Patents for Magnepan and Apogee are to old for protection.
Simply the effort to make Stage woofers is to big to earn money with low sales figures.
Especially since they are double sided and had wave cut.
Push pull design means double money in building and weight.
It has be done by another company, no success.
Neos works wonder when application done well, but also here the costs are 10 times than standard ceramic magnets, the construction must be much stiffer to take up the forces and how to protect the woofers due the strong attraction of magnetic air pollution and similar?
Temperature is no issue here with Neos.
Simply the effort to make Stage woofers is to big to earn money with low sales figures.
Especially since they are double sided and had wave cut.
Push pull design means double money in building and weight.
It has be done by another company, no success.
Neos works wonder when application done well, but also here the costs are 10 times than standard ceramic magnets, the construction must be much stiffer to take up the forces and how to protect the woofers due the strong attraction of magnetic air pollution and similar?
Temperature is no issue here with Neos.
To be fair no company has had long term success with Planar bass. Maggie has come back from the dead how many times now?
Your arguments are valid, but has anyone looked at it from a non-boutique standpoint and using something other than hand welded pig iron and MDF? Manufacturing has moved forwards a lot in 20 years.
Your arguments are valid, but has anyone looked at it from a non-boutique standpoint and using something other than hand welded pig iron and MDF? Manufacturing has moved forwards a lot in 20 years.
Yes, Graz did and does.
He presented me a speaker ( Scintilla Style) , made on Corianframe with stainless steel to get it solid, Neodymmagnet ( a lot of them), the ribbon clampers made out of modern material, all CNC work . Speakers were EXTREME heavy, veeeeeeeeery high efficiency. It has a nice price tag.
He will come up sometime with new models made this way.
Abouth the sound i just will say, i was really impressed.
But of course, today planars are somewhat exotic.
Magnepan still makes new or improved planars, and they become good votes for the sound when presented on shows.
Also if i make a demo in store, people love the sound of planar, but they buy smaller speakers, nearly always the female part decides abouth the optical design.
He presented me a speaker ( Scintilla Style) , made on Corianframe with stainless steel to get it solid, Neodymmagnet ( a lot of them), the ribbon clampers made out of modern material, all CNC work . Speakers were EXTREME heavy, veeeeeeeeery high efficiency. It has a nice price tag.
He will come up sometime with new models made this way.
Abouth the sound i just will say, i was really impressed.
But of course, today planars are somewhat exotic.
Magnepan still makes new or improved planars, and they become good votes for the sound when presented on shows.
Also if i make a demo in store, people love the sound of planar, but they buy smaller speakers, nearly always the female part decides abouth the optical design.
Luckily SWMBO likes the sound of my Apogees so much she encouraged me to fix them! However I only have the baby hybrids. Corian fronts is in the long term plan for mine...
bill
but has anyone looked at it from a non-boutique standpoint and using something other than hand welded pig iron and MDF? Manufacturing has moved forwards a lot in 20 years.
.
B&Ws that I have owned in the past....trying to get the planer type sound... from small boxs.....Still use MDF in there New 805D...an this is a 2 way small speaker....$5k list price......I don't see much movement....non-boutique type..i cant name one.... .. gets close to the apogee ribbons sound....
I have 3 pr of maggys here.. all older.. an sound great for $40....
I got a pr of the NEw 1.7s.....2k....worst planer typer sound I have had in my home...
I still say to get a old Duetta... better than new with Graz ribbons for 5-6k.....is a stell...
As for the....female part ....I fixet that 35years ago....Audio was the lest of that
but that's just me...........
but has anyone looked at it from a non-boutique standpoint and using something other than hand welded pig iron and MDF? Manufacturing has moved forwards a lot in 20 years.
.
B&Ws that I have owned in the past....trying to get the planer type sound... from small boxs.....Still use MDF in there New 805D...an this is a 2 way small speaker....$5k list price......I don't see much movement....non-boutique type..i cant name one.... .. gets close to the apogee ribbons sound....
I have 3 pr of maggys here.. all older.. an sound great for $40....
I got a pr of the NEw 1.7s.....2k....worst planer typer sound I have had in my home...
I still say to get a old Duetta... better than new with Graz ribbons for 5-6k.....is a stell...
As for the....female part ....I fixet that 35years ago....Audio was the lest of that
but that's just me...........
If I will be able to afford a house in the area I live with enough space to put a duetta in I will be able to afford refurbed duettas (currently around $8k when re-grazed, painted and tweaked from uk repair guy). Realistically calipers would be as big as I could ever go. So for now hybrids it is.
bill, SWMBO?? Your Spouse?
I was discussing with my wife, since i wanna take the FR home.
In the end, the FR have to be white highgloss with transparent side panels, so her eyes can accept somehow and lastly a fingerring with a fancy stone. So you see, the real price for those thingies is double now.
