Dave,
I was trying to be gentle in my description.
With DC one would expect to see the entire diaphragm move out (or in) as a unit. Because the primary motive force is still in the areas where the alignment of the electrical conductor(s) and the magnetic field is best/proper those areas will "go". The spans between these areas, if they had no magnetic drive at all on them would still want to move as well. And since the diaphragm is under tension, then the entire diaphragm would appear to have moved as a unit.
However, continuing the assumption for discussion purposes, under AC drive, the spans with no magnetic drive and/or no electrical turns to be driven will be effectively a mass attached to a spring. They will have a resonant behavior. So, at some frequencies they will be in phase, and at others out of phase, and between any two phase and anti-phase points, amplitudes and phases between 0 and -180 degrees.
My observation is that either due to faulty engineering & design or faulty assembly, that this is more or less what is going on with the Apogee speakers, and in part accounts for the 'particular nature' of their sound.
I think it does matter for users and rebuilders.
What Graz does or doesn't do, is his choice, of course. If he wants my views, he'd have to ask me, probably privately. But I think it's pretty clear what I think anyhow.
Now, he can go and be rich and famous? 😀
_-_-
I was trying to be gentle in my description.
With DC one would expect to see the entire diaphragm move out (or in) as a unit. Because the primary motive force is still in the areas where the alignment of the electrical conductor(s) and the magnetic field is best/proper those areas will "go". The spans between these areas, if they had no magnetic drive at all on them would still want to move as well. And since the diaphragm is under tension, then the entire diaphragm would appear to have moved as a unit.
However, continuing the assumption for discussion purposes, under AC drive, the spans with no magnetic drive and/or no electrical turns to be driven will be effectively a mass attached to a spring. They will have a resonant behavior. So, at some frequencies they will be in phase, and at others out of phase, and between any two phase and anti-phase points, amplitudes and phases between 0 and -180 degrees.
My observation is that either due to faulty engineering & design or faulty assembly, that this is more or less what is going on with the Apogee speakers, and in part accounts for the 'particular nature' of their sound.
I think it does matter for users and rebuilders.
What Graz does or doesn't do, is his choice, of course. If he wants my views, he'd have to ask me, probably privately. But I think it's pretty clear what I think anyhow.
Now, he can go and be rich and famous? 😀
_-_-
bear,
Your description makes sense and explains your point-of-view. Thanks for elaborating on your initial declaration.
This seems an inherent "issue" or design trade-off the Apogee folks most likely knew about then. Maybe they viewed it as a "feature" that imbued the speaker with some of its second-order distortion and provided part of the characteristic sound? 🙂
Cheers,
Dave.
Your description makes sense and explains your point-of-view. Thanks for elaborating on your initial declaration.
This seems an inherent "issue" or design trade-off the Apogee folks most likely knew about then. Maybe they viewed it as a "feature" that imbued the speaker with some of its second-order distortion and provided part of the characteristic sound? 🙂
Cheers,
Dave.
Rich and famous? Come on!!! 😱
If you saw how much my savings have subsidised ribbons the last 8 years you would have a raucous laugh!!!! As for fame - if I want that I would streak at a public event, instant assured fame without cost. No thanks😀
Now - more serious business - questions raised. All imho, fwiw.
Phase. Magnets should align to the panel - and often do not in original Apogee's. Panels are often inaccurate, and magnet arrays generally have inaccuracies in too. Take a look at the meridians on the panel - they often look tired as indeed a single conductor is often in conflict with itself at the edge on original speakers. This produces phase errors and distortions.
Over the 15 years I have been working on them, I have found many failure modes and problems, and have shared details and discussed repairs at length with my friendly Installers to make certain speakers we refurbish are better than when they were new by a fair margin. Personally I have invested much time and money to make custom unique CNC machinery to ensure the ribbon parts I make exceed every tolerance require, consistently.
Magnets. Sometimes these are out a bit - some alignment ruler/protractors I designed help Installers assess existing speaker arrays, and work out if they conform. If not - they show is slight, or complete reworking of the array is required. Then the work is done ahead of a panel replacement.
Foam, in contact with the panel. I have this made for me, to my requirements within tight tolerances. It is supplied as an inclusion with my ribbons.
Foil. This is a certificated custom alloy build for me by a precision mill to blueprint designs and tightest tolerances available worldwide.
