Unless you're postulating that a complex mechanism "just happened" and can't attribute it to an accretion that is contingent or obsoleted, you have a tough argument.
No, but over time there are characteristics present that are there despite having no evolutionary "advantage". A simple example would be that some people have moles on their skin and some don't. There is no advantage either way. What's the evolutionary advantage to being able to handle alcohol better than the next person? Nearly every person is able to find a mate and beget offspring, so what evolution has taken place over the last, say, 10 billion examples? Evolution is a theory, not a law.
John
John
Note the word "contingent." The mole example is a good one- it's definitely worse for life expectancy (greater chance of melanoma), but there's likely no evolutionary pressure because those deaths are more concentrated at ages past peak fertility. It's not an evolved feature, it's a contingent one.
edit: Terminological correction- evolution is not a theory, it's an observation. Evolution by natural selection is the theory which explains the observation.
edit: Terminological correction- evolution is not a theory, it's an observation. Evolution by natural selection is the theory which explains the observation.
Possibly none. None if you never drink I guess. But I could make a list of possible advantages as long as you want the list to be.
I sort of disagree with evolution being only an observation. Evolution takes so long how could we possibly have observed it for long enough? Even using the notes of others do the notes go back far enough in time? I don't think so.
I think is a theory that is partly based on observation. If you believe the earth is only 4000 years old I guess there are notes going back far enough to call it observation for some species but if you believe the earth is only 4000 years old it would be unusual if you also believe in evolution.
I don't fully believe in evolution but I think it is the best theory I have heard and is likely to be true to some degree. The best evidence that supports the theory that I know of is Feral Hogs. We have over 200,000 in Texas and they are taking over the whole country and even moving into Canada. Feral Hogs start out being regular farm pigs (pink almost bald guys with curly tails and no tusks) who escape. Within a few years the very same pigs are covered with hair and have big tusks and will kill you. If you have never encountered a wild hog you probably don't believe me but if you have you know I am telling the truth. They will kill you. Their children are even more aggressive and wild looking but you don't have to wait for that. The very same ones who escape make the transition remarkably fast.
An 11 year old kid in Alabama killed a nearly 1100 pound wild hog a few years ago. The hogs head was as big as the kid. Scientists later examined and verified the hog as being a domestic pig who for whatever reason left the farm and went wild. You may have heard of Hogzilla who was a 1000 pound hog killed in Georgia that was photographed but not examined by scientists at the time. Well I think the one that the kid killed pretty much supports Hogzilla being for real. They did later dig up hogzillas body and the scientists think he was more like 800 pounds based on his skeleton. But a 150 pound wild hog will kill you so arguing about 800 vs 1000 is pointless.
Alabama Boy Kills 1,051-Pound Monster Pig, Bigger Than 'Hogzilla' - Local News | News Articles | National News | US News - FOXNews.com
They are by far the most dangerous wild animal in Texas. No contest. We have a small number of bears too but I would rather run into one of them than a wild hog if I were unarmed.
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I had a mountain lion encounter recently. Thanks, but I'll take the hogs.
Can the feral hogs still interbreed with domestic pigs to produce fertile offspring? One important part of the definition of species is reproductive isolation.
BTW, here's a more comprehensive list of directly observed speciation.
Some More Observed Speciation Events
Can the feral hogs still interbreed with domestic pigs to produce fertile offspring? One important part of the definition of species is reproductive isolation.
BTW, here's a more comprehensive list of directly observed speciation.
Some More Observed Speciation Events
When you encountered the cougar were you jogging or riding a bike? Or were you laying or sitting down on the ground? Was a woman with you?
Did you kill the cougar? If you encountered a feral hog and were still here you would most likely have had to kill it unless you made some kind of really slick escape and the hog was unable to catch you. I guess individual hogs might behave differently but all of them around here seem hell bent on killing anybody they run into. And they are everywhere. They do massive property damage too.
Some counties pay bounty for them. All you have to do is bring in pairs of ears and each pair of ears earns you the bounty for one hog. No limit. Killing them is encouraged all over the state even in counties that don't pay bounty.
Did you kill the cougar? If you encountered a feral hog and were still here you would most likely have had to kill it unless you made some kind of really slick escape and the hog was unable to catch you. I guess individual hogs might behave differently but all of them around here seem hell bent on killing anybody they run into. And they are everywhere. They do massive property damage too.
Some counties pay bounty for them. All you have to do is bring in pairs of ears and each pair of ears earns you the bounty for one hog. No limit. Killing them is encouraged all over the state even in counties that don't pay bounty.
Best example for evolution we see live & in person is the development and spread of antibiotic resistant bacteria. Clear example of emergence of mutations that convey survival advantage under novel selective pressure becoming the dominant form.
Hiking. And inside the city limits at that. No, I avoid killing animals except in self-defense or when guarding my food supply- in this case, I wasn't carrying so I doubt I could have caused it any grief other than indigestion.
If I were 40 years younger, there's another answer I could have given...😀
Well the whole point I was making is that people too often ascribe different aspects of human behavior or physical appearance to natural selection without any data to back it up. There may have a period in the distant past when things were much tougher and natural selection was doing some real selecting and humans were much less diverse than they are now. But today, nothing but the most basic characteristics we have in common can be laid to natural selection.
