Thanks for the resource
Art, I feel the Watersnake will be good for launching/retrieving and manoeuvring on that battery. I wouldn't even think to use it for cruise. The area of use is within 200m reach of the ramp at the sailing club/Torquay beach. A smallish kite or sail will be quite practical from these hulls for cruising. I can modify the existing rigging and the craft will be fitted with a T foil at the prop and J foils just forward of the COG. This is my intended foil assist for electric
power conversion and very suitable for sailing upwind. Similar to a Flying Phantom but tuned more towards just bringing on plane rather than full flying
Not sure if the intended future 48v upgrade will bring it on the plane, but the foils will help a lot with level cruising and upwind sailing
This is a very interesting point that you make. I think you will find my intentions regarding this interesting to observe
I have only touched on this so far, but it is relevant to the thread as it has to do with system efficiency and regen. The hulls are very good at displacement speeds. It doesn't take much to get them moving.. I have been sewing up kites for the past two years at a smaller scale and working towards a canopy/bimini that can be used as a small sail. Marrying a crab's claw with a hang glider. Extending the work I did with this, pictured below. That was awesome for 3 knots trolling with Rapala Magnums
A kite/canopy about 8' tall would give good shade on board and on a patch of water and if mounted on a pivot system then can be used to take advantage of any wind to cruise to maintain a mooring stance. I picture a two part delta shape. A long frame on top of the booth roof holding the solar panel array and a wing either side of it that can deploy outwards for use as sail or extended shade. The frame on a pivot that can change angle of attack. The foils can be used to adjust craft trim. The pivot would be adjusted by the rear bimini pillars, which would have independent wind up and down action. Just a simple hand crank on each rear pillar
I have stockpiled all the carbon shafts and fabric and such for this purpose, as well as most of the aluminium for the super structure and bridge deck
Looking at 2m beam for the booth and 3m beam for the beach cat. The booth will go on the trailer between the wheels and the sides fold up taking the hulls up. A set of two to three cross-beams pushed through the lot would form the pins holding the spread open
I haven't even considered the main speakers yet. Prolly a line arrays on the rear deck plus booth monitors using marine rated 3" or so FR drivers
Can see quite a few fun raft ups in the future!
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/1669555...a=01J7964MXZEK9DRRR6WPF36HWD&autorefresh=true
Got this battery coming in to use instead of the AGM and that heavy thing will be left at home to serve UPS role for the digital gear. The LiFePO4 from Lanplus is compatible with series hookup to 48v
Found this 500w panel rated for marine for a good price. Not sure about the controller, but a decent 12v marine grade solar to LifePO4 unit might be required. The unit seems very good value and if it works well, then will series 4x to get a 2kw potential on a good day. I feel that just alone, the 500w panel might keep the sounds and prop ticking along without loading the battery too much. Does this sound feasible? The 65lb motor is around 1hp so hopefully WOT won't be needed for 3-6 knot cruise, especially with the wind help. Adding a panel at a time will net me more amps to feed the motor and sounds and at the right time I can go series for the 48v motor upgrade
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/1669555...a=01J7964MXZEK9DRRR6WPF36HWD&autorefresh=true
Got this battery coming in to use instead of the AGM and that heavy thing will be left at home to serve UPS role for the digital gear. The LiFePO4 from Lanplus is compatible with series hookup to 48v
Found this 500w panel rated for marine for a good price. Not sure about the controller, but a decent 12v marine grade solar to LifePO4 unit might be required. The unit seems very good value and if it works well, then will series 4x to get a 2kw potential on a good day. I feel that just alone, the 500w panel might keep the sounds and prop ticking along without loading the battery too much. Does this sound feasible? The 65lb motor is around 1hp so hopefully WOT won't be needed for 3-6 knot cruise, especially with the wind help. Adding a panel at a time will net me more amps to feed the motor and sounds and at the right time I can go series for the 48v motor upgrade
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/1669555...a=01J7964MXZEK9DRRR6WPF36HWD&autorefresh=true
Yes.
In 2011, I used a ~120watt "Electric Paddle" on my FoldBote.
By the map we covered 5 miles out and back in 2 hours, so the speed was 2.5 mph, about 2.17 knots.
