Hello,
I suggest a Tone Tubby 12" alnico driver in OB perside. Even on a 24" wide baffle for the TT 12" & even just 24" high you can get nice detailed bass, just take a single sub XO way low .You can then use your 8 or 10" AN driver on the smallest width you can get away with. There is math involved to help you on baffle width, but smaller is allways better for imaging & stage for your wideband driver IME. I use a little 5" SEAS mca15rcy & then 6"diam x3" deep sono tubes to slip over each 5" & then taped to baffle on back, this is to move the sound stage back, way back...... You can just roll then TT driver with a coil, then band pass the AN to a real small 2-3" FR driver fostex or whatever & roll that in with just a cap. If your AN driver is behaved to 2-5k you are in ..The TT driver is smooth enough for easy XO to AN & then rest is easy. I would not try to take a sealed or ported gig up past 75 with OB drivers. It will be just O.k., not great. you will miss out on the percieved detail & speed of OB bass. You can however get away with a good single powered sub below 70hz. Lower than that if possible. 2 -TT 12" alnico drivers perside would be amazing.Bi-amp it if you want also with even a good tube amp on the TT 12's. SS only needed on the powered sub. If your going to Cali.. your in TT land .
I suggest a Tone Tubby 12" alnico driver in OB perside. Even on a 24" wide baffle for the TT 12" & even just 24" high you can get nice detailed bass, just take a single sub XO way low .You can then use your 8 or 10" AN driver on the smallest width you can get away with. There is math involved to help you on baffle width, but smaller is allways better for imaging & stage for your wideband driver IME. I use a little 5" SEAS mca15rcy & then 6"diam x3" deep sono tubes to slip over each 5" & then taped to baffle on back, this is to move the sound stage back, way back...... You can just roll then TT driver with a coil, then band pass the AN to a real small 2-3" FR driver fostex or whatever & roll that in with just a cap. If your AN driver is behaved to 2-5k you are in ..The TT driver is smooth enough for easy XO to AN & then rest is easy. I would not try to take a sealed or ported gig up past 75 with OB drivers. It will be just O.k., not great. you will miss out on the percieved detail & speed of OB bass. You can however get away with a good single powered sub below 70hz. Lower than that if possible. 2 -TT 12" alnico drivers perside would be amazing.Bi-amp it if you want also with even a good tube amp on the TT 12's. SS only needed on the powered sub. If your going to Cali.. your in TT land .
JandG: Thanks for your reply!
Thanks for the suggestions. Unfortunately my requirements do not allow a baffle width of more than 40cm. 24" makes about 60cm which will be to large. This is why I wanted to know about a between "bass-reflex/open baffle" design. This would be less than 40cm wide with an 15" and would help a little more with bass response.
I would like to ask where are the measurements found for the baffle? I have already been to the library and have not been able to find anything. The Qts is important but there will many trade-offs with a Qts of ,53 and ,91 and I am unable to accurately guess the measurements.
Thanks for the suggestions. Unfortunately my requirements do not allow a baffle width of more than 40cm. 24" makes about 60cm which will be to large. This is why I wanted to know about a between "bass-reflex/open baffle" design. This would be less than 40cm wide with an 15" and would help a little more with bass response.
I would like to ask where are the measurements found for the baffle? I have already been to the library and have not been able to find anything. The Qts is important but there will many trade-offs with a Qts of ,53 and ,91 and I am unable to accurately guess the measurements.
despotic931: I believe the plans are similar to the normal 2.8 (a very basic bass-reflex design) that I have built. The AN drivers are very flexible so you have many options. IMO, I didn't like all measurments of the bass-reflex vent provided and I have experiemented a lot. Look at my previous post. I am using the AN Super8 with an 8cm vent that seems to produce a harder bass than let's say 12cm vent. I have also used a 16cm vent that was very harmonic and smooth but with less bass. I hope this helps!
To all: I have possibly found the information - the bass driver for open baffle that I want to employ is here:
http://www.pvconsultants.com/audio/boxmodel/uhframe.htm
It is called a "U-frame" - any experience with this?
MV
To all: I have possibly found the information - the bass driver for open baffle that I want to employ is here:
http://www.pvconsultants.com/audio/boxmodel/uhframe.htm
It is called a "U-frame" - any experience with this?
MV
Well, a U frame baffle is simply a baffle with the edges folded back. Nothing mysterious about them -they're moderately popular. Polar response begins to shift away from the classic figure 8 dipolar toward a cardioid pattern, which increases with the depth of the wings. Never quite makes it, but that's the general way it goes. You also begin to see additional cavity resonances -a U frame has quite a bit in common with an open-back cabinet. You can exploit these resonances, or damp them out, depending on your design goals.
