steve raises interesting pints. As an ex-pro bass player I agree that 12" speakers give better definition, though I would say that the low reister is nice with a 15".
Anyway, my home setup uses a little known Jordan JX92 clone, the Monacor 130AL. Apart from being much cheaper this really is very good, and can be used full range. I recommend trying it. I sometimes use a ribbon tweeter with it, but it's more homogenious without. It's not perfect but it is very good.
Very interesting all DHT amp. Yes - I do know these valves (from Rod Burman??) and yes, I use an all DHT setup myself. Valves whose sound I favour are 1G4, 31, VT-67, 112A, 26 and 2a3 so I tend to use one or other of those. The 3a5 is a useful cheap alternative, as is the 5676.
I'm a member of the London audiocircle and that's where we have our home meets. A lot of valve equipment and mostly DIY home builders. Andy Evans
Anyway, my home setup uses a little known Jordan JX92 clone, the Monacor 130AL. Apart from being much cheaper this really is very good, and can be used full range. I recommend trying it. I sometimes use a ribbon tweeter with it, but it's more homogenious without. It's not perfect but it is very good.
Very interesting all DHT amp. Yes - I do know these valves (from Rod Burman??) and yes, I use an all DHT setup myself. Valves whose sound I favour are 1G4, 31, VT-67, 112A, 26 and 2a3 so I tend to use one or other of those. The 3a5 is a useful cheap alternative, as is the 5676.
I'm a member of the London audiocircle and that's where we have our home meets. A lot of valve equipment and mostly DIY home builders. Andy Evans
Andy, Nice valves your used to listening too..
i favour the brits to be honest.. my next planned driver for the 2 p is Lp220
i have been collecting valves for the last 10years and have most of the 'classic ' british valves, but have lots of americans including a arcturus blue glass 26 from 1929, nice.. i have about 8,000 or so
I used the px4 and px25 for about 6 years.. i may go back to them
i also have a nice pair of stc 4300a that do make a very nice sound..
the london audio circle sounds great, do you allow guests?
I have found you need to meet up to evaluate and learn,
I have run some of the hi fi world meets over the last few years. the first meet there was quite a mixture of kit, multiway speakers, baffles and a few full range.. the last meet was nearly all singe driver or OB and nearly all SE amps..
we have all learnt from each other and the last meet shows the direction we are going..
the trouble with short listens to kit is that you either love or hate what you hear depending what your used to listening too.
i seen too many posts that say how good a new amp or speakers are.. only to hear privately, that after a couple of weeks of use, there are some real weakness apparent.
Simon, I struggle with your view of harshness,
and I think that is my meaning was of the hi fi sound vs live music,
its quite a challenge just to understand what i mean, but think of a triangle being stuck when your next to it.. you can hear it ringing, the tone and the harmonics, and the peak as it is stuck then the decay..
trying to recreate that on most hi fi.....mmmm
I have found that if its on the cd or record you can get close...
but remember everything in the signal path acts as a filter by removing some detail.. my view is that to get a system as 'real sounding' as possible involves the minimum of finest components you can find, and selected so they work together with the minimum of electrical corrections etc in the signal path ...
it is possible to come close to that...
there are alot of people with some funny views on what a hi fi system should do.. and i may just be one of them..
steve
i favour the brits to be honest.. my next planned driver for the 2 p is Lp220
i have been collecting valves for the last 10years and have most of the 'classic ' british valves, but have lots of americans including a arcturus blue glass 26 from 1929, nice.. i have about 8,000 or so
I used the px4 and px25 for about 6 years.. i may go back to them
i also have a nice pair of stc 4300a that do make a very nice sound..
the london audio circle sounds great, do you allow guests?
I have found you need to meet up to evaluate and learn,
I have run some of the hi fi world meets over the last few years. the first meet there was quite a mixture of kit, multiway speakers, baffles and a few full range.. the last meet was nearly all singe driver or OB and nearly all SE amps..
we have all learnt from each other and the last meet shows the direction we are going..
the trouble with short listens to kit is that you either love or hate what you hear depending what your used to listening too.
i seen too many posts that say how good a new amp or speakers are.. only to hear privately, that after a couple of weeks of use, there are some real weakness apparent.