The air war during WWII provided a great deal of information on how men behave when death was certain and only by some miracle were they able to survive. In almost every interview with an airman who describes how he felt when death was certainly upon him, the description was a feeling of absolute peace and serenity. The question was: Has this reaction been hard-wired in since the distant past or is it a separate trait that occurs happenstance in certain individuals?
John
My wife, who spent many years trying to help hundreds of people who were near death (EMS and firefighter), reports that most of them seemed to be in incredible pain and distress at the end. Unless they were in shock. Death was not a pretty thing and there was no magic relief, just horror and suffering. She still has nightmares from some of her memories, especially of the last moments of burn victims.
It's not what we want to hear, but Nature has apparently done nothing to make dying pleasant.
It's not what we want to hear, but Nature has apparently done nothing to make dying pleasant.
Oh ok. So he didn't attack you. Now that makes sense. Mountain Lions are some real tough critters and they can kill you but normally they won't attack adult people. It does happen fairly often but usually because a person is running and so their prey drive kicks in (why they say never run from a wild animal) or it is a woman who is on the rag. There have been times people were attacked because they were on the ground and it was believed the mountain lion thought they were smaller than them (why they say make yourself look as large as possible by holding your arms up above your head)
I think if you ask some people who encounter wild hogs or maybe see what you can find on the internet about "hog attacks" you might be a little more worried about the hogs unless there are none in your area. A wild hog will attack you just for being on its territory. Hog attacks are not misunderstandings.
And seriously, if there are no hogs in your area just wait a while and it is likely there will be. They really are taking over the country. Not long ago they were only in a few southern states and now they are in almost every state and their numbers are growing very fast. They project their population to continue to grow and also to spread geographically. They expect Canada to start filling up with them soon. They are believed to be extremely intelligent and I think they would have to be in order to be rapidly increasing in population and also geographic area in todays world.
This is pretty basic; when there's no more hope the fight ceases. That means peace in your mind BEFORE death, you WILL suffer during transit.
SY is right, Nature doesn't care about our sufferings or pleasures. Health is pleasurable and sickness is pain. Pretty clear.
I wasn't referring to people who were injured or suffering intense pain. That's a whole other story. In the instances I'm referring to, the person is fully conscious and uninjured. They were in situations where they were unable to extricate themselves from a descending airplane, or a parachute wouldn't open, or a similar incident. I have never read a narrative where the pilot acted like Bugs Bunny when the gremlin caused his airplane to go into a nose-dive. 🙂
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1xqrdtJs8w
John
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I completely respect those guys and I am eternally grateful to them but I think it is only fair to point out something. More US air crews were killed in WW2 than any other servicemen. US bomber crews lost 33% of their crewmen.
There have been US air crews who were more unlucky than that though. Of the F-105 crews who flew bomber missions (the F-105 was a bomber actually) "downtown" which is what they called bombing missions in route pack 5 and 6 which was the areas in and around Hanoi and Hai Phong North Vietnam lost 50% of their crewman and the Navy A-4 crews who did the same thing had about the same loss rate. That was the most heavily defended airspace in the world. The F-105 had a higher percentage of its production line destroyed in combat than any other aircraft in the world including the zero and every other plane. The F-105 crews (single seat except for the F models which were two seat) who survived their tour have 100 missions flown patches and that is one of the highest military honors to have (honors that the other guys in the military respect not civilians). It actually means 100 counters. Missions not into route pack 5 and 6 didn't count so they might really have flown 2 or 3 hundred missions but 100 into route pack 5 and 6. I have met one guy with 3 100 missions flown patches. He died a few years ago.
Not to take anything away from them but most WW2 bomber crews got to go home after 25 missions. If you want to talk to some guys who thought they were going to die for sure I would suggest those guys and a lot more of them are still alive to talk to. I doubt there are many if any WW2 bomber crew members who have not died by now.
I know about the last moments of Burn victims and I agree with you 100%. They cough up pieces of their lungs until there are no lungs left. I would prefer to go out some other way. The most humane thing you could do for anybody who was engulfed in flames even for just a matter of seconds is shoot them in the head because they are going to die anyway but it could take up to 3 days.
I also know about shock because I have gone into shock and also not gone into shock when severely injured and I for sure preferred being in shock.
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I have to add that your mind may give up early but your body fights to the end. That causes a lot of suffering. I have a plan to fool my body when the time comes. I still don't have the opiates needed but there's plenty of time to get them -I'm only 40. No withdrawal problems. No rehab. 😀
Hmmm.....isn't immoral to die zone-out? Hope cheating Nature is OK with the Gods.
Hmmm.....isn't immoral to die zone-out? Hope cheating Nature is OK with the Gods.