Kapton. Again, a certificated treated product, made to my specifications with additional processes to allow for a single piece per bass or MRTW panel. expensive in this form. This exceeds original tolerances by a considerable margin.
Adhesive for the kapton. Made for me as a custom order by a chemical specialist. Different builds for MR and Bass.
Installers. These people have been trained by me, some here in Australia and enjoy full support. We operate like a family most of the time! They like their work, and generally do their trade for a lower hourly rate than an average car mechanic. Consider their time invested, space allocated, risk (installing panels has risks), custom equipment investment. These people keep Apogee speakers working, and exceed the quality of every original speaker they work on. That was their mission statement and they are hitting the target for their clients.
Car anaolgies. Fair - at the time Apogee released the Full Range and Scintilla speakers true high end was redefined. There were a handful of brand names out there occupying the upper level. You could buy a car for their mid/low panel speaker price, and a luxury European supercar for the cost of their flagship. Ferrari/Lamborghini/Rolls Royce/Bentley? All could apply.
Home installation of bass. I tried working with this dreadful idea for nearly 7 years. Of the 31 clients who attempted this single figures achieved a workable/close result by accounts. People who failed (obviously) were upset - these were ALL intelligent people! I spent a lot of time working with these people - all used to getting excellence within their field! The fact is it is difficult to get a pair of panels, strip down a pair of Apogee's and reliably get the pair installed, perfect first time. Near impossible. With a dedicated workshop, custom machinery and experience I can still get a panel throw me - the Installers do too! The clients never know - we just absorb the loss and rework. If you are tight for money gambling on success in such a process is frankly stupid. If you are tight for money then you have to spend wisely. As also identified - true knowledge/experience of a proper working Apogee is not always accessible! Some who did home installations believed they had gotten things right until compared to a professional installation. Then comes the dismay. Others who have tried other "alternatives" also. None of this is good for the name or continuation of the brand I have the job of looking after - I take my work seriously...
Only two kinds of people want to do "home bass repair" - the naive, or people fantasising on being taught how to commercialise panel speaker manufacture.
Now.
New speakers. Accuracy is imperative for advancements to be made over the original classic speakers. All of my new speakers feature laser aligned arrays, precision foils, and soon will benefit from a new unique tuning facility I am near completing building. Looks, and sounds promising, and a new speaker out soon actually...
Profit. In theory I should be making some, though ribbon repairs have been loss-making for a while. Some here, members from the Apogee forum believe I should be financially exterminated. Interesting that was noted in this thread...
Money. Money is worth a lot less than what it was 7/14/28 years ago. If one believes the indices taught (that don't take the price of a house into consideration that most draw against) inflation is considerable. If taking a broader consideration including the house, money is worth a fraction of it's 1980's value when Apogee's were released. So comparisons of costs based on crooked inflation values over 20-30 years has little bearing on reality. If you have a problem with this - don't email me - email those who run the money system. Good luck😱
Graz out.
If you saw how much my savings have subsidised ribbons the last 8 years you would have a raucous laugh!!!! As for fame - if I want that I would streak at a public event, instant assured fame without cost. No thanks😀
Now - more serious business - questions raised. All imho, fwiw.
Phase. Magnets should align to the panel - and often do not in original Apogee's. Panels are often inaccurate, and magnet arrays generally have inaccuracies in too. Take a look at the meridians on the panel - they often look tired as indeed a single conductor is often in conflict with itself at the edge on original speakers. This produces phase errors and distortions.
Over the 15 years I have been working on them, I have found many failure modes and problems, and have shared details and discussed repairs at length with my friendly Installers to make certain speakers we refurbish are better than when they were new by a fair margin. Personally I have invested much time and money to make custom unique CNC machinery to ensure the ribbon parts I make exceed every tolerance require, consistently.
Magnets. Sometimes these are out a bit - some alignment ruler/protractors I designed help Installers assess existing speaker arrays, and work out if they conform. If not - they show is slight, or complete reworking of the array is required. Then the work is done ahead of a panel replacement.
Foam, in contact with the panel. I have this made for me, to my requirements within tight tolerances. It is supplied as an inclusion with my ribbons.
Foil. This is a certificated custom alloy build for me by a precision mill to blueprint designs and tightest tolerances available worldwide.
