You mean this below, @kees52, which are bookshelf 2-ways speakers :
You welcome @hjo !
The Ripole principle - as you may already know it - offers in an unrivalled format the possibility to produce infra-bass without boxy tone or exciting the room resonance, that famous "floating bass", but there's a price to pay : efficiency, or rather loudness possibilities.
In my small Auditorium, Ripole proved to be the best solution for the kind of deep, ambient, unobtrusive but filling infra bass tone I expected.
When I though about adding a sub, I borrowed first to friends their subs for tests, prior to go Ripole : a Klipsch, a Celestion, a Fostex or Yamaha, sorry I do not remember the models, because they sounded not so good to my ears, at a point that I thought that subs were rather for PA, HT use or that "Boom-Boom" music you have in night-clubs...
But as pointed again by @kees52, you have to go big if you want loudness. Now the question is : how far in terms of loudness do you need to go ?
In my personal case, I'd say that I am moderate. I mean loud enough to be very comfortable, but not the usual audiophile sound demo level. I simply listen to music, I don't try to impress my friends...
I use my Omega ripole mostly with my pair of MAGNEPAN SMGb speakers (efficiency 89dB/W/m), those beeing driven by a small McIntosh MC7100. The sub module I installed in my Omega Ripole is an ATOHM S-250 (class D / 250W) with its integrated low-pass filter set at 40Hz (minimal FC setting) @12dB/Oct. setting (instead of 24dB/Oct. setting).
View from the listening position :
The rack - the MC7100 is under the turntable, with C712 preamp :
In terms of measurement, I only searched if the Ripole claimed resonant frequency minoration of "at least 10Hz under the speaker FS" was true or a legend :
Well, it's not a legend, given that the BEYMA 12BR70 speakers that I use resonates at 28 and 29Hz respectively. Below the level out of the test amp which drives the Omega ripole in RMS Volts under 4 ohms, and the matching resonant frequency obtained. In mV is the signal feeding the test power amp :
At 17Hz, the power driving the speakers was (4.68)²/4=5.5WRMS, and it was a very comfortable level, where you can think of turning down the volume after a while. Seated in front of my bench, I could not tell from where the infra bass sound was coming, no boxyness, but it was all around me, despite I was facing the Omega ripole, hence my term "floating"...
The 2x12" is enough for my peronal needs : unrivalled on Space Ambient Electronic Music, moderate volume conditions...
That said, we tested my Omega Ripole at friend's home, who have a much larger room than me (below), at several places, with his pair of DIY Horns (103dB/W/m efficiency) and MAGNEPAN MG2.5 ( 87dB/W/m, not shown) :
The FC of the sub module was set à 60Hz 12dB/Oct and 80Hz 24dB/Oct. with the horns, 40Hz 12dB/Oct. with the magneplanars MG2.5. The magic of the "deep, floating infra-bass" was there. My pal said that it was the best sub he tested along with its MG2.5...
The loudness was high, and the Omega Ripole followed but with very little reserve, though. My friend and I then felt that a 2x15" version was preferable to have more displacement Xmax safe headroom at high loudness.
So when you write :
It's probably the right path to follow... In this case, a pair of SB Audience 15OB350 would be good candidates, at an affordable cost. At least, that's what my friend and I would choose for a 2x15" ripole.
https://www.sbaudience.com/index.php/products/open-baffle-drivers/bianco-15ob350/
T
You welcome @hjo !
The Ripole principle - as you may already know it - offers in an unrivalled format the possibility to produce infra-bass without boxy tone or exciting the room resonance, that famous "floating bass", but there's a price to pay : efficiency, or rather loudness possibilities.
In my small Auditorium, Ripole proved to be the best solution for the kind of deep, ambient, unobtrusive but filling infra bass tone I expected.
When I though about adding a sub, I borrowed first to friends their subs for tests, prior to go Ripole : a Klipsch, a Celestion, a Fostex or Yamaha, sorry I do not remember the models, because they sounded not so good to my ears, at a point that I thought that subs were rather for PA, HT use or that "Boom-Boom" music you have in night-clubs...
But as pointed again by @kees52, you have to go big if you want loudness. Now the question is : how far in terms of loudness do you need to go ?
In my personal case, I'd say that I am moderate. I mean loud enough to be very comfortable, but not the usual audiophile sound demo level. I simply listen to music, I don't try to impress my friends...