The Electric Paddle (no longer available, updated to the EP Carry ~220 watts) is far more efficient than a trolling motor due to using a high aspect ratio airplane style prop.
https://www.electricpaddle.com/ratings-epcarry.html
The FoldBote is folded up on the side of the "Second Shift", a Catalina 250.
Back in 1996 I used a 3/4 Hp (560watt) electric motor (under the yellow bag) on my Catalina 250 (25' foot, well over 4000 pounds with water ballast, speakers, two motors, batteries, solar panels, wind generator, passengers etc.). As I recall it did around the same speed, a bit over 2 knots.
The motor was probably not actually drawing a full 560watts, the outboard motor prop it was attached to did not load it fully. I had used the same motor on an electric bike in the mid 1980s, and a trike in the mid 90s, then a motorcycle around 2011, it could do 25mph on flat land at 560 watts.
Anyway, if your boat isn't fighting a headwind, it should be able to amble along with music blasting at two knots or so with 500 watts.
Art
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Thank you for sharing your experiences, Art. Also, nice to see that you are a fellow mariner
So I have them coming in instead of the 500w that I was looking at. That's 1.4kw 12v of solar and should allow WOT+music through what passes for winter here 🙂 and blaze on days like today
Now, the future 48v system presents a challenge. My amp modules were selected with the 48v in mind. This means I might need a voltage up stepper to get the 48v for the TPA3255 based amps
This should let the subs get loud in good sun. One for each amp module. I can also get a pair of low KV BLDC motors and controllers to run from that 48v supply created and start figuring out the future setup in hopes of getting better efficiency underway than the Watersnake
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/100...ene:pcDetailBottomMoreOtherSeller|query_from:
At some point in the future, I will get a higher performance 4x 12v 200AH LiFePO4s that are built to a 10yr warranty. This will be run in series for a 48v 200AH bank. This will be after the large trailer is sold. I think I will sell the Smartwave and it's trailer too after the beach cat's initial trials in the 12v system. If the craft runs well then the Smartwave will be pretty redundant and those funds could go towards full solar panel coverage and a pair of EVREs plus double up on the motors again to a quad motor system totalling 13.4 electrical horsepower or 10kw for getting the beach cat up or docked with larger hulls. I think I might get a spot at the fishermans wharf marina for the 6m cat. The beach cat will be on the water soon but the full upgrade to 48v will be done over time
About this. I have been bargaining with eBay vendors and today one offered me 4x 350w marine rated panels for AUD $285 delivered (no controller and I prefer it this way, so I may get a very good one)
So I have them coming in instead of the 500w that I was looking at. That's 1.4kw 12v of solar and should allow WOT+music through what passes for winter here 🙂 and blaze on days like today
Now, the future 48v system presents a challenge. My amp modules were selected with the 48v in mind. This means I might need a voltage up stepper to get the 48v for the TPA3255 based amps
This should let the subs get loud in good sun. One for each amp module. I can also get a pair of low KV BLDC motors and controllers to run from that 48v supply created and start figuring out the future setup in hopes of getting better efficiency underway than the Watersnake
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/100...ene:pcDetailBottomMoreOtherSeller|query_from:
At some point in the future, I will get a higher performance 4x 12v 200AH LiFePO4s that are built to a 10yr warranty. This will be run in series for a 48v 200AH bank. This will be after the large trailer is sold. I think I will sell the Smartwave and it's trailer too after the beach cat's initial trials in the 12v system. If the craft runs well then the Smartwave will be pretty redundant and those funds could go towards full solar panel coverage and a pair of EVREs plus double up on the motors again to a quad motor system totalling 13.4 electrical horsepower or 10kw for getting the beach cat up or docked with larger hulls. I think I might get a spot at the fishermans wharf marina for the 6m cat. The beach cat will be on the water soon but the full upgrade to 48v will be done over time
One 350w marine panel for AUD $285 would be a very good deal.
Four for AUD $285 sounds too good to be true, be wary.
The Watersnake probably has similar (or less) efficiency to the Minn Kota trolling motor, takes ~3 times the power as the EP Carry for the same speed.
With the right motor(s) and prop(s), 1400 watts should push your boat to near hull speed.
Four 12v panels in series get you 48volts.
Good 48V LiFePO4 batteries are readily available in all sorts of amperage ratings.
