Vac,
I am owner of Signature800 and I want to let you know that you absolutely do not need to be right on one spot to have proper frequency response.
My room is acoustically trated with sound panels bass traps and diffuser and the sound is wide clear and deep. Yes you need to be in the center for best soundstage experience, but as far as frequency response and timber I don't absolutely note what you say.
why is the LV OBX a flawed design?
Im personally not surprised that Living voice was one of his favorite. def one of the best company out there.
I think amplifier is critical to get best sound response out of that nice speaker!
I am not familiar with the one you are using now or planning on using.
With simple quickly research my first impression is that it might be inadequate to provide you with max power quality out of your speakers.
You might want to consider go to some stores and try some different integrated amplifiers against yours and let your ear decide.
Yes I know, on of the good one with Proac, it's made in a country near mine 😀 (I have two speakers from the perfid Albion 😛)
Hummm, "flawed" is perhaps not the good word as the result is great, but to paraphrase T. G. : colored driver, light enclosure, many things speakers makers rejects, but all these flawed choices but well tunned (T.G. said the driver permitt easy filtering, same pilosophy behind (beyond) the Ariel for instance?).... It was more my thought. To conclude, T. says those Living Voice sounds distorded if you push them too high ! But wonderfull at normal level !
It could be in a room like yours a marvelous speaker instead because your room volume. I saw you sold the JBL ?
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yes, I think its important to note that enclosure that resonate may not be the best for high volume, but at moderate volume I dont find the resonant enclosure really problematic at all.
my father is sort of collecting speakers. he have, esl57, jbl lsr32, tannoy gold 12, altec valentia, amphion one18, harbeth p3esr, chartwell ls3/5a, and many others.
working on it! but I have high hopes for the equilibrium from ec designs!
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good...glad to hear that...I am sure as you progress with your amplification you will appreciate your speakers more and more and very likely abandon the use of subwoofers.
in what way Living voice or Harbeth use coloured drivers?
hehe, I dont even use my sub right now. not sure I really need it and it seems to destroy the bass coherence
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My ears 😉.... the Vifa P17 iirc for the Living Voice, not the ScanSpeak above (9500 or 9900 I don't remember) !
My 104/2 Kef has close cone material (Bextrene ?) than the old BBC monitor (the most famous speaker of the world ?...at least the most cloned)...
I disagree from my own experience about what you say of enclosure resonance : it matters a lot at low volume as well : you can experiment that with the many way to interface the speaker with the ground ! the enclosure and its pannels is like a driver which change the tonal balance...
Remember the room placement of the speakers in your room and how it changed the results; the coupling is a little the same, at least with the speakers I lived with (Focal, Proac, Boston, Kef... so I surmise :all the speakers !)
I understand Stefano when he says : I spent ten years to setup my speaker in my room... so do I with my difficult Boston Lynnfield which sounds better with a carefull care than the Kef Blade 2 rapidly setuped in a big room...Although not listened both with the same room and devices !
My 104/2 Kef has close cone material (Bextrene ?) than the old BBC monitor (the most famous speaker of the world ?...at least the most cloned)...
I disagree from my own experience about what you say of enclosure resonance : it matters a lot at low volume as well : you can experiment that with the many way to interface the speaker with the ground ! the enclosure and its pannels is like a driver which change the tonal balance...
Remember the room placement of the speakers in your room and how it changed the results; the coupling is a little the same, at least with the speakers I lived with (Focal, Proac, Boston, Kef... so I surmise :all the speakers !)
I understand Stefano when he says : I spent ten years to setup my speaker in my room... so do I with my difficult Boston Lynnfield which sounds better with a carefull care than the Kef Blade 2 rapidly setuped in a big room...Although not listened both with the same room and devices !
I have a fully treated room with lots of bass traps 🙂 and yes, speaker and listening position placement is very very very important. so is decoupling speakers from the stands.
I find that the resonant enclosure affect indeed the LF performance. I cannot find that it colours the mid and high at all as I find the harbeth very transparent in the mids. however, I think resonant enclosure do colour the bass somewhat: I must say I may like the coloration it imparts at LF.
My theory about resonant enclosure is that it may help for LF room resonance and how it interacts with LF room resonance. Maybe it makes no sense at all but im interested in how a resonant enclosure interact with the room resonance and how, by the lighly longer decay caused by the enclosure may actually help? Is there have been any studies that compare inert enclosure vs resonant enclosure and the effects it plays on room resonance and decay, ect.
I find that the resonant enclosure affect indeed the LF performance. I cannot find that it colours the mid and high at all as I find the harbeth very transparent in the mids. however, I think resonant enclosure do colour the bass somewhat: I must say I may like the coloration it imparts at LF.
My theory about resonant enclosure is that it may help for LF room resonance and how it interacts with LF room resonance. Maybe it makes no sense at all but im interested in how a resonant enclosure interact with the room resonance and how, by the lighly longer decay caused by the enclosure may actually help? Is there have been any studies that compare inert enclosure vs resonant enclosure and the effects it plays on room resonance and decay, ect.