Looking at the rough dimensions for that CSA box, & roughly setting driver & vent heights, then you can expect something like the attached with the vent you have at the moment.
Looking at the rough dimensions for that CSA box, & roughly setting driver & vent heights, then you can expect something like the attached with the vent you have at the moment.
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mavallarino said:
CSA stands for "CommonSenseAudio", also known as commonsenseaudio
It is easy to get confused though with all these abbreviations getting thrown around...
-Justin
Yes, thank you Justin - too many symbols!
Can we maybe move this argument to another forum? I don't think this is a good conversation for the AN10"... Is there a dedicated forum for Open Baffel or Bass enclosures?
Another question while we are still here... The U-frame seems like it would work with the right driver; what would be the ideal driver parametres? My guess would be medium Qts from .35 to no more .50 and maybe 97dbl to match the Super8s. This is cpmpletely empirical and guessing... I think with higher Qts there would be too much bass, is this a good assumption?
Thanks again and sorry for so many ignorant questions!
MV
Can we maybe move this argument to another forum? I don't think this is a good conversation for the AN10"... Is there a dedicated forum for Open Baffel or Bass enclosures?
Another question while we are still here... The U-frame seems like it would work with the right driver; what would be the ideal driver parametres? My guess would be medium Qts from .35 to no more .50 and maybe 97dbl to match the Super8s. This is cpmpletely empirical and guessing... I think with higher Qts there would be too much bass, is this a good assumption?
Thanks again and sorry for so many ignorant questions!
MV
A high Q unit should do nicely & obviate the need for a U frame. Martin's favourite, the Eminence Alpha 15 should do nicely. Alternatively, if you desperately want a U-frame, the Beta 15, with the side-pieces tapered so they are deep at the bottom, and come to a point at the top, would work fine. I suggest you read these: http://www.quarter-wave.com/OBs/OB_Theory.html
David's designs may be 'sub-optimal' in some sense of the word, but I daresay he has access to the same computer design programs we all do.
These are his own speakers, and that's good reason to think he may know something about exploiting them. He has also been a dealer for Fostex and Lowther and has obviously had a chance to listen to these drivers each in a variety of enclosures. I chose to build them because I think they're likely to be cost-effective.
w
My drivers are stuck in a mail store this last 21 days without contact or response. Thank you Parcelforce.
These are his own speakers, and that's good reason to think he may know something about exploiting them. He has also been a dealer for Fostex and Lowther and has obviously had a chance to listen to these drivers each in a variety of enclosures. I chose to build them because I think they're likely to be cost-effective.
w
My drivers are stuck in a mail store this last 21 days without contact or response. Thank you Parcelforce.
mavallarino said:
No problem! And I don't think the thread should be moved as there are more than one conversations going on here, and they are all starting from the AN10. Oh, and there is no such thing as an ignorant question, besides the beautiful thing about forums such as these is the fact that tomorrow you very well may be explaining something to me.
wakibaki said:
That is a good point. The reason I ask is because I am leaning towards the AN10 as my first DIY full range project, and am wondering what the optimal enclosure for it would be. Right now I am thinking either the AN10 in a 2.8 MkII, or a 206E in some form of a BLH design.
Problem is, David Dicks has a nasty habit of stuffing various drivers into generic cabinets neither designed nor properly optimised for them. For example, the smaller AN drivers are not, in fact, ideally suited to BR loading, whatever the claims made. It can do nothing about the rising response, no compensation is made for baffle step-loss, & the tuning is somewhat off, as shown in the plots above.
The 10in will work better in a box type cabinet than their smaller units. For e.g., this MLTL: internal dimensions 56in x 13.5in x 10.5in (HxWxD). Zdriver 21in, vent 3in diameter x 1in long. Line the top, back & one side wall from the top 45in down. Brace to suit, and it's a max-flat alignment, so adjust & damp to taste / your own room / system in practice.
The 10in will work better in a box type cabinet than their smaller units. For e.g., this MLTL: internal dimensions 56in x 13.5in x 10.5in (HxWxD). Zdriver 21in, vent 3in diameter x 1in long. Line the top, back & one side wall from the top 45in down. Brace to suit, and it's a max-flat alignment, so adjust & damp to taste / your own room / system in practice.
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The 206 works nicely in a BLH (as do the 8in ANs actually). Something like Ron's Dallas II / III, the Factory 208ESigma enclosure (works well with the regular 206) or the attached (if you don't mind a big cabinet).