Simon, I struggle with your view of harshness,
and I think that is my meaning was of the hi fi sound vs live music,
its quite a challenge just to understand what i mean, but think of a triangle being stuck when your next to it.. you can hear it ringing, the tone and the harmonics, and the peak as it is stuck then the decay..
trying to recreate that on most hi fi.....mmmm
I have found that if its on the cd or record you can get close...
but remember everything in the signal path acts as a filter by removing some detail.. my view is that to get a system as 'real sounding' as possible involves the minimum of finest components you can find, and selected so they work together with the minimum of electrical corrections etc in the signal path ...
it is possible to come close to that...
there are alot of people with some funny views on what a hi fi system should do.. and i may just be one of them..
steve
steve shiels said:
Steve, I can appreciate that you would. I am very sensitive to harshness and I find many, many systems fatiguing.
Perhaps it is me that prefers a coloured sound in order to make it smooth and easy going at high output levels.
I listen to plenty of live music and anything with amplification (jazz, rock etc.) can sound pretty sharp and stinging at times, so to that end a system which reproduces the effect accurately could easily be considered realistic. And don't forget the acoustics were a bit lively which brings out a peaky midrange emphasis.
Furthermore, most recordings aren't ideal.
Simon
Oh dear, I did say I wouldn't comment on any more equipment 
At 26 years of age I'm still a bit of a newbie compared to a lot of people here! So here's my newbie face
At 26 years of age I'm still a bit of a newbie compared to a lot of people here! So here's my newbie face
its quite a challenge just to understand what i mean, but think of a triangle being stuck when your next to it.. you can hear it ringing, the tone and the harmonics, and the peak as it is stuck then the decay.. trying to recreate that on most hi fi.....mmmm>>
this is EXACTLY why I use directly heated triodes (and no crossover) . DHTs are the only device I've yet used that give me the total sound of acoustic instruments - that particular zing on cymbals, the true sound of a triangle as above, a proper rimshot on a snare (very characteristic sound) - the sound is just not there with indirectly heated valves. It's a rough approximation, but it's not right. A good DHT has it damn near right. I would expect some digital amps to come close, but I'm not familiar with them. Solid state is generally disappointing here. I apologise for the rather elitist tone of this, but you just have to hear DHTs to know what we're talking about. When you do it's obvious. Sounds improbable on paper, especially since the hifi industry gave up on these little critters before the second world war! Andy Evans
this is EXACTLY why I use directly heated triodes (and no crossover) . DHTs are the only device I've yet used that give me the total sound of acoustic instruments - that particular zing on cymbals, the true sound of a triangle as above, a proper rimshot on a snare (very characteristic sound) - the sound is just not there with indirectly heated valves. It's a rough approximation, but it's not right. A good DHT has it damn near right. I would expect some digital amps to come close, but I'm not familiar with them. Solid state is generally disappointing here. I apologise for the rather elitist tone of this, but you just have to hear DHTs to know what we're talking about. When you do it's obvious. Sounds improbable on paper, especially since the hifi industry gave up on these little critters before the second world war! Andy Evans
steve shiels said:
It just goes to show how different we all are, and how our perceptual system extracts what we think is appropriate and disregards everything else. There will never be one perfect system for everyone. Whilst I could appreciate what you were trying to do with your system, I would find it very hard to listen to at home for any length of time. However, this is not an attack on you, I'm sure you would find it equally as difficult to listen to mine for a long period as well. 😉
So who is right?
Al, I bet your speakers play Come as You Are by Nirvana well. Do you have it? It's a slightly rough sounding album but great and a sure classic.
Hugo, if you're there, what was that Tori Amos album of yours I enjoyed? I checked her discography but there's too much and I'm not sure which it was!
SimontY said:
Indeed they do! However, I tend toward Faith no More in that era and genre. Introduce Yourself is a cracking album, and well worth a listen if you like that sort of thing. Were you even born then? 🙂
Excellent. I don't know Faith No More, and if it's before 1981..... I'll check em out. Ta!
Edit: I'd have been 6 at the time it came out. Same year as Document by REM 🙂
Edit: I'd have been 6 at the time it came out. Same year as Document by REM 🙂
pinkmouse said:
I cannot agree more Al,
What i have gone through is that my skills as a listener have changed over the years, i'm sure yours will too.. i now stuggle with the sound of many flaws.. that i was not aware of just a few years ago... i do mean 'not' aware of
we don't stop learning, thats one of the things that makes this a great hobby
i too agree totally with andys comments about dht amps
but there is also something about the sound of Indirect heated triodes too, there are some good ones out there..
