Thanks for the suggestions.
SB Acoustics is made in Indonesia, and they do not have a Taiwanese (or Chinese) distributor on their webpage. I'll probably ask them directly. But if it is shipped only to me, I still face shipping and import charges way steeper than a distributor would.
Fountek is made in China, and I have had contact with them in the past. It was a very platonic exchange of messages, and they were not overly eager to deal with me directly.
It used to be that many drivers "from all over the world" were made in Taiwan. Most of them have relocated their factories in China now.
Tang Band is an example... I was fortunate enough to get a couple of drivers they had around the office. But big orders would come from China.
You would think that the taiwanese factories that still exist would have learned a lot from making all the renowned drivers of the past and applied that when continuing to produce drivers... unfortunately, they have since aimed towards the bottom of the barrel, the really cheap stuff that mostly sounds terrible, sometimes almost good enough, but never amazing.
X said the Dayton are made in Taiwan, but I have been unable to discover the factory.
Been looking them up some more... Those little SB really look fantastic. They are double the price of a Vifa TC9 though...
Well,
I was disappointed when I listened to my little Aura wannabe. But I'm not sure if it's a construction flaw, a defect, or just the inherent behavior of the driver.
Here's a short clip, with a little 3db boost at 150Hz to show the buzzing .. what do you think?
https://youtu.be/_OJktleK9QY
I was disappointed when I listened to my little Aura wannabe. But I'm not sure if it's a construction flaw, a defect, or just the inherent behavior of the driver.
Here's a short clip, with a little 3db boost at 150Hz to show the buzzing .. what do you think?
https://youtu.be/_OJktleK9QY
That buzzing is strange - almost like a flapping noise made because the rubber surround is going through such a large excursion that it rubs on itself. Otherwise I don't see where that sound comes from. Are you exceeding xmax when you hear that? What is xmax? Note that T9FD is 2.5mm, it looks like it was moving close to 10mm when it made that sound.
Regarding Dayton and Taiwan, I just got another pair of drivers: DC130A-8, and it says made in Taiwan. So I know there is a big factory somewhere. Have you asked Parts Express (or Dayton) if they can have items shipped straight from Taiwan to you rather than from their warehouse in Ohio USA?
Don't know anything about the x-max, besides what the seller said: long-throw, good bass.
The video above is not even at listening level. that's like barely louder than elevator music level.
I wish I could find some Dayton factories. They are coy about where they do manufacture their drivers... there's nothing on the net. I'll try contacting them directly, but I'm afraid I already know the answer.
The video above is not even at listening level. that's like barely louder than elevator music level.
I wish I could find some Dayton factories. They are coy about where they do manufacture their drivers... there's nothing on the net. I'll try contacting them directly, but I'm afraid I already know the answer.
Have you mounted it to a box or baffle ? The sound levels without one will be very weak due to self cancellation.
Aaaahhhhh...
Just finished all the Halloween activities here. I'm dead tired, but so happy 'cos everything was a success.
I still need to clean so much things up now, but I had to have another look at the Aura.
Nothing seems to be hitting, it all looks clean. I'll put it in a TABAQ tomorrow and take a reading.
For now, it looks like it is wired the wrong way..
This is what I get from one of the drivers!
Just finished all the Halloween activities here. I'm dead tired, but so happy 'cos everything was a success.
I still need to clean so much things up now, but I had to have another look at the Aura.
Nothing seems to be hitting, it all looks clean. I'll put it in a TABAQ tomorrow and take a reading.
For now, it looks like it is wired the wrong way..
This is what I get from one of the drivers!
Attachments
Ok,
forget the other posts, this driver was just in the wrong enclosure for it.
I placed it into my TABAQ and measured. It's not bad, has a nice lower extension in the TABAQ, but there is still that abrupt fall at 12KHz. (first graph)
I tried a bunch of EQ combinations trying to bring the upper end to at least 15k (the limit of my hearing), and the best I could get is this second graph, using a 15db (!) boost at 15k with a Q=6 (!!)
Looks like this would be a good candidate for a tweeter helper from 12K and up.
forget the other posts, this driver was just in the wrong enclosure for it.
I placed it into my TABAQ and measured. It's not bad, has a nice lower extension in the TABAQ, but there is still that abrupt fall at 12KHz. (first graph)
I tried a bunch of EQ combinations trying to bring the upper end to at least 15k (the limit of my hearing), and the best I could get is this second graph, using a 15db (!) boost at 15k with a Q=6 (!!)
Looks like this would be a good candidate for a tweeter helper from 12K and up.