Cost about 1/3 per amp hour now as when I bought my first set in 2012..
That said, DC to DC buck converters have also become cheap and efficient.
Art
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Indeed. I forgot to link the item
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/395649690079
To be messed with in the course of this build. I have some ideas on the motors but nothing firm yet. Did you see the thrusters that I linked? I envision a pair of custom legs and each unit mounted to each hull. This leg would be a T foil with trim, tilt and jacking
Props will need to be tube rolled. I am able to machine shims and such. At the likely system RPMs, a printed toroidal prop may be feasible. I can print 40cm3 in one go and my machine does PETG very well. There is a safety aspect to consider around swimmers and some green points around seagrass, dugongs and turtles can only help the cause. A bladed prop must be shrouded in a short duct
Looks like there is a need for a good power/current/voltage monitoring system for developing this project
Right now, the items in the parts bin are the 12v 65lb Watersnake, 4x 12v 350w panels, 1x 12v 100AH LiFePO4, 1x 12v to 48v 1800w upstepper
No charge controller, still trying to figure out which one
The electrical system so far
4x 12v panels that are at least 150w each
1x 12v 100AH LiFePO4
1x 150A MPPT solar controller
1x 12v 65lb thrust marine motor
1x 12v to 48v 1.8kw DC-DC up converter
2x Dual core TPA3255 amp modules
2x 12" Marine subwoofer drivers
Upgrade path
Total 12 panels, 6 in series and two sets in parallel
Higher end charge controller
48v 25-30AH LiFePO4 battery
48v 5kw petrol range extender for EV
48v BLDC dual thrusters
Updated original post with this list of items
4x 12v panels that are at least 150w each
1x 12v 100AH LiFePO4
1x 150A MPPT solar controller
1x 12v 65lb thrust marine motor
1x 12v to 48v 1.8kw DC-DC up converter
2x Dual core TPA3255 amp modules
2x 12" Marine subwoofer drivers
Upgrade path
Total 12 panels, 6 in series and two sets in parallel
Higher end charge controller
48v 25-30AH LiFePO4 battery
48v 5kw petrol range extender for EV
48v BLDC dual thrusters
Updated original post with this list of items
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Spent the evening at the main beach area with the kids playing sand and water. It was a bit overcast but made for a nice sunset. This is how busy it gets here on a Saturday evening during school holidays!
Even though it got dark and the tide came up and covered up all of the beach, they brought a bit of the beach up onto the concrete and played on 😀
I have parked a number of tinkering projects to focus on getting the beachcat on the water as a stable and solid audio platform suitable for daily use and hire and such. I feel good about the powertrain plan and have some challenging tasks with getting the hulls connected with the bridge deck and managing weights
The hulls have been badly stored by the previous owner and the surface needs attention. I have refreshed HDPE hulls before so should be fairly easy on these with mostly convex compound surfaces
Fabricating the aluminium crossbeams and floor framework comes next. I am not able to build to the 3m beam that I wanted. The fishermans wharf marina berths only allow 4m wide vessels. The 6m hulls of the "mothership" are 1m wide each. This means that I only have 2m in between to create the dry dock for the beachcat. This limits the beachcat to 2m beam. I think I may have been a bit mixed up about where that 2m constraint came from. This is good also, as now it can fit between the wheels of the max road legal 2.5m. I will be building an aluminium trailer for this craft. The wheels are very slim 12" items and should be under 25cm each, but i have to confirm this. Tolerances will have to be tight. I am able to carry the craft unassembled on the roof racks for initial testing, with only a pair of crossbeams and a tramp slung between them for deck. Bags of sand will be used to represent craft loading and items placement
As of now, the powertrain, amplifiers, subs and craft dimensions are set
Even though it got dark and the tide came up and covered up all of the beach, they brought a bit of the beach up onto the concrete and played on 😀
I have parked a number of tinkering projects to focus on getting the beachcat on the water as a stable and solid audio platform suitable for daily use and hire and such. I feel good about the powertrain plan and have some challenging tasks with getting the hulls connected with the bridge deck and managing weights
The hulls have been badly stored by the previous owner and the surface needs attention. I have refreshed HDPE hulls before so should be fairly easy on these with mostly convex compound surfaces