I was discussing with my wife, since i wanna take the FR home.
In the end, the FR have to be white highgloss with transparent side panels, so her eyes can accept somehow and lastly a fingerring with a fancy stone. So you see, the real price for those thingies is double now.
yes sorry 'She Who Must Be Obeyed'. I keep forgetting how international we are here. Also known as the rev limiter 🙂
The FR must look awesome tho. Certainly one of a kind!
The FR must look awesome tho. Certainly one of a kind!
Unless there is a transverse wave on the surface of the bass ribbon, then they do not run in-phase. My observation of the broken bass ribbon was that it showed that WRT the magnetic polarity that along several points on the ribbon, there would be places with very limited drive and/or out of phase drive.
If one does not see a problem at DC, that is interesting to me. Certainly there are out of phase sections with standard musically generated bass signals.
One could easily make such a determination for AC by using a strobe and a signal generator. I do have both things, but not much time to do more than an occasional post or two here. 🙁
Regardless, the transverse wave, if that's it is still a problem.
bear ,my obervation is the same with bad aligned woofer or bad aligned magnets or complete detuned woofers.
Thats why we installers have a magnet ruler from graz to check this and thats why i am precision fanatic in woofer installation and tuning.
The distance between magnet and foil has influence here also and sometimes the perforated metal sheet holding the magnet is bowed or the side clamps have not the same hight and so on.
There are areas between the magnet where the foil is somewhat limited in drive excursion, (the capton carrier does a part of the job here) but should basically be in phase. Anyway depending on frequency some areas of the woofer are driven more than the others, thats why proper tuning plays a major role. Overtightend foils loose there springiness partially when readjusted or change the Fres a lot. Thats why we do not recommend to tighten the springs for buzz removing/reducing.
Aging has influence also of course.
@bill
the FRs rebuild will be started soon 🙂, special transformers are here, foils too...
Thats why we installers have a magnet ruler from graz to check this and thats why i am precision fanatic in woofer installation and tuning.
The distance between magnet and foil has influence here also and sometimes the perforated metal sheet holding the magnet is bowed or the side clamps have not the same hight and so on.
There are areas between the magnet where the foil is somewhat limited in drive excursion, (the capton carrier does a part of the job here) but should basically be in phase. Anyway depending on frequency some areas of the woofer are driven more than the others, thats why proper tuning plays a major role. Overtightend foils loose there springiness partially when readjusted or change the Fres a lot. Thats why we do not recommend to tighten the springs for buzz removing/reducing.
Aging has influence also of course.
@bill
the FRs rebuild will be started soon 🙂, special transformers are here, foils too...
Groove .............I No there a lot of ....Trade Secrets...but is it hard to pull the magets off...or do you just put new in?........is this way diff from the stock Apogee setup.....an whats the cost for this....on a pr of Duettas......thanks
We found a way to remove and reinstall the magnets, but only possible when the woofer foil is ripped off.
Must be very carefull and it is pretty timeconsuming, no mistakes allowed.
Costs you have to ask one the two US-Installers, they are listed on the Apogee Homepage by Graz. I am to far away to do it for you, but they are well trained and expierenced.
Must be very carefull and it is pretty timeconsuming, no mistakes allowed.
Costs you have to ask one the two US-Installers, they are listed on the Apogee Homepage by Graz. I am to far away to do it for you, but they are well trained and expierenced.
GrooveT, Why are the magnets kept in rows from top to bottom, kept square on the straight side, angled side rows drop off to angle, leaves alot of ribbon trace floating in thin air doing nothing?
Al,
It's not really doing nothing. Even though it looks (apparently) outside of influence, that portion of the transducer still resides in magnetic lines of force from the array and is contributing to the motor structure.
I suppose it would have been better to array the magnets in an angled arrangement so their positioning is completely symmetrical to the trapezoid, but I don't think it would have made an appreciable difference, and their assembly jig would have become more complicated.
I've noticed comments through the years about poor (fine) alignment of the magnets from the Apogee factory, and that this aspect could use improvement. I don't buy it. The magnet field is homogenous at that distance, and any slight misalignment of the magnets will make no difference.
Cheers,
Dave.
It's not really doing nothing. Even though it looks (apparently) outside of influence, that portion of the transducer still resides in magnetic lines of force from the array and is contributing to the motor structure.
I suppose it would have been better to array the magnets in an angled arrangement so their positioning is completely symmetrical to the trapezoid, but I don't think it would have made an appreciable difference, and their assembly jig would have become more complicated.
I've noticed comments through the years about poor (fine) alignment of the magnets from the Apogee factory, and that this aspect could use improvement. I don't buy it. The magnet field is homogenous at that distance, and any slight misalignment of the magnets will make no difference.