Good Buddy's dad who passed recently was a B17 belly turret gunner in WWII. Characteristically the WWII guys never talk about it but they had some of his memorabilia displayed at the service - unreal. Never heard those stats on the F105 in Vietnam - hard to understand how you knowingly enter such circumstances. A shame that those with such courage die so young.
it is hardwired into our brains that we wish to control our destiny though. During 9/11 lots of people jumped off the world trade center to a certain death. psychologists explains this as people rathe control how they die, and rather die without extended suffering than being burned alive. once that decision is made then a serenity of mind due to knowing the destiny takes place. this psychological state is not the same as courage, it is a very different emotion.
contrast this with what the boys up on korengal (afghanistan) faced when some of them including our medal of honor recipient. he chose to go into a situation of certain personal death under circumstances when he could have chosen not to and lived, and while he got incredibly lucky and survived while killing a large number of enemies, he and others defines the word courage. Choosing to pursue safety of team members despite near certain death and there is a choice not to pursue this mission is what defines courage. i consider this a very distinctive and important difference from knowing ahead of time that death is imminent.
contrast this with what the boys up on korengal (afghanistan) faced when some of them including our medal of honor recipient. he chose to go into a situation of certain personal death under circumstances when he could have chosen not to and lived, and while he got incredibly lucky and survived while killing a large number of enemies, he and others defines the word courage. Choosing to pursue safety of team members despite near certain death and there is a choice not to pursue this mission is what defines courage. i consider this a very distinctive and important difference from knowing ahead of time that death is imminent.
Do you think they decided to jump or do you think when you are about to be burned alive jumping is an automatic instinctual thing? I am of the opinion that it was not so much some deciding to jump and some deciding to burn alive but probably the ones who were able to jump jumping and the ones who were not able to jump burning alive. Evading flames is a gut reaction not a decision I believe. I have never jumped to avoid burning alive but I have evaded flames without even thinking about it. I think even if for some reason I had decided not to I would have evaded them anyway. When flames are coming right at you and you can feel the heat you get the heck out of the way no matter what you "want" to do. Crippled people run from flames.
But I don't know any of this for a fact except that I evade flames no matter what I think or even before I can think. The rest is just how it seems to me.
I don't want to get too mid-evil but I read some CIA torture manuals on Wikileaks and they say that 3rd or 4th degree burns are about as painful as burns get and beyond that cause less pain rather than more because the nerves are too damaged to work right. They say never burn a guy too deep or it defeats the purpose of torturing him. So I guess if you were being burned alive you could take a small amount of comfort in knowing that it would hurt worse if you were just being burned but not burned to death. The manual said something similar for cuts. Too deep and it causes less instead of more pain. If you inhale the heat from the flames you are going to die for sure though. That is what kills people who have been engulfed in flames but don't die right away. The coughing up lungs deal I mentioned before. So I would jump by decision if my instincts didn't do it for me.
Having said that jumping is not a good way to go either but I think preferable to burning. People don't usually die instantly from a long jump. At the bottom of the Golden Gate Bridge there is a police station with some boats and they have actually saved people who jumped. They say most are alive in the water and some drown before they pull them out but they get some out alive. They break about every bone in their body and mess up many organs but some of them live for a while and some even live period. I think that means that on land you might live for a while before dying and I doubt it would be very pleasant. So I would say if you do jump don't actually jump but dive head first and put your hands down so your head actually hits the concrete first. I did notice some people apparently doing just that when I put "people jumping off of the world trade center" into google and set it on images. You might even get lucky and have a massive heart attack before you hit the concrete.
I think whoever it was earlier in the thread who said there is no good way to die was right on. But there are ways that are worse than other ways I believe. I believe there are things that are worse than dying too. Things I would not want to survive even if I could.
But I don't know any of this for a fact except that I evade flames no matter what I think or even before I can think. The rest is just how it seems to me.
I don't want to get too mid-evil but I read some CIA torture manuals on Wikileaks and they say that 3rd or 4th degree burns are about as painful as burns get and beyond that cause less pain rather than more because the nerves are too damaged to work right. They say never burn a guy too deep or it defeats the purpose of torturing him. So I guess if you were being burned alive you could take a small amount of comfort in knowing that it would hurt worse if you were just being burned but not burned to death. The manual said something similar for cuts. Too deep and it causes less instead of more pain. If you inhale the heat from the flames you are going to die for sure though. That is what kills people who have been engulfed in flames but don't die right away. The coughing up lungs deal I mentioned before. So I would jump by decision if my instincts didn't do it for me.
Having said that jumping is not a good way to go either but I think preferable to burning. People don't usually die instantly from a long jump. At the bottom of the Golden Gate Bridge there is a police station with some boats and they have actually saved people who jumped. They say most are alive in the water and some drown before they pull them out but they get some out alive. They break about every bone in their body and mess up many organs but some of them live for a while and some even live period. I think that means that on land you might live for a while before dying and I doubt it would be very pleasant. So I would say if you do jump don't actually jump but dive head first and put your hands down so your head actually hits the concrete first. I did notice some people apparently doing just that when I put "people jumping off of the world trade center" into google and set it on images. You might even get lucky and have a massive heart attack before you hit the concrete.
I think whoever it was earlier in the thread who said there is no good way to die was right on. But there are ways that are worse than other ways I believe. I believe there are things that are worse than dying too. Things I would not want to survive even if I could.
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