i don't know what agenda or problem there is between you both however i'd like to state that i asked for his opinion as i have asked many of their opinion regardless of what commercial ventures they may be undertaken in. the same way that any opinion on the audio nirvana drivers is just as welcome and well received.
i read a lot of negativity with regards to the AN drivers and upon browsing some offerings noticed some quite significant differences in the quoted specs. at this point i started a fresh thread asking if there had been any changes as there seems to be some decent positive feedback for the drivers. my problem was there was very little actual measurements of the drivers, all those spraying positives were going purely on their listening experiences which is only half way useful as its by its nature very full of bias.
if you wish to offer your listening experiences on your AN driver, i'd welcome a well written review on the AN's strengths and weaknesses with much gratitude.
Zaph uses a Behringer I believe.
Iirc, mark's concern was about zaph testing Mark's driver while having while having his own driver on the market. Not as much about zaph doing measurements.
Iirc, mark's concern was about zaph testing Mark's driver while having while having his own driver on the market. Not as much about zaph doing measurements.
Planet 10 doesn't sell drivers. He sells modifications afaik. If he has an opinion about phase plugs, enable, cone treatment, basket treatment, etc., that has a commercial bias. But last I checked, he was willing to modify any driver someone wanted. Even his regularly stocked, modified drivers are purchased from madisound afaik.
Well, I've had enough. I think I would rather respond to the OP than continue with this. If people don't see anything wrong with the way the Planet10Hifi folks conduct themselves here, then that's their call. IMO, being a diyer with no interests gives you the freedom to post your recommendations, but this privilege is not available to manufacturers and sellers such as planet10.
My experiences with the ANs are quite different to Dave's. I've had the ANs for over three years now. I initially used them in a voight pipe, which is a tapered quarter wave design. They have a true >95db efficiency, which means they need very little power. It also makes them sound really dynamic and lively. They make music come alive. Really good on vocals and simpler music. Not bad on rock, but not the best. The bigger drivers produce lower distortion in general. And also sound big compared to small drivers.
I own several fostex drivers and the larger 8" drivers are similar to the ANs, but costlier. The smaller ones are good too, but sound good in smaller systems. I've also had some 3" corals, the JX92s and the alpair6 and 12. The Jordans are quite flat, but I didn't find the sound very amusing. Maybe I should give them another chance. The Corals are remarkably flat and great drivers, sadly not available new. The Alpairs are also quite good, but very delicate. I found them to be too metallic sounding, but in a less demanding system, they can shine.
So, why AN? Well, they're great for a starter system because of the low cost. You will have leapfrogged several bad speakers in one go. They really get to the heart of the music and into the recording studio. If you have more money, go for the Lowthers. They are definiely a stepup from the ANs.
Now, their response in the treble is quite ragged. It needs some EQ to get rid of the shout and notch the resonances. But it can be managed. There are other tricks too, like stuffing the back of the whizzer cone with polyfill, or foam. And definitely go for the one with phase plugs. It gets rid of the big resonance at 12 kHz.
If all this sounds bad, remember that pretty much all the drivers in the above list have the same problems with a ragged treble and resonances (except the tiny Coral). All in all, the ANs are stunning value for money. Other options could be the Eminence Beta8. See Godzilla's project on the Beta8.
My experiences with the ANs are quite different to Dave's. I've had the ANs for over three years now. I initially used them in a voight pipe, which is a tapered quarter wave design. They have a true >95db efficiency, which means they need very little power. It also makes them sound really dynamic and lively. They make music come alive. Really good on vocals and simpler music. Not bad on rock, but not the best. The bigger drivers produce lower distortion in general. And also sound big compared to small drivers.
I own several fostex drivers and the larger 8" drivers are similar to the ANs, but costlier. The smaller ones are good too, but sound good in smaller systems. I've also had some 3" corals, the JX92s and the alpair6 and 12. The Jordans are quite flat, but I didn't find the sound very amusing. Maybe I should give them another chance. The Corals are remarkably flat and great drivers, sadly not available new. The Alpairs are also quite good, but very delicate. I found them to be too metallic sounding, but in a less demanding system, they can shine.
So, why AN? Well, they're great for a starter system because of the low cost. You will have leapfrogged several bad speakers in one go. They really get to the heart of the music and into the recording studio. If you have more money, go for the Lowthers. They are definiely a stepup from the ANs.
Now, their response in the treble is quite ragged. It needs some EQ to get rid of the shout and notch the resonances. But it can be managed. There are other tricks too, like stuffing the back of the whizzer cone with polyfill, or foam. And definitely go for the one with phase plugs. It gets rid of the big resonance at 12 kHz.
If all this sounds bad, remember that pretty much all the drivers in the above list have the same problems with a ragged treble and resonances (except the tiny Coral). All in all, the ANs are stunning value for money. Other options could be the Eminence Beta8. See Godzilla's project on the Beta8.
Appreciate your elaborate post above - thank you for sharing your listening impressions/experiences with various FR units – this is very useful information for DIYers.
On a different note, we do not have any background of the history between you and P10. Thank you for keeping a watchful eye on the forum norms and looking out for DIYers, but to me at least, it looks like you are attacking Dave’s suggestions on the basis that they are commercially motivated. But are all of Dave’s suggestions/discussions solely commercially motivated? That is not for me to say, but it is clear that he is a BIG fan of small (<5") full range drivers for certain things they do well, and most of the times he suggests small full range drivers. By being in the business of treating and selling treated drivers, if he is morally obligated not to share/comment/suggest, then we would not be getting info/updates on the stuff he is trying out. And not all his try-outs/sell-items get glowing recommendations –for example the new CHP-70 second gen or the CHP-BW. If one feels that Dave is giving wrong and opinionated statements on certain products, then possibly the best way to counter that and benefit the DIY community would be to share one’s own experiences/projects that would point otherwise - as you have done in the above post regarding AN drivers. Dave's knowledge is not perfect. But just because Dave has a business to run doesn’t mean he’s automatically misleading, and just because somebody else has no business interest does not mean they are automatically correct.