I use my Omega ripole mostly with my pair of MAGNEPAN SMGb speakers (efficiency 89dB/W/m), those beeing driven by a small McIntosh MC7100. The sub module I installed in my Omega Ripole is an ATOHM S-250 (class D / 250W) with its integrated low-pass filter set at 40Hz (minimal FC setting) @12dB/Oct. setting (instead of 24dB/Oct. setting).
View from the listening position :
The rack - the MC7100 is under the turntable, with C712 preamp :
In terms of measurement, I only searched if the Ripole claimed resonant frequency minoration of "at least 10Hz under the speaker FS" was true or a legend :
Well, it's not a legend, given that the BEYMA 12BR70 speakers that I use resonates at 28 and 29Hz respectively. Below the level out of the test amp which drives the Omega ripole in RMS Volts under 4 ohms, and the matching resonant frequency obtained. In mV is the signal feeding the test power amp :
At 17Hz, the power driving the speakers was (4.68)²/4=5.5WRMS, and it was a very comfortable level, where you can think of turning down the volume after a while. Seated in front of my bench, I could not tell from where the infra bass sound was coming, no boxyness, but it was all around me, despite I was facing the Omega ripole, hence my term "floating"...
The 2x12" is enough for my peronal needs : unrivalled on Space Ambient Electronic Music, moderate volume conditions...
That said, we tested my Omega Ripole at friend's home, who have a much larger room than me (below), at several places, with his pair of DIY Horns (103dB/W/m efficiency) and MAGNEPAN MG2.5 ( 87dB/W/m, not shown) :
The FC of the sub module was set à 60Hz 12dB/Oct and 80Hz 24dB/Oct. with the horns, 40Hz 12dB/Oct. with the magneplanars MG2.5. The magic of the "deep, floating infra-bass" was there. My pal said that it was the best sub he tested along with its MG2.5...
The loudness was high, and the Omega Ripole followed but with very little reserve, though. My friend and I then felt that a 2x15" version was preferable to have more displacement Xmax safe headroom at high loudness.
So when you write :
It's probably the right path to follow... In this case, a pair of SB Audience 15OB350 would be good candidates, at an affordable cost. At least, that's what my friend and I would choose for a 2x15" ripole.
https://www.sbaudience.com/index.php/products/open-baffle-drivers/bianco-15ob350/
T
Visaton indeed compensates with a lot of drivers. The grand orgue has 8 drivers for the sub on each speaker. But the drivers themselves have no spectacular specs. Rather low in sensitivity to my opinion.
I'm going to have a listen to the subs at the shop. But still I hope I'll manage to build some nice ripoles.
I'm going to have a listen to the subs at the shop. But still I hope I'll manage to build some nice ripoles.
Dear @tubelectron , I feel humbled at your posts. Thank you for your help!
My room looks smaller than the one of your friend. But I think bigger than yours. Is it a loft?
Most of the time I play at moderate volumes as well. But sometimes I like to listen to music like I hear is live. Wagners Lohengrin with a full choire actually hurts the ears.
With the ripoles now, I have that low bass all around on lower volumes. I dont want to lose that effect. So.... I have to convince my wife... 🙈
The Bianco is affordable. And you have good experience with them. I'll put them on my list.
I haven't measured my OBs, but all drivers have 90+ sensitivity on paper. And most are parallel wired.
Regards
My room looks smaller than the one of your friend. But I think bigger than yours. Is it a loft?
Most of the time I play at moderate volumes as well. But sometimes I like to listen to music like I hear is live. Wagners Lohengrin with a full choire actually hurts the ears.
With the ripoles now, I have that low bass all around on lower volumes. I dont want to lose that effect. So.... I have to convince my wife... 🙈
The Bianco is affordable. And you have good experience with them. I'll put them on my list.
I haven't measured my OBs, but all drivers have 90+ sensitivity on paper. And most are parallel wired.
Regards
Aha @hjo : you use Open Baffles... That is to say a similar acoustic behavior as our MAGNEPAN speakers : plane baffle radiation.
You certainly know that Magneplanars (and Electrostatics) are considered touchy - not to say difficult - to associate with a subwoofer. This is what we experienced, my "Maggies Pals" and myself. I would not be surprised if Open Baffles obeyed to the same idiosyncrasies !
Below, the large Auditorium of one of them, a Real Maggie Afficionado : Tympani IV, MG3.5, etc...
He had two large MAGNAT 15" subwoofer but finally sold them for matching reasons. When we experimented my little Omega Ripole and its mere 2x12", indeed we could hardly sustain the high loudness of a demo... But at moderate levels, the "deep floating infra-bass" was there, unobtrusively filling the room, matching the planars sound...