Attachments
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Well at least you know now they are not suited for full range line array duty. Too bad though, since you have trouble getting the vifa drivers over there. This one looked pretty good on paper. Try to get at least one or two TC or TG drivers just to listen. You'd have to be pretty sure you'd like them before paying trough the nose for shipping.
Well, with what you and others have done with the TC or TG drivers, it's almost a no-brainer!
Still... I'd rather not have to justify that kind of spending with the significant other!
I was wondering if I added a tweeter in the middle of that line array, would it be enough?
Would having a line capable of over 12KHz be beneficiary over a line limited at 12KHz helped by a single tweeter doing over 12KHz?
Is there enough information within a song to justify the line above 12KHz?
Still... I'd rather not have to justify that kind of spending with the significant other!
I was wondering if I added a tweeter in the middle of that line array, would it be enough?
Would having a line capable of over 12KHz be beneficiary over a line limited at 12KHz helped by a single tweeter doing over 12KHz?
Is there enough information within a song to justify the line above 12KHz?
I think your reasoning is sound. A single tweeter may work just fine,particularly if you filter the neighbouring drivers as midranges.
It seems to work pretty good for Adyton on their Imagic line for instance. Though I haven't heard them personally I've heard very enthusiastic stories on them.
As long as you don't vary much in the listening distance to the speakers it might work very well. It's always hard to mix line source with point source but I bet my full range lines don't act as a pure line source either over their entire band width. The difference being that the transition would be more gradual.
But whatever you end up choosing, be sure to like a single speaker sound. You'll get that sound back on steroids 😀.
For me the TC9 was a no brainer due to the slightly rising FR response and clean measurements. That and the fact I have a thing for paper drivers. I had to choose between TC9 and TG9, both were very much a possibility at that time. I chose paper. But that's just my preference. Sure I've spend some time thinking about that later on, especially when things weren't dialled in that well. But now with more time and experience I know what these can do. Now I just don't look back anymore.
So pick one you like, stick with it and enjoy. But if going with a tweeter, what type and which one?
For drivers I've seen several array builds with Fountec, HiVi, Dayton and of coarse Vifa. Don't just go for cheap, go for what you can live with. As you've had a taste of array sound already you know what's waiting on the other end. Go for plenty Sd area and reasonable xmax figures (for me the Vifa's have just enough, I would have liked some extra for piece of mind). Unless of coarse you want some bass towers as well 😉.
The thing that worried me about your measurement was the ringing in the impulse. One driver could sound very pleasing (to a lot of people, look at the subjective rounds) but what would that do x25 or 50 even. It's harder to get rid of such behaviour than to add it later on. Just my opinion. Kind of why I said you need to try at least one TC or TG. It may even sound boring compared to your current find. Knowing what and why you hear it is very important to me. If you know what it is, you can use it to your advantage.
As long as you don't vary much in the listening distance to the speakers it might work very well. It's always hard to mix line source with point source but I bet my full range lines don't act as a pure line source either over their entire band width. The difference being that the transition would be more gradual.
But whatever you end up choosing, be sure to like a single speaker sound. You'll get that sound back on steroids 😀.
For me the TC9 was a no brainer due to the slightly rising FR response and clean measurements. That and the fact I have a thing for paper drivers. I had to choose between TC9 and TG9, both were very much a possibility at that time. I chose paper. But that's just my preference. Sure I've spend some time thinking about that later on, especially when things weren't dialled in that well. But now with more time and experience I know what these can do. Now I just don't look back anymore.
So pick one you like, stick with it and enjoy. But if going with a tweeter, what type and which one?
For drivers I've seen several array builds with Fountec, HiVi, Dayton and of coarse Vifa. Don't just go for cheap, go for what you can live with. As you've had a taste of array sound already you know what's waiting on the other end. Go for plenty Sd area and reasonable xmax figures (for me the Vifa's have just enough, I would have liked some extra for piece of mind). Unless of coarse you want some bass towers as well 😉.
The thing that worried me about your measurement was the ringing in the impulse. One driver could sound very pleasing (to a lot of people, look at the subjective rounds) but what would that do x25 or 50 even. It's harder to get rid of such behaviour than to add it later on. Just my opinion. Kind of why I said you need to try at least one TC or TG. It may even sound boring compared to your current find. Knowing what and why you hear it is very important to me. If you know what it is, you can use it to your advantage.
