nah - I'd put the 15 in the standard 1951 K15 Karlson and let it peak "a bit"
- but even a regular Karlson 15 is a big box
look - here's groundplane of a Karlson with Beta 15cx whose specs are close to the Nirvana 15 - how much peaking would you call this at the knee?
btw - I tightened up the Karlson's rear shelf lowpass gap to get Beta 15cx to play DAFOS drums reasonably taut
Outdoors K15 ~groundplane JBL M151 vs Beta 15CX
- but even a regular Karlson 15 is a big boxlook - here's groundplane of a Karlson with Beta 15cx whose specs are close to the Nirvana 15 - how much peaking would you call this at the knee?
btw - I tightened up the Karlson's rear shelf lowpass gap to get Beta 15cx to play DAFOS drums reasonably taut
Outdoors K15 ~groundplane JBL M151 vs Beta 15CX
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for the 15 one could also go with Dick's 5.8 cubic foot reflex and it they love it = fine, or make a removable port panel and experiment with 'whatever' including distributed semi-resistive vents - the old Karlson provides another option - - -can you make a K that sounds pretty good for 20cm Fostex?
Well, it's about the best option of a vaguely reasonable size I've seen to date for it, that's for sure.
And thats only looking at K15 bass response. What else one observes
with K15 is greatly reduced cone motion, two sides of one coin...
And much wider dispersion pattern, at the price of some reverb.
That size K, overstuffed with 18 (barely fits), approaches diminishing
returns. But you stick in anything 15 or smaller: 12,10, or 8 will blow
your mind, and your ears! Well worth this rather large, but not more
than one 4x8 sheet cabinet. Smaller FR speakers almost love it more
than triaxial 15 it was designed for.
Its about the most forgiving cabinet one could ever drop a random
loudspeaker into without tuning for a specific match. Its well proven,
but almost lost technology. Get informed on it while you still can.
Freddi tends to host plans on free servers that quickly disappear.
Greets!
Am I missing something? I didn't see any measured specs for the cast 10, etc. and Freddy's measurements of a pair of Super 10s awhile back are so far off from published that it seems reasonable to me that the others are off a lot too, making adding 10% seem just a 'drop in the bucket' to what's really needed if not ~aperiodic.
GM
Am I missing something? I didn't see any measured specs for the cast 10, etc. and Freddy's measurements of a pair of Super 10s awhile back are so far off from published that it seems reasonable to me that the others are off a lot too, making adding 10% seem just a 'drop in the bucket' to what's really needed if not ~aperiodic.
GM
OK...so therefore I could get the drivers tested and/or place them in a 156lt box with two of the air vents from Parts Express.."Variovent and a ScanSpeak Flow Resistance Vent" ..place a couple of these in and adjust as the room response dictates.....
I guess GM you're quite correct in your intimation, get the drivers tested before committing anything major to cabinet structure....as it isn't the cost of the testing...it is the effort and time involved in getting the cabinets fitting right, looking good and being acceptable to partners etc....and then finding the drivers don't perform as intended or as published specs indicate...so test first..build accordingly...gosh I think I'm getting to 1st base here! A cabinet for Super Cast 10inch: 476cm W X 375cm D X 1118 H add a couple of variovents, but only build folowing checking of specs, pack accordingly..OK..I reckon I can manage this.
Rgds: Dave
I guess GM you're quite correct in your intimation, get the drivers tested before committing anything major to cabinet structure....as it isn't the cost of the testing...it is the effort and time involved in getting the cabinets fitting right, looking good and being acceptable to partners etc....and then finding the drivers don't perform as intended or as published specs indicate...so test first..build accordingly...gosh I think I'm getting to 1st base here! A cabinet for Super Cast 10inch: 476cm W X 375cm D X 1118 H add a couple of variovents, but only build folowing checking of specs, pack accordingly..OK..I reckon I can manage this.
Rgds: Dave
my hat in the ring
I also have a pair of the super cast frame 10
That's what this thread should ONLY be about. I bought them because I am curious to see just what they can do. With a small X max, I have my doubts as to their REAL full range potential. With any luck and motivation, today I can load them into a small one cubic foot slot load vented enclosure to test them for their midrange performance. Will get back here afterwards.
Curious to hear from others who have placed them in any enclosure what so ever.
I also have a pair of the super cast frame 10
That's what this thread should ONLY be about. I bought them because I am curious to see just what they can do. With a small X max, I have my doubts as to their REAL full range potential. With any luck and motivation, today I can load them into a small one cubic foot slot load vented enclosure to test them for their midrange performance. Will get back here afterwards.
Curious to hear from others who have placed them in any enclosure what so ever.