And this is where the Ripole principle came to us "as a Savior" : the radiation pattern offered by the Ripole marry very well with the planars, statics and certainly OB speakers. My "Maggie Pal" here will opt for a 2x18" Ripole, to be large enough in loudness, custom built by one of his friend carpenter and cabinet maker.
Again, I think that a 2x15" Ripole would certainly be the right path for you, reading your last post. But please note that - unlike the usual sub - the Ripole can't be placed against a wall, or in a corner, due to its front and rear apertures.
According to Axel Ridtahler, the inventor of the Ripole principle, the best position is in-between the speakers, at some distance of the back wall, which is the disposition I adopted and... Incidentally, was the most practical - not to say compulsory - placement in my tiny Auditorium !
My friend who designed and built his own horns (shown some posts above) found that a nearly central place in his living room was the best choice with my Omega ripole 2x12", and he plans to built his 2x15" Ripole under the form of a Coffee Table... You may suggest this integration idea to your Wife, maybe ? 😉
I even suggested to my friend my RIPOLTERGEIST design... Just in case if the Coffee Table would not be large enough to his beloved Wife ! 😄😄😄
T
You certainly know that Magneplanars (and Electrostatics) are considered touchy - not to say difficult - to associate with a subwoofer. This is what we experienced, my "Maggies Pals" and myself. I would not be surprised if Open Baffles obeyed to the same idiosyncrasies !
Below, the large Auditorium of one of them, a Real Maggie Afficionado : Tympani IV, MG3.5, etc...
He had two large MAGNAT 15" subwoofer but finally sold them for matching reasons. When we experimented my little Omega Ripole and its mere 2x12", indeed we could hardly sustain the high loudness of a demo... But at moderate levels, the "deep floating infra-bass" was there, unobtrusively filling the room, matching the planars sound...
And this is where the Ripole principle came to us "as a Savior" : the radiation pattern offered by the Ripole marry very well with the planars, statics and certainly OB speakers. My "Maggie Pal" here will opt for a 2x18" Ripole, to be large enough in loudness, custom built by one of his friend carpenter and cabinet maker.
Again, I think that a 2x15" Ripole would certainly be the right path for you, reading your last post. But please note that - unlike the usual sub - the Ripole can't be placed against a wall, or in a corner, due to its front and rear apertures.
According to Axel Ridtahler, the inventor of the Ripole principle, the best position is in-between the speakers, at some distance of the back wall, which is the disposition I adopted and... Incidentally, was the most practical - not to say compulsory - placement in my tiny Auditorium !
My friend who designed and built his own horns (shown some posts above) found that a nearly central place in his living room was the best choice with my Omega ripole 2x12", and he plans to built his 2x15" Ripole under the form of a Coffee Table... You may suggest this integration idea to your Wife, maybe ?
😉I even suggested to my friend my RIPOLTERGEIST design... Just in case if the Coffee Table would not be large enough to his beloved Wife ! 😄😄😄
T
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That 4x15" RIPOLTERGEIST design does look intriguing!! Did you actually build it? I would be curious what to expect from that.
Yet another ripole. This line array is still getting worked (lots of software and lots of problems), but so far, the ripole portion sounds very good.
@Neil Davis thats a rather impressive array. I considered an array, but found it to much for my abilities. I love the dynamic of the multiple mids.
@tubelectron The RIPOLTERGEIST are intriguing indeed,! Replacing the coffee table might become a problem though 🙄.
A flat ripole with the drivers next to eachother, like @megumin made, could be an option to fit one underneath the couch. 2 or 3 15" drivers or 4 12" drivers.
@tubelectron The RIPOLTERGEIST are intriguing indeed,! Replacing the coffee table might become a problem though 🙄.
A flat ripole with the drivers next to eachother, like @megumin made, could be an option to fit one underneath the couch. 2 or 3 15" drivers or 4 12" drivers.
No, it was only a suggestion. To be honest, I do not see why it would not work simply as an "extended" Ripole...
Aha : replacing the coffee table... You already had one, conversely to my friend... OK, so yes, promptly forget that bad idea ! 😉
Yes : @megumin 's idea is an elegant solution to make the Ripole disappear in the Living-Room Landscape, for sure... 😎
Since it is not a double-speaker Ripole (no common front chamber), the efficiency could possibly be downgraded ? Not sure... By the way, maybe you could then go for two single18" speakers Ripole, if there's enough room under the couch to place them satisfactorily. 🙂
T
The chamber is half the size. So, I would say that the pressure remains the same.
I measured the couch, I need another couch, or even better a bigger house for 18" 😬.
Thank you for your insights! It has definitely helped.