But the differences are quite small in my view, much smaller than the difference between good high flux drivers and not quite so high flux
i have goodmans 201's and 301's, the difference in speed and 'life' is marked between them.. that is providing the amp is up to providing what the 301 will produce.. many are not!
steve
Andy, Thats is one of my points,.. its not obvious to many people when they hear them.. that sounds like a daft thing to say when you know what to listen for.... but its true..
It takes time to apprecated these finer details that you and i would not be without...
i've heard a couple of goodish digital amps .. and i'll stick with valves thanks.. for the reasons you have stated..
steve
, especially since the hifi industry gave up on these little critters before the second world war! Andy Evans [/B][/QUOTE]
spot on Andy.. the kit66 was introduced in 1939... down hill from there..?
I have loads of wireless world mags fom the 30's to the 60's
an advert from one of the, at the time, big amplifier manfactures advertised the supremacy of their px4 amp over the then popular kt66 in 1950.... true, i can hear the differences as i type.. in my head..
To the masses..was it was a bit like saying nowadays that the tubed tv's have a better picture quality than a flat screen.. it may be true..
from the jo public prospective who cares....
the kt66 was in fashon ....
the same applies to so much in life..
i happly live in the past as far as valves are concerned..
but not much else..
steve
spot on Andy.. the kit66 was introduced in 1939... down hill from there..?
I have loads of wireless world mags fom the 30's to the 60's
an advert from one of the, at the time, big amplifier manfactures advertised the supremacy of their px4 amp over the then popular kt66 in 1950.... true, i can hear the differences as i type.. in my head..
To the masses..was it was a bit like saying nowadays that the tubed tv's have a better picture quality than a flat screen.. it may be true..
from the jo public prospective who cares....
the kt66 was in fashon ....
the same applies to so much in life..
i happly live in the past as far as valves are concerned..
but not much else..
steve
I remember from the 50s and 60s that expectations from hifi were really quite low. There was no concept of "audiophile" or "high end". Recordings were whatever they were - they started a starring system in the late 50s which made people more aware of good recordings, but I don't think speakers were good enough anyway to tell much difference - here I'm sure you'll violently disagree!! I remember having at least two different types of BBC monitor from that period. We built our own concrete corner columns with Goodman's 10" coax drivers.
Another thing was that stereo was all the rage and we were still gaping at those ping pong records and trains cascading through our living rooms. It was all too much of a novelty. And again, there were no comparative demos in shops. We just didn't know better for the most part.
Andy
Another thing was that stereo was all the rage and we were still gaping at those ping pong records and trains cascading through our living rooms. It was all too much of a novelty. And again, there were no comparative demos in shops. We just didn't know better for the most part.
Andy
Ahhh, FNM. Great band. The album "Angel Dust" would sound great on a decent system... must dig it out and give it a go.
As for Tori albums, her first two ("Little Earthquakes" and "Under The Pink") are probably my favourite for music.
Whilst I don't think it's one of her best albums, "The Beekeeper" from the album of the same name is an interesting track to try.
Early Suzanne Vega stuff is very nicely recorded; "Song of Sand" from "99.9 F°" is very good.
For bass, Massive Attack, and Tool albums are my test choices.
As for Tori albums, her first two ("Little Earthquakes" and "Under The Pink") are probably my favourite for music.
Whilst I don't think it's one of her best albums, "The Beekeeper" from the album of the same name is an interesting track to try.
Early Suzanne Vega stuff is very nicely recorded; "Song of Sand" from "99.9 F°" is very good.
For bass, Massive Attack, and Tool albums are my test choices.
Faith No More. My goodness a blast from the past!
(Simon it was more 91 than 81 - an early nineties alternative rock band, very cool).
Sploo, you're right Angel Dust is a great album - although I dug it out a year ago or so and was a little surprised it wasn't as well recorded as I hoped. 'Everything's ruined' and 'mid life crisis' - my word. I just hope they're on my HDD at work this afternoon. I always Epic was a cool single (was that from their first album?).
My favourite band from the early nineties to tune my teenage angst to were probably Smashing Pumpkins - some of that is very well recorded.
