How dare other reviewers say the exact opposite of what you say . . . maybe they did right something you were doing wrong?Yes how dare us buy amplifiers and listen to them when we have you to tell us what to think ..
I've never heard either a BelCanto or Rotel Class D amp so I can't comment on that . . . but I've used several 2092 based Class D boards driving both woofers and subwoofers (as well as midrange and tweeters).
No problems, work fine, sound great.
This is the first digitally controlled class d amp ever. The equibit technology that T.I. have aquired was developed for this amplifier.
I have talked to Lyngdorf, and heard it at his house fully setup with room correction. I have also heard over several yearsm when I eas working as a salesman in a hifi shop. The reason for the 25 kg is partly in the PSU (torroid), and the cabinet. The amp is heavy bevause a high end at the time simply had to be heavy.
I have heard only good things about the Lyngdorf amplifiers , but have yet to hear one...
Our core group about 5 yrs ago had about 4-5 individuals with class-d and more than a few others who wanted to jump to the technology , today there is not one with class-D amplifiers , all moved back to Class-a or A/B amplifiers. If i had to pick out one issue , i would say it was due to the perception of a lack of refinement , they just sounded less refined compared to the others and led to listener fatique. Admittedly, they did initially sound fast and dynamic, music was presented with a lot of life, but eventually the lack of refinement , top end air and bass extension became more obvious the longer you lived with them.
I will also add the above critism is not unique to class-D , i have heard low bias high negative feedback class a/b amps do the same , hence why the lyngdorf , Rowland or the NCore 1200 might be the break through products , all i have yet to hear ...
Our core group about 5 yrs ago had about 4-5 individuals with class-d and more than a few others who wanted to jump to the technology , today there is not one with class-D amplifiers , all moved back to Class-a or A/B amplifiers. If i had to pick out one issue , i would say it was due to the perception of a lack of refinement , they just sounded less refined compared to the others and led to listener fatique. Admittedly, they did initially sound fast and dynamic, music was presented with a lot of life, but eventually the lack of refinement , top end air and bass extension became more obvious the longer you lived with them.
I will also add the above critism is not unique to class-D , i have heard low bias high negative feedback class a/b amps do the same , hence why the lyngdorf , Rowland or the NCore 1200 might be the break through products , all i have yet to hear ...
To the Topic:
Yes, Class D Sounds as good as any other Amplifier, IF designed poperly. I bought a cheap High End low power Amp from China and it sounds absolutely perfect. 15 bucks for 2x10W. I cannt hear any difference to a regular Class AB Amplifier in the HiFi section. (I use a Stereo System with claimed 20W at 6-16 Ohms) I "bridged" it down to 2x50W at around 2 Ohms. The Power supply is designed for 65W actually, still the stereo system laughes about a 2 Ohms load (which is 3 times smaller than the Amplifier likes). Still no distortions that are audible. And yet I cannot measure them either with an oscilloscope. That is well designed.
So for a Class D amp I can say, it can sound just as good as top range Amplifiers. And anything better than that is inaudible anyway.
Just to say so: If the Class D Amp has a low output filter low pass frequency, a phase shift in the higher frequencies will occour. Yet I never did hear that.
It gets even worse with wrong impedance matching. A Class D amp perfeclty tuned to 8 Ohms can have large troubles at 2 Ohms, even, if the Transistors in it could handle the current. The higher frequencies get compressed.
For a Subwoofer Amplifier of course this does not matter.
One thing: There are FM Class D Amplifier - they are not good at all, since they CAN cause cheap sound. Sometimes you can actually hear the FM. This is never wanted. Any good Class D Amp does NOT use FM and also is not digital!
You do not believe me?
Is it better, to process an Analog signal directly, or convert it to digital and from digital back to analog? The problem is, that an Amplifier should have feedback, but how do you feed back something analog into something, that works digital? This is inaudible, of course, but it can be measured! So for anyone who is audiophile, a digital amp is not good. Just as soundcards: Any Soundcard working below 96kHz cannot reconstruct sound completely. A 48kHz soundcard can just reproduce the two states on and off of a 24kHz signal - which is not far from 20kHz. I simulated this. The Sound wave looks depressing!
Any yet all you hear out there is 48kHz MP3! So you cannot actually hear that mistakes in audio! That is, why you don't need a tube amp. Also, a tube amo also does distort.... Everything distorts. If you like it or not. A good set up Class AB amp is capable of almost perfect sound amplification. At first, the biasing of the output transistors mus be set up correctly. At secound, Feedback MUST be used. Since there is almost NO phase shift at all this can reproduce sound very, very, very good. Every error at the output gets fed into the input and this gets corrected. Simple, hugh?
Yes, Class D Sounds as good as any other Amplifier, IF designed poperly. I bought a cheap High End low power Amp from China and it sounds absolutely perfect. 15 bucks for 2x10W. I cannt hear any difference to a regular Class AB Amplifier in the HiFi section. (I use a Stereo System with claimed 20W at 6-16 Ohms) I "bridged" it down to 2x50W at around 2 Ohms. The Power supply is designed for 65W actually, still the stereo system laughes about a 2 Ohms load (which is 3 times smaller than the Amplifier likes). Still no distortions that are audible. And yet I cannot measure them either with an oscilloscope. That is well designed.