Regards hjo
So, I made a cardboard mockup and put it under the couch.
It didn't work. It sags to far in when I sit on it.
I went back to my mid-range array from the speakers for inspiration. Multiple drivers spread the load. Fast for dynamics and enough power.
Size matters for a subwoofer.
Two 18" Bianco's have a total sd of 2488cm2.
Two 15" Bianco's OB have a total of 1710cm2.
The 18" displaces more air and create therefore more bass. If I am correct.
A ripole isn't a full dipole because it puts pressure on the air bij means of the chamber. The chamber height/slot is 1/4 to 1/3 of the sd from the driver.
Then what makes the sound is the amount of air leaving the chamber.
If I take multiple smaller drivers to make the same total sd2 and keep the chamber size and slot size the same as for a bigger driver, then it should be the same output.
In height a flat ripole with 12 10" drivers would fit though.
The total sd would be 2568cm2. A bit more than the 18" with almost the same footprint.
The chamber and slot sizes are to be calculated to the total sd2. All other parameters of the drivers have to be around ideal OB specs.
Or am I completely wrong?
It didn't work. It sags to far in when I sit on it.
I went back to my mid-range array from the speakers for inspiration. Multiple drivers spread the load. Fast for dynamics and enough power.
Size matters for a subwoofer.
Two 18" Bianco's have a total sd of 2488cm2.
Two 15" Bianco's OB have a total of 1710cm2.
The 18" displaces more air and create therefore more bass. If I am correct.
A ripole isn't a full dipole because it puts pressure on the air bij means of the chamber. The chamber height/slot is 1/4 to 1/3 of the sd from the driver.
Then what makes the sound is the amount of air leaving the chamber.
If I take multiple smaller drivers to make the same total sd2 and keep the chamber size and slot size the same as for a bigger driver, then it should be the same output.
In height a flat ripole with 12 10" drivers would fit though.
The total sd would be 2568cm2. A bit more than the 18" with almost the same footprint.
The chamber and slot sizes are to be calculated to the total sd2. All other parameters of the drivers have to be around ideal OB specs.
Or am I completely wrong?
No, you're not @hjo : it should work as expected, as long as the chosen smaller speakers offer enough available XMAX capacity to equal a 18" speaker.
To check if the Ripole principle could work with smaller speakers, I built two reduced version s of my Omega Ripole :
Below the smallest, the MICRO, driven by the sub module of my Omega 2x12" (ATOHM S-250)
The result was amazing, I could measure a 25Hz system resonance, for 2x5" speakers (Audax HM130G0) that have FS=41Hz, and the Magic of the Ripole was fully there... Of course, it was for a Bookshelf Ambient Use, you guess it ! But nontheless, it worked as expected... Very surprising !
So I decided to go for it, with a mini sub module (a 2x30W satelllites and 60W sub generic compact and cheap unit by Audiophonics)...
... And it did not worked, JUST BECAUSE of that mini sub module which had a lousy LPF circuit : poor slope, poor FC... 😡😡😡 For the same reason, the 2x7" version, the MINI, suffered the same issue. I trashed them, proof has positively been done that it worked, except for the sub module, and I re-used the speakers for other projects.
All this to say again that your idea is not wrong at all, @hjo : smaller speakers can do the job - just take care of the XMAX capacity, even if the speakers are in number !
I mean : if the group of 8" speakers equals the SD of a single 18", each 8" speaker should have the same XMAX as that 18" to compete with him, ideally.
T
Thank you @tubelectron .
That's encouraging. The Xmax of the drivers I'v seen is 10. With 22 as final. Just under the specs of the 18 and 15" Bianco's but better than the 12" OB 12ob150. Or the Visaton from the grand orgue. The sensitivity is lower, 91db. That might be a problem.
Quality might be the point though.
https://stx.pl/en/w-22-200-8-mcx-v2.html
I'm going to the drawing board..
Regards
That's encouraging. The Xmax of the drivers I'v seen is 10. With 22 as final. Just under the specs of the 18 and 15" Bianco's but better than the 12" OB 12ob150. Or the Visaton from the grand orgue. The sensitivity is lower, 91db. That might be a problem.
Quality might be the point though.
https://stx.pl/en/w-22-200-8-mcx-v2.html
I'm going to the drawing board..
Regards
Those STX have a really low Fs for an 8" driver!
A note of caution about Xmax--different manufacturers vary in how they list it. The STX's 10 mm is peak to peak, while I'm pretty sure the SB 15OB350 is around 11 mm one way. Or at least, that's how I read the datasheet! Would be nice if there were one standard. Also, depending on your needs the difference in power handling might be relevant.