Kapton. Again, a certificated treated product, made to my specifications with additional processes to allow for a single piece per bass or MRTW panel. expensive in this form. This exceeds original tolerances by a considerable margin.
Adhesive for the kapton. Made for me as a custom order by a chemical specialist. Different builds for MR and Bass.
Installers. These people have been trained by me, some here in Australia and enjoy full support. We operate like a family most of the time! They like their work, and generally do their trade for a lower hourly rate than an average car mechanic. Consider their time invested, space allocated, risk (installing panels has risks), custom equipment investment. These people keep Apogee speakers working, and exceed the quality of every original speaker they work on. That was their mission statement and they are hitting the target for their clients.
Car anaolgies. Fair - at the time Apogee released the Full Range and Scintilla speakers true high end was redefined. There were a handful of brand names out there occupying the upper level. You could buy a car for their mid/low panel speaker price, and a luxury European supercar for the cost of their flagship. Ferrari/Lamborghini/Rolls Royce/Bentley? All could apply.
Home installation of bass. I tried working with this dreadful idea for nearly 7 years. Of the 31 clients who attempted this single figures achieved a workable/close result by accounts. People who failed (obviously) were upset - these were ALL intelligent people! I spent a lot of time working with these people - all used to getting excellence within their field! The fact is it is difficult to get a pair of panels, strip down a pair of Apogee's and reliably get the pair installed, perfect first time. Near impossible. With a dedicated workshop, custom machinery and experience I can still get a panel throw me - the Installers do too! The clients never know - we just absorb the loss and rework. If you are tight for money gambling on success in such a process is frankly stupid. If you are tight for money then you have to spend wisely. As also identified - true knowledge/experience of a proper working Apogee is not always accessible! Some who did home installations believed they had gotten things right until compared to a professional installation. Then comes the dismay. Others who have tried other "alternatives" also. None of this is good for the name or continuation of the brand I have the job of looking after - I take my work seriously...
Only two kinds of people want to do "home bass repair" - the naive, or people fantasising on being taught how to commercialise panel speaker manufacture.
Now.
New speakers. Accuracy is imperative for advancements to be made over the original classic speakers. All of my new speakers feature laser aligned arrays, precision foils, and soon will benefit from a new unique tuning facility I am near completing building. Looks, and sounds promising, and a new speaker out soon actually...
Profit. In theory I should be making some, though ribbon repairs have been loss-making for a while. Some here, members from the Apogee forum believe I should be financially exterminated. Interesting that was noted in this thread...
Money. Money is worth a lot less than what it was 7/14/28 years ago. If one believes the indices taught (that don't take the price of a house into consideration that most draw against) inflation is considerable. If taking a broader consideration including the house, money is worth a fraction of it's 1980's value when Apogee's were released. So comparisons of costs based on crooked inflation values over 20-30 years has little bearing on reality. If you have a problem with this - don't email me - email those who run the money system. Good luck😱
Graz out.
Graz................Thanks For your time an work on one of the best speakers I have ever heard are owend.................keep up the good work.
Some here know better than anyone....about every thing...but this is the way it been an well be..........they add nothing to the mix...
They may have a better insite on one thing are the other.....But how they pass this info on to other....well there skills are laking to say the least!
No one wont to be talket down to...or put down for not knowing...
Some here know better than anyone....about every thing...but this is the way it been an well be..........they add nothing to the mix...
They may have a better insite on one thing are the other.....But how they pass this info on to other....well there skills are laking to say the least!
No one wont to be talket down to...or put down for not knowing...
Silly rhetoric.
And, if you can't make a few bucks providing the repair service, it begs the question why you're doing it.
Altruism? That is a hopeless business model.
Get real Graz. Good inputs regarding the technical issues, but the paranoia and narcissism doesn't become you.....and never has.
Cheers,
Dave.
The history is simple.
Before business makes profit, there is usually an investment and the risk of before unseen problems or losses.
So tweeters are more or less problemless to replace by DIY-People, woofers are not.
As a maker i would not discuss such things with DIY-Customers, just fix the problems and get my bill paid.
Before business makes profit, there is usually an investment and the risk of before unseen problems or losses.
So tweeters are more or less problemless to replace by DIY-People, woofers are not.
As a maker i would not discuss such things with DIY-Customers, just fix the problems and get my bill paid.