So for a Class D amp I can say, it can sound just as good as top range Amplifiers. And anything better than that is inaudible anyway.
Just to say so: If the Class D Amp has a low output filter low pass frequency, a phase shift in the higher frequencies will occour. Yet I never did hear that.
It gets even worse with wrong impedance matching. A Class D amp perfeclty tuned to 8 Ohms can have large troubles at 2 Ohms, even, if the Transistors in it could handle the current. The higher frequencies get compressed.
For a Subwoofer Amplifier of course this does not matter.
One thing: There are FM Class D Amplifier - they are not good at all, since they CAN cause cheap sound. Sometimes you can actually hear the FM. This is never wanted. Any good Class D Amp does NOT use FM and also is not digital!
You do not believe me?
Is it better, to process an Analog signal directly, or convert it to digital and from digital back to analog? The problem is, that an Amplifier should have feedback, but how do you feed back something analog into something, that works digital? This is inaudible, of course, but it can be measured! So for anyone who is audiophile, a digital amp is not good. Just as soundcards: Any Soundcard working below 96kHz cannot reconstruct sound completely. A 48kHz soundcard can just reproduce the two states on and off of a 24kHz signal - which is not far from 20kHz. I simulated this. The Sound wave looks depressing!
Any yet all you hear out there is 48kHz MP3! So you cannot actually hear that mistakes in audio! That is, why you don't need a tube amp. Also, a tube amo also does distort.... Everything distorts. If you like it or not. A good set up Class AB amp is capable of almost perfect sound amplification. At first, the biasing of the output transistors mus be set up correctly. At secound, Feedback MUST be used. Since there is almost NO phase shift at all this can reproduce sound very, very, very good. Every error at the output gets fed into the input and this gets corrected. Simple, hugh?
I'm not sure I understand?
I have digital out -> digital in -> I2S -> PWM -> output filter -> Speakers. I have no AD/DA conversion from source to output filter
Since the IRS2092 was introduced in late 2007 and the first developer boards weren't available until 2008 the chance that any of your "core group" had ever heard them is just about zero. Which makes the value of their opinions about the same . . .
Hi a.wayne!
I totally agree with you. I had nearly a dozen of several type Class-D amps in last few years, but their sounds are more or less like you described. Every class-D have their own character, e.g. they reveal the sound of the violin typically as if it were plastic-coated varnish instead. One of my friend had this to say: "This is a false presence"
Best Regards
egra
I dont understand, how your Class D amps can sound different. That means, that they are absolutely crap. The Waveform should be AMPLIFIED, not shaped or as I would correctly say it: distortion.
A good Class D amp can not sound any different to a good Class AB or Clas A amp. If it would sound different, it means, that the signal gets distortions.
A good Class D amp can not sound any different to a good Class AB or Clas A amp. If it would sound different, it means, that the signal gets distortions.
Please read again. It was only one amplifier, all the others do not sound different from any other amp (I have had og heard more than 10 different class D amps). I agree - if an amplifier sound very different that normal, then it's broken. There can be small differences between amps. I have heard +100 amps, and they all sound different to some degree. Very very few amps sound very different from the average amplifier.
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Ahh , Math and reading comprehension issues huh? you should subtract 5 from 2014, you can use the internet for the answer if need be .
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Hi Egra ,
Yep pretty much how we called it also, In speculation
I would guess most class-d users listen to electronic music , their experience will be different . Are you saying all amps sound the same ...?
They definitely do not. But they should. Because Amplifier is the Term for a Circuit, that controls the gain. either current, voltage or current-and-voltage. It is meant to not change the shape of the signal, only the amplitude.
My opinion is not subject to an amplifier in particular.
Amplifier for bass or sub, must equal the same execution speed compared to the full-range use.
The "character" of an amplifier is driven by a number of factors that add up.
There is only one measure (taken from the old measures) that allows us to see the difference between an amp and another. is FFT. (but is not granted the simple interpretation of a fft, as many people think)
I wonder ... who cares today whether an amplifier changes the harmonic component?
Two amplifiers can have thd twin but sound different. well, see fft, this is not twin..
regards
Amplifier for bass or sub, must equal the same execution speed compared to the full-range use.
The "character" of an amplifier is driven by a number of factors that add up.
There is only one measure (taken from the old measures) that allows us to see the difference between an amp and another. is FFT. (but is not granted the simple interpretation of a fft, as many people think)
I wonder ... who cares today whether an amplifier changes the harmonic component?
Two amplifiers can have thd twin but sound different. well, see fft, this is not twin..
regards
My opinion is not subject to an amplifier in particular.
Amplifier for bass or sub, must equal the same execution speed compared to the full-range use.
The "character" of an amplifier is driven by a number of factors that add up.