And of course Nirvana were just incredible.
I've never seen anyone comment on the forums about Tori before, always been a huge fan and this surprised me (all this talk of Krall? 😉 ). The first three albums I'd say are timeless (little earthquakes, under the pink, boys for pele). Beautifully recorded and just great. I especially like the harpsichord in boys for pele - very different, very Tori.
Always one to be inventive, I remember Ms. Amos doing a cracking cover of Smells Like Teen Spirit on piano, and she did a Hendrix cover once, where she ran her piano through distortion to mimic his guitar effects. I must try and get hold of those one day.
Tori Amos is ace - and apparently lives in Cornwall these days.
(Simon it was more 91 than 81 - an early nineties alternative rock band, very cool).
Sploo, you're right Angel Dust is a great album - although I dug it out a year ago or so and was a little surprised it wasn't as well recorded as I hoped. 'Everything's ruined' and 'mid life crisis' - my word. I just hope they're on my HDD at work this afternoon. I always Epic was a cool single (was that from their first album?).
My favourite band from the early nineties to tune my teenage angst to were probably Smashing Pumpkins - some of that is very well recorded.
And of course Nirvana were just incredible.
I've never seen anyone comment on the forums about Tori before, always been a huge fan and this surprised me (all this talk of Krall? 😉 ). The first three albums I'd say are timeless (little earthquakes, under the pink, boys for pele). Beautifully recorded and just great. I especially like the harpsichord in boys for pele - very different, very Tori.
Always one to be inventive, I remember Ms. Amos doing a cracking cover of Smells Like Teen Spirit on piano, and she did a Hendrix cover once, where she ran her piano through distortion to mimic his guitar effects. I must try and get hold of those one day.
Tori Amos is ace - and apparently lives in Cornwall these days.
Phil,
I have Under the Pink and indeed it is a nice album. Soundwise it's not overcompressed and sounds very lifelike.
I also have Strange Little Girls, which I don't like very much. This is the album of covers where she only performs songs about "bad things" originally performed by male artists.
The woman has a great voice and I hadn't realised she'd fired out so many albums!
Talking of Krall, there's only one good album: The Girl in the Other Room. The others I have are exceptionally boring. Ironically, the big Krall fans say TGITOR is poppy and the other ones are the good stuff!! This difference of opinion extends beyond music and describes exactly how people can feel about different hi-fi systems....
The reason I always use and mention Krall is, besides the songs being terrific musically, a system's detail level is exposed very well with this recording. The instruments keep getting more real when you upgrade (or tambourines disappear as I said earlier). Actually, the most obvious thing you hear when you take a CD player far enough is the non-music sounds on this album: creaks, rustles, pops, clicks and breathing. There is a repetitive clicking sound on some tracks. A Marantz CD63 ONLY reveals this when you reclock the servo IC (amongst more obvious mods).
Simon
I have Under the Pink and indeed it is a nice album. Soundwise it's not overcompressed and sounds very lifelike.
I also have Strange Little Girls, which I don't like very much. This is the album of covers where she only performs songs about "bad things" originally performed by male artists.
The woman has a great voice and I hadn't realised she'd fired out so many albums!
Talking of Krall, there's only one good album: The Girl in the Other Room. The others I have are exceptionally boring. Ironically, the big Krall fans say TGITOR is poppy and the other ones are the good stuff!! This difference of opinion extends beyond music and describes exactly how people can feel about different hi-fi systems....
The reason I always use and mention Krall is, besides the songs being terrific musically, a system's detail level is exposed very well with this recording. The instruments keep getting more real when you upgrade (or tambourines disappear as I said earlier). Actually, the most obvious thing you hear when you take a CD player far enough is the non-music sounds on this album: creaks, rustles, pops, clicks and breathing. There is a repetitive clicking sound on some tracks. A Marantz CD63 ONLY reveals this when you reclock the servo IC (amongst more obvious mods).
Simon
Strange little girls is a bit odd - although I like enjoy the silence (but I'm also a Depeche Mode fan, so I'm probably biased).
There's another one on there that I liked, but I don't remember what it was.
Darn. Angel Dust isn't on the HDD, but Massive Attack is....
There's another one on there that I liked, but I don't remember what it was.
Darn. Angel Dust isn't on the HDD, but Massive Attack is....
- Status
- Not open for further replies.