mmm modifying is only an option, it is right that the dac should work fine as is.
Inexpensive is not , 'cheapest' there is some confusion there, its very subjective what is inexpensive, maybe compared to typical excellent audio products? (a good dac is probably around 3k, so maybe 300$ is the max?)
Inexpensive is not , 'cheapest' there is some confusion there, its very subjective what is inexpensive, maybe compared to typical excellent audio products? (a good dac is probably around 3k, so maybe 300$ is the max?)
Cheap/inexpensive and value seldom go together.
Often, if you pay just a little bit more, you get a lot more value.
Schiit is designed and made in the US and they have as much value as the stuff made in China. Often, it's a higher value.
Mike Moffat is their DAC designer.
IMHO, there are no EXCELLENT INEXPENSIVE DACs. Made anywhere.
And again, what is "inexpensive"?
I think we brought up the Toppings which are, by and by, quite good, but they are bettered by other, made in the US, cheaper alternatives.
And stuff like Burson is made in HK -designed in Oz- , but then they are not inexpensive by any means.
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I have no doubt; however, is there an equivalent sounding product to their top DAC made in China? Is someone able to verify and provide insight on the subjective qualities of some Chinese DACs ? As I am right now, and I am also investing more into modifying that DAC ... I cannot say negative things or contradict you; these are my personal opinions, as I own a few DACs that are now sold or in a drawer. I purchased a pair of 'some USA ' made DACs; the price was $299 plus an extra $100 for the DAC and $ 199 for the headphone amp, along with some extra power adapters . To be honest, I found the sound straight from the laptop was similar. I have another, more expensive DAC from Europe, three times the price, and it is a portable model; this too is 'alright' and I never use it. Now my modified EMU0404 is also going the same route as my vinyl setup, which tells you a little bit about how much value there is in some Chinese DACs ... I beg to differ; there are Chinese DACs which cost a fortune and some that are around $2K, and there is not much difference in terms of components from a bargain unit. Implementation can ruin the sound; however, if you like the 'character,' it is easy to change the output stage of a DAC. It is one of the easiest modifications one can perform on 'digital' audio, especially when working on the analog part.
When you say Topping are bettered by USA models, do you have a subjective experience , where you able to compare both or this is rumors/reviews ?
Yes, I've compared the Topping D90LE and a Nitsch DACs. I own one of each of those.
I find the Nitsch much better sounding. Everything else was the same. Both DACs running bit perfect.
It could be the analog section, it could be Mike Moffat's filters and the better Schiit USB clock. I don't know. They are both stock.
I just know the Nitsch sounds better. The treble is smoother, the soundstage deeper. In fact, I just plugged in today a custom SemiSouth F6 and the combination simply blows my mind. The preamp is a CJ ET3SE... there's a wealth of detail in that DAC that is lacking in the Topping.
I find the Nitsch much better sounding. Everything else was the same. Both DACs running bit perfect.
It could be the analog section, it could be Mike Moffat's filters and the better Schiit USB clock. I don't know. They are both stock.
I just know the Nitsch sounds better. The treble is smoother, the soundstage deeper. In fact, I just plugged in today a custom SemiSouth F6 and the combination simply blows my mind. The preamp is a CJ ET3SE... there's a wealth of detail in that DAC that is lacking in the Topping.
That is because they are designed and made by Americans. The air, the food, the culture, the beautiful & intelligent people, the best resources gathered from all over the world with utmost love & care, all that adds to the quality of the DACs made there. Now compare that to China!
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Ay amigo.... it's bad enough Barcelona lost yesterday... now this?
Sometimes....
Donde hacen el WiiM, eh?
Have you listened to the Schiit and Nitsch? If not, then, please, stick to the facts, don't try to be "funny".
The moderators already dropped by.
Sometimes....
Donde hacen el WiiM, eh?
Have you listened to the Schiit and Nitsch? If not, then, please, stick to the facts, don't try to be "funny".
The moderators already dropped by.
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They both have ESS chips. It's not an argument, its a preference... I did not listened to the Nitsch,
Being that I and most of my friends and family aren't willing to spend $1000 on a DAC, $1500 on speakers and $1000 on an amplifier (not to mention the cost f a turntable and its preamp, a streamer or some kind of CD player, and so on), I've always had an interest in 'working person's audio gear.; For me, that usually means buying used, but that can be dangerous, especially for mechanical things like turntables and speakers. DACs have a lot of programmable devices that can 'brick', which also gives me the willies if buying used. Fortunately, I think the sound quality of cheap standalone DACs has really improved over the last 10 years. It used to be that the better widely available USB audio converters were things like the Behringer UCA-202, higher-end PC sound cards, or pro audio digital interfaces. Standalone DACs for hi-fi were very expensive, like Wadia.