You can make this (and the 8in ANs) work in an MLTL, but they need correction, via a BSC circuit to get the upper-end into line, and a bit of additional series resistance to artificially raise Qe & improve the LF characteristics.
What you'd consider optimal depends very much on what you most value in a speaker -flat response? Transient handling? Image scale / size? Overall efficiency? Room size? Aesthetics? It also depends on the rest of your system; particularly your amplifier. And so on.
You can make this (and the 8in ANs) work in an MLTL, but they need correction, via a BSC circuit to get the upper-end into line, and a bit of additional series resistance to artificially raise Qe & improve the LF characteristics.
What you'd consider optimal depends very much on what you most value in a speaker -flat response? Transient handling? Image scale / size? Overall efficiency? Room size? Aesthetics? It also depends on the rest of your system; particularly your amplifier. And so on.
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I beg your pardon? I have nothing personal against David; I've never met, nor spoken to the man. He runs the company & is responsible for it, so I refer to him, just as I would to anyone else, such as Ed of the Hornshoppe, Vinnie of Red Wine Audio, Dave of Planet10, Louis of Omega, Earl of GedLee, Peter of World Designs, Darren of Slatedeck etc. What's the problem with that? You're reading something into the above that isn't there. I'm simply making an observation: those cabinets were not designed & optimised for AN drivers (FYI they pre-date their creation by several years) , and are also used for the Lowthers, PAudio, and Fostex drivers also available from David, or if you have an issue with the use of first names, www.commonsenseaudio.com
As a company, I'm the first to say that they deserve considerable credit for creating a new range of drive units -the 10in, and cast-frame models are IMO particularly interesting, as they have no rivals. But you'll extract more of their performance if you used them in different enclosures. I've nothing to gain by saying that, and I'm certainly not alone in considering these boxes sub-optimal for the drivers you know -many very highly respected designers over the past few years have made exactly the same point. Given the rather dubious statements presented as fact WRT cabinet design on their site too, a little dissent is both healthy, and expected. You can believe me or not of course -all the same as far as I'm concerned.
As a company, I'm the first to say that they deserve considerable credit for creating a new range of drive units -the 10in, and cast-frame models are IMO particularly interesting, as they have no rivals. But you'll extract more of their performance if you used them in different enclosures. I've nothing to gain by saying that, and I'm certainly not alone in considering these boxes sub-optimal for the drivers you know -many very highly respected designers over the past few years have made exactly the same point. Given the rather dubious statements presented as fact WRT cabinet design on their site too, a little dissent is both healthy, and expected. You can believe me or not of course -all the same as far as I'm concerned.
>>> The 10in will work better in a box type cabinet than their smaller units. For e.g., this MLTL: internal dimensions 56in x 13.5in x 10.5in (HxWxD). Zdriver 21in, vent 3in diameter x 1in long. Line the top, back & one side wall from the top 45in down. Brace to suit, and it's a max-flat alignment, so adjust & damp to taste / your own room / system in practice.
That looks like a lovely plot Scottmoose.
That looks like a lovely plot Scottmoose.
Cheers Jeff. It's not a small box, but bigger is better... 
The Super10 is supposed to be the sleeper of the AN range; hopefully I'll get chance to hear a pair some day. The 6.5in & 8in models are pretty good, though not quite as good as their Fostex rivals, and in the UK, aren't really much cheaper, so over here, the latter tends to be the canny choice in those sizes. The new cast frame range might change that though. Be interesting to find out. I think Spectrumaudio are getting some shortly, which will make prices more attractive in Europe.
Strange how we go through phases isn't it? I used to design max-flat, went toward an EBS phase to compensate somewhat for room gain, now I've reverted to max-flat & let people damp to taste. That'll be the BIB influence I figure that as all rooms & systems are different, it's best to give a ~optimal flat alignment & let the end user adjust to suit their own requrements. YMMV of course.
The Super10 is supposed to be the sleeper of the AN range; hopefully I'll get chance to hear a pair some day. The 6.5in & 8in models are pretty good, though not quite as good as their Fostex rivals, and in the UK, aren't really much cheaper, so over here, the latter tends to be the canny choice in those sizes. The new cast frame range might change that though. Be interesting to find out. I think Spectrumaudio are getting some shortly, which will make prices more attractive in Europe. Strange how we go through phases isn't it? I used to design max-flat, went toward an EBS phase to compensate somewhat for room gain, now I've reverted to max-flat & let people damp to taste. That'll be the BIB influence
I figure that as all rooms & systems are different, it's best to give a ~optimal flat alignment & let the end user adjust to suit their own requrements. YMMV of course.- Status
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