I shouldn't have commented as don't have the cast frame 10" but my stamped frame Super10 have fs ~1/2 octave above spec and qts higher than spec - not to say that makes the driver "bad" - its worth buying a woofer tester. re:variovent - that might kill the tone with a light driver. Reflex probably should be tuned where it sounds "good". (TS may not hold up under dynamic conditions) Stamped frame Super10 on axis exhibits a rising characteristic with extended highs. I'd expect cast frame Super10 to be good. I had stamped frame Super10 in a 70 liter reflex tuned to 42Hz (too low imo) and the 15" Karlson. Being back in Karlson's cavity, tone is mellowed and baffle step filter is not needed. A narrow notch filter around 3K might (?) help. (Best Vas test seemed with using a sealed box)
~on axis comparison of stamped frame Super10 vs large Advent
(outdoors on a barrel and near a house wall as I was measuring Bose 901 that day)
1/24 octave in a cramped kitchen - Super10 stamped frame in 70 liter reflex vs Karlson
most of the difference in high frequencies is from the K's 30 degree upwards tilt going above the mic
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
~on axis comparison of stamped frame Super10 vs large Advent
(outdoors on a barrel and near a house wall as I was measuring Bose 901 that day)
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
1/24 octave in a cramped kitchen - Super10 stamped frame in 70 liter reflex vs Karlson
most of the difference in high frequencies is from the K's 30 degree upwards tilt going above the mic
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
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Not AFAIK Greg, I was trying to be optimistic above, as a lot of (not all, but many) AN owners appear to take umbridge at any suggestion that their driver is not the best thing since the pre-sliced bread days. Probably no damage done, given that the pipe / vented cabs. above are so big as to be impractical for the vast majority of people. Ejecting any semblance of tact, the AN drivers are Chinese built IIRC, and the big ones are, in relative terms, very cheap for what you get, ergo are built down to a price. With what I know about most Chinese driver manufacturing, I'd expect QC tolerances for indvidual components in the drivers to be in the +/-10% catagory, minimum.
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Easy there, 'sport', we have children reading these forums.
GM
PS: Note that while specs are nice to have, if there's a 'smallish' max size requirement, then specs tend to not mean much in the scheme of things since you're going to have to do some significant amount of tuning Vs typically just building to spec and maybe fiddling only with stuffing density.
Agreed, after a bit of trying to catch up I wound up just skimming for specs, ignoring the 'noise', so maybe covering 'old ground' in some of my thoughts.
Well, they have rising rate suspensions, so unless you listen at typical TV average levels and only highly compressed source material there will be varying amounts of driver compression on transients in 'FR' mode, i.e. a euphonic of sorts soft clipping like low power tube or SS amps with progressive clipping protection circuits yields.
Unfortunately, just dropping them into any old box won't give you any accurate 'view' of its mids performance, only its HF break-up modes (rising rate) BW and even then if the box is way too acoustically small its excessively under-damped nature will exacerbate any break-up modes 'ringing'.
For the mids then, an OB just wide just enough to support ~160 Hz is required.
GM
Not IMO, the measurements imply just how far off the manufacturer's specs might be, so again, thanks for sharing!
Agreed, some folk's choose to interpret my remarks about box loading performance as if it's a good indication of a driver's wide BW performance and while it can be in some extreme situations, it's normally limited to the driver's box loading capability which is only the BW below its mass corner: (~ 2*Fs/Qts). Any remarks I make about the rest of the driver's performance is based on either subjective personal experience with it and/or my interpretation of any specs, response measurements.
It's then up to the OP though to sift through the accumulated data of mine and any others thoughts, measurements to arrive at what to buy and/or how 'best' to load it based on the needs of the app and since I don't have to listen to it or have any vested interest ($$$) in how much, if any, of my 'work' gets used, I really don't care, contrary to some.
Agreed, highly under-damped motors (> ~1.0 Qts) with light diaphragms are strictly OB/true IB rated IME. (Un)fortunately, excepting tiny TV, clock radio or similar drivers they are pretty much an extinct commodity now unless one either 'dumpster dives' or pays the 'DD' something for his labors.
Agreed, the pioneers of audio addressed the issue of a real world 'best' vented box loading for all point source drivers based on acoustical loading while T/S box designers work it out using a complex electrical analogy that over time has been reduced to a few lumped parameters (Fs, Vas, Qts and a multiplier) in most programs.
Unfortunately, it rarely meets the needs of the app, so usually limited to prosound and serious 'flea' power apps where max acoustical efficiency for a given bulk is the rule rather than the exception.
GM
Thanks, I figured as much, but one doesn't have to be away from the forums long for mass change, so couldn't help but wonder if there had been any new threads/measurements I'd missed.
Agreed, on looks alone I wanted to win the door prize pair at the recent Atlanta DIY Meet (I forget which model now). Frankly, at a glance only its magnet sticker and one little boo-boo on the surround's goop looked 'cheap'/out of place to me, so if they were a door prize only because of the boo-boo, then their QA is right up there with the best. Still doesn't change my extremely negative opinion/attitude towards their grossly misleading T/S specs though. Oh well, they're just taking a chapter from many other well known manufacturer's unconscionable marketing strategies and I don't just mean driver/speaker manufacturers either. So much for truth in advertising.......
GM
hi Scott L. - cool on your Nirvana - they have a lot of treble extension on axis - one of your amps looks almost like a Citation 12 -- Scottmoose re: "made in China" - does this example count?
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Thanks guys. I'm learning.....and like others before me, I'm screaming all the way! I guess I am not expecting much as they are really inexpensive drivers....I was just interested in them..and wanted to see if I could capture something of a Zu look with a nice cab, zippy colour and a nice tweeter...once I could reduce the size of the cab to Zu proportions or a better option.
Kind Regards: Dave
I guess I am not expecting much as they are really inexpensive drivers....I was just interested in them..and wanted to see if I could capture something of a Zu look with a nice cab, zippy colour and a nice tweeter...once I could reduce the size of the cab to Zu proportions or a better option. Kind Regards: Dave
mine still laying around which quit working a decade + ago is also a mod of Nelson's mod - don't have a schematic - seems like build was done by John possibly something last name like "Aderbach"??? - sounded good when working. - had stock Cit.12 in the early 1970's. Might be fun to have blh for cast frame AN10 if didn't get huge - - -maybe bvr?
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