Now. take a humble (and already discontinued) cheap DAC like a Topping D10 and compare that to a Wadia DAC circa 1995. Which sounds better in use? Also, compared to $300 (or so) CD players from days of yore like a Pioneer Elite PD-D6J or similar, what sounds better -- that or a Topping D10? I have both, and I decided that the cheap Topping sounds equal to the SACD player, but maybe enough different that I can form a preference based on taste.
So, let's look at the definition of this word 'excellent.' Excellent compared to exactly what?
And as a side note, because I'm interested, and if anyone has been able to directly compare -- Does a Schiit Modi (of whatever generation) sound markedly different from a Topping E30II or an SMSL SU-1? If yes, then how would you describe those differences? I'd say subjective audiophile prose would be appropriate here, because we already have the 'objective' take documented from ASR reviews. I can no longer tell anything from commercial site user reviews because there are so many random viewpoints contradicting each other in those long threads.
My mini-review of the Topping E30II Lite is that it has a pleasant sound, a bit 'electronic' in the high frequencies/upper midrange but less so than $400 CD and SACD players from 15 to 20 years ago (like the aforementioned Pioneer Elite SACD player). The E30II Lite's imaging is pretty much restricted to between the speakers rather than creating a 'bubble of sound floating around' the speakers. I find that the upper partials of cymbals and hand percussion (those 'tinkling' sounds) are not too edgy and electronic. The overall presentation is of a somewhat artificially smooth nature, which I find preferable to 'bright and 'edgy' (which some hear as 'detailed').
Compared to my 'one step into the audiophile abyss' vinyl setup (TD124, ATP-12T tonearm, Denon 103R, Tamura SUTs) the E30II Lite sounds less spacious and more sterile, but still with enough texture in the highs to be enjoyable. It does sound a bit 'canned' and a little 'dead' compared to the more lively sounding vinyl setup. Yet it's still perfectly enjoyable, Enough so that I thoroughly enjoy the convenience of having 1000+ albums on a little hard drive and a slew of radio stations available from the Raspberry Pi player.
So, in the end, if you can only spend a maximum of $200 USD on a cheap DAC, and you want it to sound at least 'good,' is there any particular model that sounds obviously better than the others, or are they all pretty comparable, so it all comes down to a matter of one's personal preference?
PS - To answer the question 'Do any $200 or less DACs sound obviously better than the output from the headphone jack on a typical laptop PC?' I have to say that in comparison to the sound from my vintage 2019 HP laptop, even a Behringer UCA-202 sounds a bit better... to me. Both the Topping D10 (old version) and Topping E30II Lite sound noticeably batter than the laptop's headphone output, again... to me. The laptop output sounds a bit 'harsh yet dull' and murky, muddled... or as a friend of mine put it, "confused."
Now. take a humble (and already discontinued) cheap DAC like a Topping D10 and compare that to a Wadia DAC circa 1995. Which sounds better in use? Also, compared to $300 (or so) CD players from days of yore like a Pioneer Elite PD-D6J or similar, what sounds better -- that or a Topping D10? I have both, and I decided that the cheap Topping sounds equal to the SACD player, but maybe enough different that I can form a preference based on taste.
So, let's look at the definition of this word 'excellent.' Excellent compared to exactly what?
- Excellent compared to any other DACs costing $200 USD or less?
- Excellent value compared to comparable music sources like streamers, iPod, CD players, etc?
- Excelling at what, exactly?
And as a side note, because I'm interested, and if anyone has been able to directly compare -- Does a Schiit Modi (of whatever generation) sound markedly different from a Topping E30II or an SMSL SU-1? If yes, then how would you describe those differences? I'd say subjective audiophile prose would be appropriate here, because we already have the 'objective' take documented from ASR reviews. I can no longer tell anything from commercial site user reviews because there are so many random viewpoints contradicting each other in those long threads.
My mini-review of the Topping E30II Lite is that it has a pleasant sound, a bit 'electronic' in the high frequencies/upper midrange but less so than $400 CD and SACD players from 15 to 20 years ago (like the aforementioned Pioneer Elite SACD player). The E30II Lite's imaging is pretty much restricted to between the speakers rather than creating a 'bubble of sound floating around' the speakers. I find that the upper partials of cymbals and hand percussion (those 'tinkling' sounds) are not too edgy and electronic. The overall presentation is of a somewhat artificially smooth nature, which I find preferable to 'bright and 'edgy' (which some hear as 'detailed').