Fabricating the aluminium crossbeams and floor framework comes next. I am not able to build to the 3m beam that I wanted. The fishermans wharf marina berths only allow 4m wide vessels. The 6m hulls of the "mothership" are 1m wide each. This means that I only have 2m in between to create the dry dock for the beachcat. This limits the beachcat to 2m beam. I think I may have been a bit mixed up about where that 2m constraint came from. This is good also, as now it can fit between the wheels of the max road legal 2.5m. I will be building an aluminium trailer for this craft. The wheels are very slim 12" items and should be under 25cm each, but i have to confirm this. Tolerances will have to be tight. I am able to carry the craft unassembled on the roof racks for initial testing, with only a pair of crossbeams and a tramp slung between them for deck. Bags of sand will be used to represent craft loading and items placement
As of now, the powertrain, amplifiers, subs and craft dimensions are set
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The 48v upgrade might not be that far away if I can make these linked items work for me, One pair of motor and the dual drive ebike controller. It would work if the pair can be setup in CW+CCW and one behind each hull. I have to find out if this would be possible
Dual drive ebike controller kit
Underwater thruster
Great shipped price and the motor is a reputable brand. Using my CNC and printer, I can fabricate a pair of legs with powered trim and tilt plus jacking quite economically and build something that looks good and cohesive with the rest of the craft. Good to get this sorted for a very good price. I might not need to make the 12v Watersnake permanent and only use it for the initial setup outings. That unit can go on the bow of the bigger cat later as a bow thruster to assist with manoeuvring, especially in the marina if berthed
This is what simple hand tools can do when stuck, 3600km from the nearest chandlery 10yrs ago, imagine the possibilities after that time of learning and access to modern digital tools as well as great access to material and parts
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.731462436942426&type=3
Dual drive ebike controller kit
Underwater thruster
Great shipped price and the motor is a reputable brand. Using my CNC and printer, I can fabricate a pair of legs with powered trim and tilt plus jacking quite economically and build something that looks good and cohesive with the rest of the craft. Good to get this sorted for a very good price. I might not need to make the 12v Watersnake permanent and only use it for the initial setup outings. That unit can go on the bow of the bigger cat later as a bow thruster to assist with manoeuvring, especially in the marina if berthed
This is what simple hand tools can do when stuck, 3600km from the nearest chandlery 10yrs ago, imagine the possibilities after that time of learning and access to modern digital tools as well as great access to material and parts
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.731462436942426&type=3
Spent all night working and all day sleeping in today. Pondering the project and looking up items. The 12v Watersnake is not a very efficient model. It was purchased for manoeuvring in the marina, around snags and rocks while lure fishing and such. Never intended for cruise. So this will definitely need to be changed out. But I also don't want to get bogged down with too much DIY in the powertrain. So I have been looking at units such as this one linked below
1.5kw 12-24v BLDC Marine outboard with remote and dual motor support
This would be a drop-in replacement for the Watersnake and be able to use my brand new 12v 100AH LiFePO4. This battery will be arriving this week and I can order another as it supports series connection. I can then have a 24v battery system with both batteries initialised together. The solar MPPT controller and panels coming in will support this well
The remote supports dual motors. The prop is well shrouded. The controller can be detached and relocated to the hull. I can rig up steering, tilt and trim using electric pushrods. It will look pretty tidy with the controller relocated. Like a tiny gloss black Mercury outboard. I won't have to fabricate a lot
Been thinking about the driving area and furniture supporting that. It looks like the driver's seat and the deck chair will have to be the same and house the subs as well. So we have the volume of around 70% of the length of a double width deck chair. Then, 30% of its length at the bow end will need to be able to collapse to allow the use of the edge as a double width bench to seat at a console facing the bow
The DJ desk would be on a swing back or up arm. This is to be a sealed unit housing the amp modules, mixer, up converter, marine head unit, solar charge controller and mini PC
1.5kw 12-24v BLDC Marine outboard with remote and dual motor support
This would be a drop-in replacement for the Watersnake and be able to use my brand new 12v 100AH LiFePO4. This battery will be arriving this week and I can order another as it supports series connection. I can then have a 24v battery system with both batteries initialised together. The solar MPPT controller and panels coming in will support this well
The remote supports dual motors. The prop is well shrouded. The controller can be detached and relocated to the hull. I can rig up steering, tilt and trim using electric pushrods. It will look pretty tidy with the controller relocated. Like a tiny gloss black Mercury outboard. I won't have to fabricate a lot