I'm assuming you're rolling these off around 50-60 Hz so that cavity resonance won't be an issue?
A note of caution about Xmax--different manufacturers vary in how they list it. The STX's 10 mm is peak to peak, while I'm pretty sure the SB 15OB350 is around 11 mm one way. Or at least, that's how I read the datasheet! Would be nice if there were one standard. Also, depending on your needs the difference in power handling might be relevant.
I'm assuming you're rolling these off around 50-60 Hz so that cavity resonance won't be an issue?
@dayneger
The STX specs state:
Max. linear excursion - 10 mm (p-p)
Mechanical displacement range - 22 mm (p-p)
And the Bianco 15 and 18 approximately
Xmax ±10.93 mm
Calculated Xmax ±10.94 mm
Xvar, Xmech, Xlim ±30 mm
My wishful thinking is that the Mechanical displacement range is the Xlim.
But the p-p is new to me and disappointing. Thank you for the warning..
Yes, they will roll off at 50hz. So I don't think resonance will be a problem. Maybe some reinforcement in the chamber.
But I have to reconsider with the xmax....
The STX specs state:
Max. linear excursion - 10 mm (p-p)
Mechanical displacement range - 22 mm (p-p)
And the Bianco 15 and 18 approximately
Xmax ±10.93 mm
Calculated Xmax ±10.94 mm
Xvar, Xmech, Xlim ±30 mm
My wishful thinking is that the Mechanical displacement range is the Xlim.
But the p-p is new to me and disappointing. Thank you for the warning..
Yes, they will roll off at 50hz. So I don't think resonance will be a problem. Maybe some reinforcement in the chamber.
But I have to reconsider with the xmax....
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Well, I guess if you blow a couple of them up they're not that expensive to replace! But it's true, 5 mm isn't a whole lot of stroke to work with.
That said, with 10 of them hammering away, the effect should still be pretty nice.
I'm no expert, but if you interrupt the baffle repeatedly--which you'd likely want to do anyway with all of these facing down--you shouldn't have a resonance problem if rolled off at 50 Hz.
That said, with 10 of them hammering away, the effect should still be pretty nice.
I'm no expert, but if you interrupt the baffle repeatedly--which you'd likely want to do anyway with all of these facing down--you shouldn't have a resonance problem if rolled off at 50 Hz.
While we're talking about ripoles, what happens when you place them "too close" to the rear wall?
I'm inspired by @tubelectron's mini ripoles as a way to put some bass under a pair of smaller bookshelves my son and I are going to build for his room (Zaph ZA5.2). But often the ripole would need to be fairly close to the rear wall.
What distance would be a) preferred, b) not perfect but decent, and c) totally screws up their sound.
I'm inspired by @tubelectron's mini ripoles as a way to put some bass under a pair of smaller bookshelves my son and I are going to build for his room (Zaph ZA5.2). But often the ripole would need to be fairly close to the rear wall.
What distance would be a) preferred, b) not perfect but decent, and c) totally screws up their sound.
Placement is a bit of an issue indeed. Hence the quest with the low profile sub 😬.
I've got two ripole subs at different positions now. One is a bit before the left speaker. A 40 cm from the wall. Butt about halfway in the room to the back wall. The second on a shelf in the corner. 80cm heigh? Crawling around with the sub on my listening position it appeared to be a reasonal position. For a family living room. The 'perfectc position is not realistic for my household.
The one on the shelf is relocated forward one the ground when I am really listening to bass demanding music.
To be honest, the difference is not overwhelming. It's more that the s
You mean in practice? The recommended distance from walls is around a metre as I recall.
I've got two ripole subs at different positions now. One is a bit before the left speaker. A 40 cm from the wall. Butt about halfway in the room to the back wall. The second on a shelf in the corner. 80cm heigh? Crawling around with the sub on my listening position it appeared to be a reasonal position. For a family living room. The 'perfectc position is not realistic for my household.
The one on the shelf is relocated forward one the ground when I am really listening to bass demanding music.
To be honest, the difference is not overwhelming. It's more that the s
Below you can see the distance at where my Omega Ripole is placed in my little auditorium (in the center lower) :
The distance of the back of the Omega Ripole is 20cm from the IKEA rack-shelf, but that said, it's not a wall... Wen we tested it at my friend's living room with his MAGNEPAN MG2.5, the distance from the back bay window was 50-60cm, and it worked fine.
If it is a similar design to my MICRO Ripole, 10 to 15cm from a wall would be fine.
T