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I was talking of the old LS3/A with kef drivers, was it not Bextrene ?
For me the resonance affect also the mis and low treble : you can play a lot with that.
I have a little the same disease than your Dad & you : il will like to keep them all, while having a sort of ring to rule them all which sound the best ! Not possible has the speaker is not alone in the result !
I dream of a huge manoir with dedicated rooms for different stuffs : OB, Compression drivers, pannels, classic, monitors.... I see a doctor for that ! But I'm damned : hes has the same disease !
Ok sorry to troll, let back to diamond tweeter and perfect transcient discussions !
For me the resonance affect also the mis and low treble : you can play a lot with that.
I have a little the same disease than your Dad & you : il will like to keep them all, while having a sort of ring to rule them all which sound the best ! Not possible has the speaker is not alone in the result !
I dream of a huge manoir with dedicated rooms for different stuffs : OB, Compression drivers, pannels, classic, monitors.... I see a doctor for that ! But I'm damned : hes has the same disease !
Ok sorry to troll, let back to diamond tweeter and perfect transcient discussions !
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Up to what FREQ do you think a resonant enclosure affect the mid?
thats the BBC paper about the reosnant enclosure theory
http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/rd/pubs/reports/1977-03.pdf
thats the BBC paper about the reosnant enclosure theory
http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/rd/pubs/reports/1977-03.pdf
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I actually think it's a good thing that designers are individual enough to make their own decisions to achieve what they think is best, leaving the listeners to decide for themselves.
I've listened extensively to Revel Salon's and Vivid G2's, both of which exhibit a more linear power response through the MT crossover, but I still prefer the B&W's, but I concede that some degree of room treatment is very necessary to get them sounding perfect.
Sure, a large driver beams, but some people swear by the use of full range drivers, large ribbons, electrostatic panels, and large horns which all beam like crazy.
Then there are designs such as Jim Thiel's which employ single pole filters, guaranteeing a messy vertical pattern as a trade for on axis impulse response.
According to what I hear in my room : around the Si's 6th Octave
Can experiment yourself with an old speaker by decoupling mid & treble without screw with foam gasket, plastiscine gaskett, the same material with no gaskett but just two or the coupling poinst with the sealed tweeter and the enclosure, etc... and play a lot with the floor coupling. Basicly it affects : the soundstage, the tonal balance...
PS : thanks a lot for the BBC paper, I hadn't it 🙂
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About Sd, filtering and Soundstage, I like and was surprised also by the testimonial of T. Gravsen about the unafordable Flag Ship of Martin Logan (near the end of the review) Munich-High-End-2016
Zero issue speaker....
was it also because the room at the show ?
Zero issue speaker....
was it also because the room at the show ?
I too have listened to the Revel Salon, very good speakers indeed I do too still preferred B&W800.
Regarding Vivid, I am kind of surprised about your findings as I have found them to sound very close to my 800 in tonal scale. Don't know which one I would prefer in that case, hard to say. The Vivid is certainly easier to drive!
You make a good point. B&W800 need significant treatment in the room and a very, very capable power amp to drive them.
I didn't fully realize their capabilities until I was able to have both factor together.
At that point you get pin point soundstage, power and delicacy, music flaws without coming from the speakers at all (I had several people asking me where the sound comes from and when I pointed at the two speakers they had to stand up to check).
Maybe other speakers are more forgiving in both terms of quality of your audio chain and level of treatment of your room and therefore in normal/average listening environment they might be preferable.
For example, at the Axpona they had one room with N802. Since I appreciate these monitors speakers I stopped and listened.
You would think that my bias opinion toward B&W would make me decide the room sounded great regardless whether that was true or not!
Actually, I can say..they sounded terrible!!! Flat, colored, lifeless....everything you people are describing here about B&W.
Reason there was very simple: The electronics were not up to the task and could not drive the N802 properly!
In order to get the real feel for these speakers, you have to listen to them when connected to an up-to-task sound system and you will definitely change your mind or at least appreciate what these speakers can do.
Just my two cents! I know we are talking about technical flaws, dip at 2KHz and restricted lobe, but again, I want to reinforce the concept that in a proper listening room you do not have the problem you think in theory you have!
I can invite people over to listen if anybody wants to is more than welcome!
BTW: I am looking at the pictures from Munich audio show!! EEEcckkkk!!! It seems a 1000 times better than the Chicago Audio show!!!!
Anybody heard D3 yet?
Looking at the reviewed they are all stellar which makes me very curious actually!!
Looking at the reviewed they are all stellar which makes me very curious actually!!
after hearing the diamond series I doubt they can improve it, good thing is that the diamond series will drop in price!!!
You may be right Gabdx. Stereophile's measurements say it's the same speaker with less bass.
I'm sure they could improve it if they cared to. Setting the tweeter back and smoothing out the treble response so it doesn't sound like a hearing aid would go a long way. 🙂
I'm sure they could improve it if they cared to. Setting the tweeter back and smoothing out the treble response so it doesn't sound like a hearing aid would go a long way. 🙂