There is only one measure (taken from the old measures) that allows us to see the difference between an amp and another. is FFT. (but is not granted the simple interpretation of a fft, as many people think)
I wonder ... who cares today whether an amplifier changes the harmonic component?
Two amplifiers can have thd twin but sound different. well, see fft, this is not twin..
regards
Because usually THD is given as a SINGLE variable. This cannot give enought info. You need a full Bandwidth table.
Also, there is a phase shift different from Amplifier to amplifier and also only happening in the higher frequencies. Well, the thing is, that it has been tested, if anyone could hear the phase shift an of course, no one did hear that.
There is only one thing more:THD does not give information about the real shape of a signal. It might be, that the Signal has no detail, if the amp is a real Digital Class D amp. That happens quite often. This CAN be audible but in reallife comparision almost nobody hears it.
If I play you 3 Amps and let you close your eyes and play them again in a different order, you will not hear the difference, if the amp is worth any money.
Most of all times, that is just an audiophile opinion. But I have to say, I once had a Class D amp with lack of high frequency tones. But that was my fault due to wrong output filtering.
How many people know about the report on the phase shift, and what to change listening? the result is not "poor or good," right thing changes. in turn, the result is linked to your speakers. phase on the amplifieris transformed into "level" at certain frequencies but not at the frequency where we have the delay. in a few words changes the "stage", due to the sum or subtraction that will suffer certain frequencies in the envelope total. This happens the entire spectrum, including bass then.
Unfortunately, "Audiofile" does not necessarily mean "Vs. Absolute fidelity." therefore, the sound may be pleasant or not.
Unfortunately, "Audiofile" does not necessarily mean "Vs. Absolute fidelity." therefore, the sound may be pleasant or not.
That is not the problem. Many people think, that Class D sounds different. The only way, to hear the phase shift would be the following way:
Left and Right speaker - Left one with Class D, right one an amp without phase shift. The phase shift will change the sound because of deleting sound waves.
Pure Class D will not sound different at all. The problem is, that most Class D Amps are just not optimized as well as they could be. That is, what makes some Class D amps realy sound diferent - even if not much at all. If they where all as optimized as they could be, there would be no difference at all, because Class D is perfect for audio. Does anyone hear the difference between a soundcard with 48kHz sampling rate and 96kHz? NO! There are many reasons. And any Soundcard works just like a Class D amp (not exactly, but very, very close.) And any good Class D amp works at much higher frequencies over 150kHz. (150kHz is enought to sample up to 20kHz PERFECTLY). The reason of different sounds comes back to effects like Supply pumping combined with bad feedback and low cost output filters. That will definitely change the sound. Still almost any Class D amp works better than a soundcard for under 200 bucks.
Phase does not convert to amplitude. The amplitude will stay exactly the same. It just might happen, that a bad filter can increase the Amplitude far over the supply voltage which means an impedance change and much louder volumes. I had this effect with a bad designed filter and to low sampling rate combined, if I played 20kHz. That is a problem caused by the resonant frequency of the filter. No commercial amplifier SHOULD have that sort of an issue. Should
Maybe 0.1% of the amps will have that problem but that is very unlikely to happen.
Unfortunately, "Audiofile" does not necessarily mean "Vs. Absolute fidelity." therefore, the sound may be pleasant or not.
Audiophile means exactly, that somebody only loves his taste of sound quality. Maybe someone who is audiophile would say, that his stereo system sounds the best, but that is just his taste. Audiophile does mean, absolute fidelity based on the taste of the subject.
Just like me: I love bass at very high volumes and also want crispy rised high pitches, because that realy gives music a punch and that is what I want. Some others are audiophile to more like a flat frequency response. Just to say: I do not use equalizers to boost anything up. I still use equalizers only to make the frequency response as flat as I can make it on my own hearing. If I than want more bass, I will buy a bigger subwoofer. The so called "Badewanne" (bathtub shaped equalizers) is the biggest mistake beginners do. But they have to, since for example my 20 bucks headset does not play high frequency that loud. Smoothly increasing the amplitude of high frequency makes this cheap but very robust headsets sound as any good audio setup. Thats quite good for just 20 bucks. <3
This all depends on opinion. But if I may come back to the topic:
No, Class D amplifiers are not just good for subwoofer speakers, as many say.
And there low weight and low power dissipation makes them a prefered solution in many cases like monitors on a concert, because there is limited room and also enought heat produced by the lights.
Hi,
I agree that the class D, can not be just for bass.
For my other explanations, as phase shift, change amplitude or attenuated in the audio spectrum, this is as final result (when you listen to the speakers). This is a physical principle, independent stereo, or audio.
Then, if you have two ch con 60° at 20Khz, you not hear as defect but you have changed the response in air (in ambient).
I agree that the class D, can not be just for bass.
For my other explanations, as phase shift, change amplitude or attenuated in the audio spectrum, this is as final result (when you listen to the speakers). This is a physical principle, independent stereo, or audio.
Then, if you have two ch con 60° at 20Khz, you not hear as defect but you have changed the response in air (in ambient).
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