better than the rest. Yeah, we are pretty impressed with the SS15 so far, not it's just time to decide if we should make more of them or go even bigger/deeper.
We have been looking at the TH-18 thread. What speakers did you end up using? Thanks.
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There is a reason I try to convince folks to just 'build one' just to see. It usually ends up with the tell tale -- it's enough, or, it's not enough... That decision is unique to each person. However a singlesheet easy build lets you find out for yourself. I can't stress how important it is to prove things to yourself, vs accepting other's opinions.
For anyone else reading this, thinking they want as simple/cheap/small dj system as they can possibly run, here's a reasonable formula. (yes I've run and sold to others what I'm about to list out... it surprises me too...)
- DJ pod with 4u space and control surface.
- pair Behringer (cough, cough...) B212D, and speaker stands.
- IPR 3000 DSP (XLR in, and 1/4" chain out to the tops)
- pair wireless mics
- pair ss15, 4015lf loaded.
Put the subs on their sides under your dj table, mouth's together. Ratchet strap the subs together-- making sure strap goes under rubber mat you brought to keep the lightweight ss15's from 'walking.' Toe in your tops.
The dsp in the new behringer tops surprises me greatly... No they are not qsc K12's, but then for $300 what do you expect? As you turn them up the dynamic eq actually works... I'm stunned. I've built many tops, but on the low end, I can't build anything that competes by the time you figure in dsp, amp, drivers, cabinet. The above list can actually run without any eq, however a dsp based eq is obviously a huge plus, and the DJ pod has the space for it.
Now the one thing that is absolutely MANDATORY in the above system, remove all behringer badges .... people hear with their eyes.
For anyone else reading this, thinking they want as simple/cheap/small dj system as they can possibly run, here's a reasonable formula. (yes I've run and sold to others what I'm about to list out... it surprises me too...)
- DJ pod with 4u space and control surface.
- pair Behringer (cough, cough...) B212D, and speaker stands.
- IPR 3000 DSP (XLR in, and 1/4" chain out to the tops)
- pair wireless mics
- pair ss15, 4015lf loaded.
Put the subs on their sides under your dj table, mouth's together. Ratchet strap the subs together-- making sure strap goes under rubber mat you brought to keep the lightweight ss15's from 'walking.' Toe in your tops.
The dsp in the new behringer tops surprises me greatly... No they are not qsc K12's, but then for $300 what do you expect? As you turn them up the dynamic eq actually works... I'm stunned. I've built many tops, but on the low end, I can't build anything that competes by the time you figure in dsp, amp, drivers, cabinet. The above list can actually run without any eq, however a dsp based eq is obviously a huge plus, and the DJ pod has the space for it.
Now the one thing that is absolutely MANDATORY in the above system, remove all behringer badges .... people hear with their eyes.
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Hey Mr. Bell,
I just wanted to give you a big thank you for taking the time to experiment with the SS15 design and walking others through it. You have done a great job.
We are looking forward to having a chance to really test it out next week.
THANKYOU!!!!!!
I just wanted to give you a big thank you for taking the time to experiment with the SS15 design and walking others through it. You have done a great job.
We are looking forward to having a chance to really test it out next week.
THANKYOU!!!!!!
glad you like it. Keep in mind the 3012lf is less than optimal in an ss15, so know that you are not hearing what a 4015lf equipped ss15 will do.
Also, I typo'd on the tops... B112d, not B212d. The older 212d's are not good in my opinion, and do not include dsp.
The B1xxx series do.
Also, I typo'd on the tops... B112d, not B212d. The older 212d's are not good in my opinion, and do not include dsp.
The B1xxx series do.
good review man! props on the minivan. after I got one of those my margin skyrocketed on gigs lol.
Maybe QSC got a hold of the custom Danley lab 12's with the lab 15 3" motor....
I mean... eminence will design you an oem driver if you order enough of them...
I'm sure theyd be stoked if someone said, I need 2000 lab 12s, with 3" voice coils.
I'm sure theyd be stoked if someone said, I need 2000 lab 12s, with 3" voice coils.
I know. 🙂
I forget what the minimum quantity is but I know it's a lot less than that.
DIYaudio group buy? 😀
I forget what the minimum quantity is but I know it's a lot less than that.
DIYaudio group buy? 😀
minimum order is 50. but I cant imagine a company of qsc's size releasing a product if they only thought they would sell less than 1000.
Any idea what the resulting T/S would be with the "improved" motor? I suppose a 4" would restrict Xmech too much with a spider that fits in the basket.....
Will the DSP in these have the delay/time correction needed to properly delay the tops to match up with the ss15's?
The B112d proprietary DSP has a dual-band EQ, an active crossover between it's 12 and HF, dual protection limiters and transducer response correction, but no digital delay for time/phase alignment to other systems.
To properly align these (or similar powered top cabinets) to TH or FLH designs would require digital delay.
I don't time delay tops vs tapped horns the way I do with tops vs front loaded horns.
If your situation requires delay, the suggested dsp based eq (like a dcx2496) will accomplish whatever delay you need.
The B112d dsp is all about dynamic eq. It's amazing that something that simple can take what would be a very forgettable speaker, and make it listenable.
If your situation requires delay, the suggested dsp based eq (like a dcx2496) will accomplish whatever delay you need.
The B112d dsp is all about dynamic eq. It's amazing that something that simple can take what would be a very forgettable speaker, and make it listenable.
I've played with it, and with the driver in the mouth, they are as 'fast' as a BR to my ears... I end up just assuming the front of the impulse is at the driver to air, not the driver through the horn path to the air.
Am I right? no idea. My ears tell me I am, so that's my deciding factor.
Jim,
The high frequency impulse from a TH is the same as a front radiator, but in band the response of the TH is behind by the path length.
Because the path length of the SS15 is nearly one wave length behind a front loaded top at a crossover of 100 Hz, it can phase align, but is lagging.
Delaying the tops to align with a TH results in smoother frequency and phase response which is fairly easy to detect in an A/B test, delaying the tops to align with the TH sounds "punchier".
When using the Smaart Auto delay finder you need to have the crossover filter in line or a TH will read like a front radiator, which it is not.
Art
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