Ah ok. I was clearly just misreading some strange undertones in some of the replies.
To be completely clear as someone who has never heard any of the bass ribboned Apogees but loves his hybrids I am just a very satisfied customer of Graz.
To be completely clear as someone who has never heard any of the bass ribboned Apogees but loves his hybrids I am just a very satisfied customer of Graz.
I say...Who can argue with Success.........Graz is the ONLy one making ...saleing
Apogee bass ribbons driver............if it needs to be....that's one hell of a business model....
look at these babys..............sold new for 10k .....you can put new Graz bass driver.....magnets alinement....less that 8k.....kill any speaker... under 50k...how can this be a bad thing..............or you can go with the ML Neolith ....for 80k...
https://app.audiogon.com/listings/p...speakers-2015-05-11-speakers-98502-olympia-wa
Apogee bass ribbons driver............if it needs to be....that's one hell of a business model....
look at these babys..............sold new for 10k .....you can put new Graz bass driver.....magnets alinement....less that 8k.....kill any speaker... under 50k...how can this be a bad thing..............or you can go with the ML Neolith ....for 80k...
https://app.audiogon.com/listings/p...speakers-2015-05-11-speakers-98502-olympia-wa
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Graz just said "ribbon repairs have been loss-making for a while." Clearly there's an issue.......unless you believe in the concept of loss-leaders. I don't.
I would like to see Graz make some money and provide his services to a much broader swath of Apogee customers. I've been clear/consistent on that for years now. How difficult a concept is that to understand? There are plenty of Apogee's out there that need (or will need) repair.
The simple fact is.....Graz is a terrific fabricator guy, but a poor business man. Nothing unusual about that. Many folks fall into that category.
Congratulations tyu. You actually spelled Graz' name correctly a couple of times.
Cheers,
Dave.
I would like to see Graz make some money and provide his services to a much broader swath of Apogee customers. I've been clear/consistent on that for years now. How difficult a concept is that to understand? There are plenty of Apogee's out there that need (or will need) repair.
The simple fact is.....Graz is a terrific fabricator guy, but a poor business man. Nothing unusual about that. Many folks fall into that category.
Congratulations tyu. You actually spelled Graz' name correctly a couple of times.
Cheers,
Dave.
This is getting a bit ugly - I see it all the time at AA, but just not here on DIYAudio....
While I may share some of the views that Davey may have regarding Apogees, I don't think Graz and Tyu deserve his tone and attitude.
If you can't say anything nice.....
While I may share some of the views that Davey may have regarding Apogees, I don't think Graz and Tyu deserve his tone and attitude.
If you can't say anything nice.....
John....he tell others... that he well never wast his time.... nore should anyone try too read my post......... ...
but he has to put someone down...
it ezey to kick me....I gess it makes him feel good.....it lonely at the top
but he has to put someone down...
it ezey to kick me....I gess it makes him feel good.....it lonely at the top
I think I'm going back to school to relearn the english language and spell correctly, so everyone one can understand what I'm talking about.
I apologize for the tone and attitude, but it stems from a long history of discussions regarding Apogee's on the other forums. I was very disappointed in the direction those forums turned and the deletion of some informational threads to help DIY-interested Apogee users. The deletion of the excellent silicone repair thread was the last straw for me. That was unacceptable.
Regardless, Graz' business model is now commercially orientated and not DIY. Nothing wrong with that, but this is DIY forum and Damic's original thread query is an excellent DIY-inspired direction that I applaud discussion of.
Cheers,
Dave.
Regardless, Graz' business model is now commercially orientated and not DIY. Nothing wrong with that, but this is DIY forum and Damic's original thread query is an excellent DIY-inspired direction that I applaud discussion of.
Cheers,
Dave.
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There is some history here. In the 5-6 years of supplying bass for what turned out to be disastrous home installations, I ended up covering the costs of new parts to people often and spend hours on international calls (dearer then) attempting to train people to do something once. It was literally like being in a perpetual new-staff training role! And paying to do it. Once I realised that the brand was nailed to me and heard some home installation results it became clear that this was never going to work. I gave 4-6 months notice that I would be ceasing home installations, and had already established several professional Installers. People had good warning on the changeover, including Davey. A huge opportunity window where he chose not to avail himself of bass parts to have a go! I think he actually made a wise CHOICE, his choice not to. Let's not forget bass parts were available for many years below costs, and externalising the training onto me at no charge also. I gave it a good go for people, but when something perpetually fails using one method, and had a massively higher client satisfaction and brand support using the other method - it became clear where Apogee's best support future was. I have no regrets, the brand lives sounding better than ever, the actual clients are happy.