Been thinking about the driving area and furniture supporting that. It looks like the driver's seat and the deck chair will have to be the same and house the subs as well. So we have the volume of around 70% of the length of a double width deck chair. Then, 30% of its length at the bow end will need to be able to collapse to allow the use of the edge as a double width bench to seat at a console facing the bow
The DJ desk would be on a swing back or up arm. This is to be a sealed unit housing the amp modules, mixer, up converter, marine head unit, solar charge controller and mini PC
The marine rated subs arrived yesterday and power amps arriving today 🙂
Panels are due to come in tomorrow
Panels are due to come in tomorrow
The new 12v 100AH LiFePO4 battery arrived today
Found a pic that shows the type of sail deployment. Not huge like in the pic but general idea. I would have them as crab claw looking awnings either side of the solar array. To be raised to form bi-wings. Will be played with once craft is fairly well advanced in the build
This one shows a booth on a pair of hulls. My intention is to not have that permanent back wall. And the front wall to be plumb. The Roof pillers will be on 4 corners of the booth. If I make the back edge of the roof fold down, then it can cover the opening once the roof is brought down to be a lid. I suppose the same can be done to the front. So lets say a 1.2m wall height and 2.4m full roof height deployment and able to be inclined by shortening pillar height with shear pins
I think I might have enough aluminium on hand to get those two crossbeams up with a bit of tramp in between
The booth will sit on the deck similar to as shown in the pic above and secured with shear pins through brackets on the sides like those orange blocks. Since my motors will be on the sides on the back of the hulls, the booth can be taken off and placed on the grass as a land based booth complete with the solar system. Booth length is looking to be around 2m and width 1.8-2m
Found a pic that shows the type of sail deployment. Not huge like in the pic but general idea. I would have them as crab claw looking awnings either side of the solar array. To be raised to form bi-wings. Will be played with once craft is fairly well advanced in the build
This one shows a booth on a pair of hulls. My intention is to not have that permanent back wall. And the front wall to be plumb. The Roof pillers will be on 4 corners of the booth. If I make the back edge of the roof fold down, then it can cover the opening once the roof is brought down to be a lid. I suppose the same can be done to the front. So lets say a 1.2m wall height and 2.4m full roof height deployment and able to be inclined by shortening pillar height with shear pins
I think I might have enough aluminium on hand to get those two crossbeams up with a bit of tramp in between
The booth will sit on the deck similar to as shown in the pic above and secured with shear pins through brackets on the sides like those orange blocks. Since my motors will be on the sides on the back of the hulls, the booth can be taken off and placed on the grass as a land based booth complete with the solar system. Booth length is looking to be around 2m and width 1.8-2m
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Solar panel cells are in series strings, block any cells with masts or sails and the entire panel output can drop to a fraction of full illumination.
@weltersys @seventenths @ICG
This too amongst other challenges that would cause the same result. Let's see how the panel cope on the more tender and light beach cat and the heavier hulls. One reason I have been looking at ebike controllers is that some offer regen back from the drive motor. Dragging the prop under sail power might have a chance to keep the battery topped up with surplus for audio power
I haven't been able to work out clearly from online searches if I can have two different types of charge controllers on the battery at the same time. We have a good tidal current running the length of the beach. Enough to spin a decent size watermill of around 30-50cm. Easy enough to rig a cheap brushed trolling motor as a water wheel/sea anchor dual use. A sea anchor is used to stabilise or control the drift on a vessel using wind against water drag or current against hull drag. This can net more energy than solar. When there is no current, having the props flat on the water will also rotate them with heave, pitch and roll
Am I making sense? The drag from the watermill against the sail would have a plough type effect,. I could possibly use this as part of a centre board. If the current panels do not show much efficiency on the water, would a watermill make for a more sensible investment than piling on more panels?
I am looking at how to convert the raw output of a BLDC to a raw DC that a charge controller can use. Such a motor would be a better choice as a generator. The best setup would be the final dual boat motors also acting as regen when dragged by sail or tidal current