Compared to my 'one step into the audiophile abyss' vinyl setup (TD124, ATP-12T tonearm, Denon 103R, Tamura SUTs) the E30II Lite sounds less spacious and more sterile, but still with enough texture in the highs to be enjoyable. It does sound a bit 'canned' and a little 'dead' compared to the more lively sounding vinyl setup. Yet it's still perfectly enjoyable, Enough so that I thoroughly enjoy the convenience of having 1000+ albums on a little hard drive and a slew of radio stations available from the Raspberry Pi player.
So, in the end, if you can only spend a maximum of $200 USD on a cheap DAC, and you want it to sound at least 'good,' is there any particular model that sounds obviously better than the others, or are they all pretty comparable, so it all comes down to a matter of one's personal preference?
PS - To answer the question 'Do any $200 or less DACs sound obviously better than the output from the headphone jack on a typical laptop PC?' I have to say that in comparison to the sound from my vintage 2019 HP laptop, even a Behringer UCA-202 sounds a bit better... to me. Both the Topping D10 (old version) and Topping E30II Lite sound noticeably batter than the laptop's headphone output, again... to me. The laptop output sounds a bit 'harsh yet dull' and murky, muddled... or as a friend of mine put it, "confused."
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No, I think the Schiit Unison USB board doesn't have the ESS chip... they call it a multibit. Note how that has options...
My understanding is that the Unison part is the I2S to USB receiver/interface, while the actual DAC 'decoder part may be Delta-Sigma or Multibit depending on model. {Least expensive multibit DAC from Schiit is $299.)
The ESS chips like ES9039xxx or ES9028xxx are Delta-Sigma DAC chips but require an I2S-USB interface to create a 'USB DAC'.
The Unison USB receiver/interface doesn't handle DSD, which is why Schiit DACs are PCM only.
Other I2S-USB interfaces do support DSD, which is why the Chinese Topping and SMSL DACs support playback of DSF files (DSD).
The ESS chips like ES9039xxx or ES9028xxx are Delta-Sigma DAC chips but require an I2S-USB interface to create a 'USB DAC'.
The Unison USB receiver/interface doesn't handle DSD, which is why Schiit DACs are PCM only.
Other I2S-USB interfaces do support DSD, which is why the Chinese Topping and SMSL DACs support playback of DSF files (DSD).
Сan't judge because I haven't heard Modi 2 (AK4490), but it is very similar chip to AK4493S in SU-1 and what we see at photos inside first device? One regulator (perhaps common 3.3V for digital and analog DAC parts inside) and only one 820mF cap for the whole 5V DAC analog power supply (VREF+VDD) directly from USB?
Could be, but I don't do DSD, so I can't help you on that front. I have no opinion on that.
My main thing is to get bitperfect over USB from Android and Chromebook and I'm not going to risk bricking those devices by rooting them and modifying them - I get paid to do that.
So take my comments with that in mind.
Yes, I see now, and that makes sense.
I can't comment because I haven't tried to use my Topping DAC with my Android phone. I don't have a Chromebook.
I don't do Aliexpress.
I tried to buy a WiiM Ultra there when it was on sale all over the Internet. They had the lowest price by 20 bucks. I paid for it. Vendor said that it had shipped.
Shipper never showed the shipment.
Sale went off. Seller refused to honor the sale ( after I had paid for it ) and cancelled the sale. Aliexpress sat on their butt, I could not even leave feedback on the seller.
It took me six weeks to get my money back and the seller cost me 50 bucks because I ended up buying it elsewhere after the sale.
Seller still owes me 50 bucks in damages. If they were in the US, I would have taken them to small claims court.
Forget it. No Aliexpress for me. Vendor is a crook. And I've heard other people complain about the vendors in there.
Paypal and my CC saved the day.
Unfortunate for you. You mis great stuff.
I am getting about 50 shipments a year from ali for years, no bad experience at all.
Same here, no US shipments, we have to pay big money for shipment and taxes. Especially from Ebay.
I am getting about 50 shipments a year from ali for years, no bad experience at all.
Same here, no US shipments, we have to pay big money for shipment and taxes. Especially from Ebay.
Within the US we have no issues... I think the EU has a lot of hidden costs, including VAT. Perhaps you have hidden import charges going into the EU?
Example, I bought a used amp, and a Linn Keel from the EU not so long ago... my cost was 40 bucks to pay for the UPS customs processing for the amp and the Keel came through FedEx with nothing charged. And the cost to ship from the EU to the US was about the same as it costs me to send it within the US/Canada.
The seller of the Keel, a UK based lp12bits.com didn't charge me any sales or VAT. ( I include their name because they are a good source of LP12 bits ). I bought it directly from their site using Paypal.
For Chinese stuff, I find Amazon to be quite good and they have excellent customer service. I've been using them since Y2K.
So, I really don't need Aliexpress.... for one thing, there are too many "clones" in there.
eBay has developed a hair up its a$$. They are charging sales tax on sales of used equipment between private parties, so I've really cut back on using it. I've been there since 1999.