History. (his - story!) In the original forum there were a few people for which I could never do right. I thought of them similar to the hecklers on the Muppet show, always active, never ejected. Part of the furniture. And all these years on some are still active, though most have moved on or become friends 😉
Davey. As for Davey - and a few like him, respectfully I believe there will be no satisfaction for them. I have sent him clients for his electronics business, and generally been cordial in our communications. Davey has contacted his closest Installer, and been given a fair quote for the work require on his Duetta's that he declined. I guess if you have a thing about a supplier you just don't want to pay for his goods. As they say in Australia - no worries, perhaps that will change. But a word or friendly advice - if Apogee makes you feel like arguing with people you should distance yourself from it, it's not healthy fighting! And if you like to get angry - there are many more important things to get angry about on planet earth in 2015, take up a worthy cause😀
Subsidised ribbon repairs - why? As many would agree not providing retro support for a brand seems wrong when selling the odd new speaker as I do. Also - I hate waste, it's nice to keep the old ones singing - they still are very competitive in the high end when working properly, good for a 30 year old speaker. Note - another high end electrostatic recently tried cutting support and incurred the wrath of it's legacy clients.
Threads. The original forum closed, not my doing. The new forum lost almost two thirds it's threads a few months in and was at that time not backed up. I don't administrate that forum, and rarely participate except to give advice when I can.
Silicon. Pouring this into the fragments of disintegrated/disintegrating foam along the accessible edge of a bass ribbon results in a selective filter for resonance at best. This is a modification, not a repair. Also - residual uncured silicon oil that can migrate into the faces of the clamps (unseen) make for a reconstruction nightmare. The silicone assembly adhesive does not properly bond to areas where uncured silicon oil is, and when a properly restored panel is tensioned considerable lateral forces on the ribbon can pull a panel out if not properly secured.
Lastly - a sincere request. Lets not spend our lives doing e-arguments, if we were face up I am certain we would all be inclined to better behaviour, I believe we are all better than that...
Take care - Graz
History. (his - story!) In the original forum there were a few people for which I could never do right. I thought of them similar to the hecklers on the Muppet show, always active, never ejected. Part of the furniture. And all these years on some are still active, though most have moved on or become friends 😉
Davey. As for Davey - and a few like him, respectfully I believe there will be no satisfaction for them. I have sent him clients for his electronics business, and generally been cordial in our communications. Davey has contacted his closest Installer, and been given a fair quote for the work require on his Duetta's that he declined. I guess if you have a thing about a supplier you just don't want to pay for his goods. As they say in Australia - no worries, perhaps that will change. But a word or friendly advice - if Apogee makes you feel like arguing with people you should distance yourself from it, it's not healthy fighting! And if you like to get angry - there are many more important things to get angry about on planet earth in 2015, take up a worthy cause😀
Subsidised ribbon repairs - why? As many would agree not providing retro support for a brand seems wrong when selling the odd new speaker as I do. Also - I hate waste, it's nice to keep the old ones singing - they still are very competitive in the high end when working properly, good for a 30 year old speaker. Note - another high end electrostatic recently tried cutting support and incurred the wrath of it's legacy clients.
Threads. The original forum closed, not my doing. The new forum lost almost two thirds it's threads a few months in and was at that time not backed up. I don't administrate that forum, and rarely participate except to give advice when I can.
Silicon. Pouring this into the fragments of disintegrated/disintegrating foam along the accessible edge of a bass ribbon results in a selective filter for resonance at best. This is a modification, not a repair. Also - residual uncured silicon oil that can migrate into the faces of the clamps (unseen) make for a reconstruction nightmare. The silicone assembly adhesive does not properly bond to areas where uncured silicon oil is, and when a properly restored panel is tensioned considerable lateral forces on the ribbon can pull a panel out if not properly secured.
Lastly - a sincere request. Lets not spend our lives doing e-arguments, if we were face up I am certain we would all be inclined to better behaviour, I believe we are all better than that...