Cheers,
Dave.
I agree - the magnets being slightly off perfect would not make a difference to the field...I just don't get how "perfect" these speakers were stock and how some in the know can fix "imperfections" like magnet alignment...a marketing gimmick?
In my life of over 60 years.....working for my self or others....there was always some... marketing gimmick.....even if it did not come from me...an I did not agree with it .....but I needed an like the money........who here is diff??
One thing that brings us here.....is the lov of the sound of panel type speakers...why do we not wont the only guy that sale an makes... these bass foils ....Garz... to make money?
Say what you will....to put the new bass foil in these old Apogees... an see if the magnets are not way out of wack...an if so fixs...........would have to help...
sound wise .....maybe even Buzz wise....it not like after the bass foil is in...you cant just go back in to look if there a buzzing magnet..........
I gess it Ezey for me to say this....I have like the sound of Apogee speakers from there start in the 80-90s an have had 10pr.........even if some of there speakers had to be driven with amps like Krell...............that just to get a repair estimate on a KBL preamp cost $380....an to fix $1100. more.............yes the shiping an the $380. had to be paid.... if they fixet or not !..........
I may agree if there were 2 people like GarZ.....but......justsaying
One thing that brings us here.....is the lov of the sound of panel type speakers...why do we not wont the only guy that sale an makes... these bass foils ....Garz... to make money?
Say what you will....to put the new bass foil in these old Apogees... an see if the magnets are not way out of wack...an if so fixs...........would have to help...
sound wise .....maybe even Buzz wise....it not like after the bass foil is in...you cant just go back in to look if there a buzzing magnet..........
I gess it Ezey for me to say this....I have like the sound of Apogee speakers from there start in the 80-90s an have had 10pr.........even if some of there speakers had to be driven with amps like Krell...............that just to get a repair estimate on a KBL preamp cost $380....an to fix $1100. more.............yes the shiping an the $380. had to be paid.... if they fixet or not !..........
I may agree if there were 2 people like GarZ.....but......justsaying
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Thanks Davey, I also agree that the magnet spacing -+ a few thou would make any difference to the sound, I think the ribbon trace line +- a few would make that much of a difference either, All the bass foils I have removed, the magnet rows were pretty dang close, considering the magnets are not exact same width either.
The problem is not a few thousandths of an inch. It's gross misalignment WRT the magnets.
You fellows who think the positioning of the foil traces vs. the magnetic field makes no difference ought to look more carefully. I have one with a ripped woofer diaphragm and it's easy to detect the magnetic field and to see clearly that there is no doubt (in my view) that at times the foil conductors not only do not align with the max of the field, but they actually pass over the counter magnetic polarity.
It's been a decade or more since I pulled them out and looked, but as far as I recall the magnets of necessity alternate polarity between foil turns? N -- S -- N -- S, etc... or was it N - N -- S - S, etc?
This is the crux of the issue.
In my view the entire system would work much better with thinner conductors allowing more conductors per turn and in addition putting the conductors properly over the area of max magnetic field. That would mean some areas of the diaphragm having no foil...
Am I missing something???
_-_-
You fellows who think the positioning of the foil traces vs. the magnetic field makes no difference ought to look more carefully. I have one with a ripped woofer diaphragm and it's easy to detect the magnetic field and to see clearly that there is no doubt (in my view) that at times the foil conductors not only do not align with the max of the field, but they actually pass over the counter magnetic polarity.
It's been a decade or more since I pulled them out and looked, but as far as I recall the magnets of necessity alternate polarity between foil turns? N -- S -- N -- S, etc... or was it N - N -- S - S, etc?
This is the crux of the issue.
In my view the entire system would work much better with thinner conductors allowing more conductors per turn and in addition putting the conductors properly over the area of max magnetic field. That would mean some areas of the diaphragm having no foil...
Am I missing something???
_-_-
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Your initial post indicated you thought the speakers were "put together wrong." A design issue is one thing, but incorrect assembly is another.
I've only evaluted my own Duetta's, but I can clearly see the entire transducer moving in the same direction when excited with DC. Maybe there's more to this than you (or I) understand?
Regardless, it matters not at this point for existing systems in users homes.
I gather you think Graz should redesign his cutting procedure to create a completely different transducer configuration for all repaired Apogee units where the magnets can not be repositioned/replaced easily?
Cheers,
Dave.
I've only evaluted my own Duetta's, but I can clearly see the entire transducer moving in the same direction when excited with DC. Maybe there's more to this than you (or I) understand?
Regardless, it matters not at this point for existing systems in users homes.
I gather you think Graz should redesign his cutting procedure to create a completely different transducer configuration for all repaired Apogee units where the magnets can not be repositioned/replaced easily?
Cheers,
Dave.
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