BTW, not cheap... actually expensive... there's a new Schiit DAC coming up this august...
https://www.schiit.com/products/yggy-to-byggy
But it's gonna cost some money. I'm thinking that I should drop them 15 bucks to reserve a spot, so I can get it an early bird for 2999 instead of 3499...
Hmm.....
Example, I bought a used amp, and a Linn Keel from the EU not so long ago... my cost was 40 bucks to pay for the UPS customs processing for the amp and the Keel came through FedEx with nothing charged. And the cost to ship from the EU to the US was about the same as it costs me to send it within the US/Canada.
The seller of the Keel, a UK based lp12bits.com didn't charge me any sales or VAT. ( I include their name because they are a good source of LP12 bits ). I bought it directly from their site using Paypal.
For Chinese stuff, I find Amazon to be quite good and they have excellent customer service. I've been using them since Y2K.
So, I really don't need Aliexpress.... for one thing, there are too many "clones" in there.
eBay has developed a hair up its a$$. They are charging sales tax on sales of used equipment between private parties, so I've really cut back on using it. I've been there since 1999.
BTW, not cheap... actually expensive... there's a new Schiit DAC coming up this august...
https://www.schiit.com/products/yggy-to-byggy
But it's gonna cost some money. I'm thinking that I should drop them 15 bucks to reserve a spot, so I can get it an early bird for 2999 instead of 3499...
Hmm.....
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Tonee you are really hooked up on their products!!
I like a lot my pcm58 from china however ,,,
You need to buy higher grade chips , the pins are not gold plated it is some fake and it will oxide in few years
The heatsinks are smaller
Some of the circuit needs to be redone
The upsampler needs also some work,
That is to get into hifi territory , however the nature of the sound is very good , new dacs impress easy by their extended response , which is a resonance of high magnitude in higher frequency , when you stop for a second and ask yourself how is this sounding , does it has the character of a real sound or it it exacerbated noises, choirs are like chocked chickens, cymbals sound like key trousers ,,, etc, most important does it make people dance, does it gives you satisfaction or it leaves you with the feeling of wanting to improve the sound…
I like a lot my pcm58 from china however ,,,
You need to buy higher grade chips , the pins are not gold plated it is some fake and it will oxide in few years
The heatsinks are smaller
Some of the circuit needs to be redone
The upsampler needs also some work,
That is to get into hifi territory , however the nature of the sound is very good , new dacs impress easy by their extended response , which is a resonance of high magnitude in higher frequency , when you stop for a second and ask yourself how is this sounding , does it has the character of a real sound or it it exacerbated noises, choirs are like chocked chickens, cymbals sound like key trousers ,,, etc, most important does it make people dance, does it gives you satisfaction or it leaves you with the feeling of wanting to improve the sound…
Well, I got two Schitt/Nitsch products, plus four Nuforce, two Topping, one Burson DACs. I got a couple of other Chinese made portable USB DACs for my travel IEMs. I run those via an USB-OTG connector.
( Yes, one of them is an INEXPENSIVE Chinese $30 )...
For surround I got the Sony EP9EX, Emo UMC1, Schiit Syn and Asus Xonar U7
Then I got an M-Audio (stillm but not using it, it's a Firewire 8 ) and RME ADI-2 AD/DAC. So, far my most expensive, by far.
Also have picked up three WiiM Ultras, but I use two strictly as bridges, the other is a 2ch source into the Home Theater.
I've been at this for a while. I have thrown more away that I have now... Remember the Echo Audio 24/96 boards of the 90s?
I truly like what Schiit has been doing lately and their latest models are upgradable.
..
I was playing Jennifer Warnes' Blue Raincoat yesterday. At one point, she sounded like she was right over my shoulder ( sitting at the keyboard, the main office system speakers are aligned to my left, along the wall ). I have the Nitsch in there right now.
( Yes, one of them is an INEXPENSIVE Chinese $30 )...
For surround I got the Sony EP9EX, Emo UMC1, Schiit Syn and Asus Xonar U7
Then I got an M-Audio (stillm but not using it, it's a Firewire 8 ) and RME ADI-2 AD/DAC. So, far my most expensive, by far.
Also have picked up three WiiM Ultras, but I use two strictly as bridges, the other is a 2ch source into the Home Theater.
I've been at this for a while. I have thrown more away that I have now... Remember the Echo Audio 24/96 boards of the 90s?
I truly like what Schiit has been doing lately and their latest models are upgradable.
..
I was playing Jennifer Warnes' Blue Raincoat yesterday. At one point, she sounded like she was right over my shoulder ( sitting at the keyboard, the main office system speakers are aligned to my left, along the wall ). I have the Nitsch in there right now.
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