Take care - Graz
Total nonsense.
I never contacted an installer inquiring about Apogee repair work. 'Absolutely no interest in paying someone else to do this sort of repair work. It's moot at this point anyways since I successfully REPAIRed one of my Apogee's with the silicone REPAIR. The other one remains to be done, but I've had higher priority projects to work on. (It will get done one day.)
I did chat with Rich Murray on the phone one time, but it was regarding an electronic crossover issue and nothing to do with speakers.
If any electronics work was referred by you, the person never mentioned it. 🙂 In fact, most of the inquiries I've had in this direction were from those who were dissatisfied with the support/content on the previous forums and so contacted me offline. I repaired at least two dozen Apogee DAX crossovers and also a couple of the passive and simpler active ones as well. Most of those units were from folks who don't participate on forums at all and just lurked and picked up my name. (These are the sort who are potential customers for you too.)
Keep your facts straight and keep your condescension to yourself and there will no need for e-arguments.
Dave.
Leo Spiegel developed and invented the trapezoid woofer, not me, so what do i know? 😉
What i can say, the bigger models have in the lower part one more row of magnets on the side.
So i assume, it was a question of cost and effort. The magnets are some standard size, going more outside demand magnets of different size and require new alignment tools.
Furthermore i think, it makes no sense going with magnets complete to the side bars, to much force there maybe could overstress the foil and damping system.
IMHO the structural integrity and the right amount of damping of the whole thingie is more important for the acoustic result, also proper alignment and tuning.
I just found this thread..my siliconized Stages are playing right now, beautifully without any buzz, sounding much better and powerful than any Magneplanars I have owned.
There are many people out there using the silicone method with good success. Just very important to make the right mixture and be careful. With the Stage it's crucial since not even the manufacturer provides a fix.
Can you elaborate why the magnets would not be adjusted anymore?! Sounds to me like pure marketing propaganda..
Don't get me wrong, I think the support from Graz and service that installers provide is great, everyone just does not have the financial possibilities or motivation to go that path-at least at a particular time, maybe later?
You should never underestimate the value of potential customers and knowledge of DIYers..
Can someone Say whats the Cost $$ .....of cking the magnets on a pr of Duettas....when the Graz bass driver are installed?
one thing I can say about the Stages....I added small peaces of Blu-Tack to see if it would kill any ringing.....on the back of the bass magnet bar....less than a dime sizes...on ea speakers....were ever I put on the bar ...made the sound diff.....an this gave lower bass...for sure Wow... but in the end pull all the tack off...there was better blend with the bass an MT.....
So the silicone fix.... has to change the sound....lucky I have been abel to get any buzz out of my Stages....it was wire are the crossover parts...
But do what you can with Stages or there dead ducks....no fix sold...I saw one guy added duck tape to the foil....he said it worket!
I have rewired one of a pr of the MG 3a bass panels by hand.....an did not get all the wire in the magnets gap....it worket....but the one I did not sound as good as the other?....I just pulled the ribbons...pichet the bass mid drivers...
one thing I can say about the Stages....I added small peaces of Blu-Tack to see if it would kill any ringing.....on the back of the bass magnet bar....less than a dime sizes...on ea speakers....were ever I put on the bar ...made the sound diff.....an this gave lower bass...for sure Wow... but in the end pull all the tack off...there was better blend with the bass an MT.....
So the silicone fix.... has to change the sound....lucky I have been abel to get any buzz out of my Stages....it was wire are the crossover parts...
But do what you can with Stages or there dead ducks....no fix sold...I saw one guy added duck tape to the foil....he said it worket!
I have rewired one of a pr of the MG 3a bass panels by hand.....an did not get all the wire in the magnets gap....it worket....but the one I did not sound as good as the other?....I just pulled the ribbons...pichet the bass mid drivers...
Oh dear, I seem to have stirred up a slight hornets nest here. Sorry about that but thank you all for getting those of us who were not there up to speed. The fact that there is not currently a stage replacement woofer does make DIY options seem a good thing even if I personally would view that as a mod rather than repair. Shame as the stage is probably the most UK friendly model full ribbon/planar model they made.
I have to say I am happy that there is still so much love for apogees after all these years, even if emotions can still run high.
I have to say I am happy that there is still so much love for apogees after all these years, even if emotions can still run high.
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