I forgot that, in my current listening place, having a tweeter in the middle of the array would not place it at ear level, quite a bit higher. So, remembering about the Two Towers ambient drivers, and reading some info in another thread, I was thinking of adding a super tweeter (10KHz and above) on top of the arrays, firing at the ceiling.
wesayso, I couldn't find if you posted an original freq response and impulse from a single TC9 driver. Was it anything close to what X posted? like this:
If so, then indeed, there is some ringing with the impulse of the Aura. Funny I couldn't really hear it, and it seemed pretty sharp to my ears... but I didn't really have a listening session with it yet, having done a single driver only. I need to add the second one and sit down to have a real listening session. I only did sweeps with it today.
wesayso, I couldn't find if you posted an original freq response and impulse from a single TC9 driver. Was it anything close to what X posted? like this:
If so, then indeed, there is some ringing with the impulse of the Aura. Funny I couldn't really hear it, and it seemed pretty sharp to my ears... but I didn't really have a listening session with it yet, having done a single driver only. I need to add the second one and sit down to have a real listening session. I only did sweeps with it today.
It's correct that I haven't posted a single one. It is like the one posted by X, and pretty much every one else who measured it.
I doubt you could easily tell on your driver without comparing it to another (cleaner) driver directly. As said, it can even sound pleasing to some. But if you have 25 firing at once, but not exactly hitting the listening spot at the same time it might well be a bit too much. But you'd need to be sure it is the driver, look at BYRTT's posts about this, electrical components can add their own signature to an impulse. I've seen that when I was using my DAC trough USB. The impulse was much cleaner when connected with optical.
I first blamed other things as I didn't expect to find that kind of difference. Like I said, knowing what you have is important to get what you want 😉.
I doubt you could easily tell on your driver without comparing it to another (cleaner) driver directly. As said, it can even sound pleasing to some. But if you have 25 firing at once, but not exactly hitting the listening spot at the same time it might well be a bit too much. But you'd need to be sure it is the driver, look at BYRTT's posts about this, electrical components can add their own signature to an impulse. I've seen that when I was using my DAC trough USB. The impulse was much cleaner when connected with optical.
I first blamed other things as I didn't expect to find that kind of difference. Like I said, knowing what you have is important to get what you want 😉.
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As wesayso writes ones electric gear can have some of the ringing flaws build in especial DAC/ADC can be guilty for this and if this is case we can't compare perceval Aura IR verse xrk971's TC9 IR, but it can be discovered by hardwire looping back ones measurement gear chain by a REW sweep to see if electric gear colour anything.
Looking measurements the two drivers the two nasty rings that make Aura look bad compared TC9 after we with eye have polarity inversed, think ther's a possibility its just because the 12kHz cut off slope is so steep and probably steeper than normal BW2 roll off, therefor think there possibility two rings would be repaired and go away if a tweeter is blended with perfect set IRR filters plus acoustic blending.
Another story is have 8 times TC9FD laying around and being realistic think never would get them all into duty, you can have 2 of them for free being low cost shipped to Taiwan if you accept that and then local diagnose their performance. Should you like also in same package TG9 in 8 ohm version i can look into get a pair but cost TG9's be yours the TC9's free : )
Looking measurements the two drivers the two nasty rings that make Aura look bad compared TC9 after we with eye have polarity inversed, think ther's a possibility its just because the 12kHz cut off slope is so steep and probably steeper than normal BW2 roll off, therefor think there possibility two rings would be repaired and go away if a tweeter is blended with perfect set IRR filters plus acoustic blending.
Another story is have 8 times TC9FD laying around and being realistic think never would get them all into duty, you can have 2 of them for free being low cost shipped to Taiwan if you accept that and then local diagnose their performance. Should you like also in same package TG9 in 8 ohm version i can look into get a pair but cost TG9's be yours the TC9's free : )
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That's a very kind offer BYRTT! And a way for Perceval to at least get to hear them and compare.
BYRTT, that is a very kind offer indeed. I am humbled by the generosity from DIYAudio members. Is there anything you think you would like to have from Asia? We can make an exchange.
Also, are you saying that the ringing of the Aura could be controlled by adding a tweeter on top?
Also, are you saying that the ringing of the Aura could be controlled by adding a tweeter on top?
Regarding TC9FD great you like idea because no matter it suit your setup and taste will tell you what it stands for and get a feeling for X's various builds and wesayso's array is build upon. Should i build a array it would be TC9FD because of drivers favorable cost/performance and fantastic shared data from Netherlands, but have so many ideas for FAST systems, Trynergy, Synergy or the Linkwizt pipe clones as Barleywater share.
Give me some hours and get back at PM regarding shipping and a little study how BW1/2/3/4/6/8 cut off slopes compare at ringing, and how it should be possible repair Aura ringing to even better than TC9FD at design axis caused dedicated tweeter will probably go higher than TC9.
Give me some hours and get back at PM regarding shipping and a little study how BW1/2/3/4/6/8 cut off slopes compare at ringing, and how it should be possible repair Aura ringing to even better than TC9FD at design axis caused dedicated tweeter will probably go higher than TC9.
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