I am new to full-rangers (just over a year), but even a year back when I was researching, I found the “cult” of Fostex 🙂 to be pretty widespread among DIYers, and to a large extent even among boutique speaker builders (Decware, Shoppe, Brines Acoustics, Cain & Cain). And yes, there was some Lowther too – but pricey and more intimidating. Nowadays we see a lot of noise around Mark Audio – are the drivers “perfect”? No, but they do offer good value for money, they go into a variety of designs (specially BR boxes, which are easy to design and build, can be compact) and there are a lot of free plans already in place, making it easy to start. I guess TB would have become more popular if their prices were lower (Neo magnets…) and there are some very popular projects like the and TABAQ and Needle with the more affordable drivers.
Folks like P10 Dave, ChrisB, Scottmoose have helped create a free library of designs which makes it very easy for a newbie to build a nice set of speakers using full-range drivers. Yes, most of them are on Fostex and MA (Godzilla has pointed that out quite a few times – but it is practical that they cannot design for all the drivers out there. Recently I’ve seen a post on the “EmKen” – a Ken with a 12” driver of different make. Hearing and learning about more experiences from DIYers using other drivers in other (maybe their own) designs will help promote more variety, specially from folks like yourself who have experienced quite a few makes. Given some of the shortcomings FR drivers have, the “troubleshooting” part is also important like any doping, phase plugs, or basket dampening methods, or any simple corrective circuits.
No offense meant to anybody, and apologies to all if I’ve bored you with this long post, but let's keep the discussions constructive!
On a different note, we do not have any background of the history between you and P10. Thank you for keeping a watchful eye on the forum norms and looking out for DIYers, but to me at least, it looks like you are attacking Dave’s suggestions on the basis that they are commercially motivated. But are all of Dave’s suggestions/discussions solely commercially motivated? That is not for me to say, but it is clear that he is a BIG fan of small (<5") full range drivers for certain things they do well, and most of the times he suggests small full range drivers. By being in the business of treating and selling treated drivers, if he is morally obligated not to share/comment/suggest, then we would not be getting info/updates on the stuff he is trying out. And not all his try-outs/sell-items get glowing recommendations –for example the new CHP-70 second gen or the CHP-BW. If one feels that Dave is giving wrong and opinionated statements on certain products, then possibly the best way to counter that and benefit the DIY community would be to share one’s own experiences/projects that would point otherwise - as you have done in the above post regarding AN drivers. Dave's knowledge is not perfect. But just because Dave has a business to run doesn’t mean he’s automatically misleading, and just because somebody else has no business interest does not mean they are automatically correct.
I am new to full-rangers (just over a year), but even a year back when I was researching, I found the “cult” of Fostex 🙂 to be pretty widespread among DIYers, and to a large extent even among boutique speaker builders (Decware, Shoppe, Brines Acoustics, Cain & Cain). And yes, there was some Lowther too – but pricey and more intimidating. Nowadays we see a lot of noise around Mark Audio – are the drivers “perfect”? No, but they do offer good value for money, they go into a variety of designs (specially BR boxes, which are easy to design and build, can be compact) and there are a lot of free plans already in place, making it easy to start. I guess TB would have become more popular if their prices were lower (Neo magnets…) and there are some very popular projects like the and TABAQ and Needle with the more affordable drivers.
Folks like P10 Dave, ChrisB, Scottmoose have helped create a free library of designs which makes it very easy for a newbie to build a nice set of speakers using full-range drivers. Yes, most of them are on Fostex and MA (Godzilla has pointed that out quite a few times – but it is practical that they cannot design for all the drivers out there. Recently I’ve seen a post on the “EmKen” – a Ken with a 12” driver of different make. Hearing and learning about more experiences from DIYers using other drivers in other (maybe their own) designs will help promote more variety, specially from folks like yourself who have experienced quite a few makes. Given some of the shortcomings FR drivers have, the “troubleshooting” part is also important like any doping, phase plugs, or basket dampening methods, or any simple corrective circuits.
No offense meant to anybody, and apologies to all if I’ve bored you with this long post, but let's keep the discussions constructive!
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Seems a very reasonable post to me. 🙂
I've heard quite a few pairs of ANs now, in a variety of loads, and sonically speaking (which is not the same thing as measurements) they were OK. They didn't particularly grab my attention, but nor did I think they were bad examples of their particular type of drive units either. Speaking generally, and leaving the question of build tolerance / electromechanical specs. aside temporarily, my conclusions FWIW run something along these lines: if there is an equivalent Fostex unit, there is little reason to choose the AN over it, unless you can get it substantially cheaper. The larger models, and the ones with the different magnet types make more of a case for themselves because they offer something different. However, I would advocate some caution with the larger units, because based on the published data, they need very large enclosures to provide what could be objectively regarded as acceptable performance. Probably I'll be accused of bias for that, although I have no 'interest' one way or the other, so I'll throw the question out: does the attached look like an acceptable box alignment to you? If so, fair enough. If not, draw your own conclusions. This is the AN Super12 (published parameters used), in the recommended 2.8ft^3 enclosure, with a 6in diameter x 3in long vent, which if memory serves was reviewed in Affordable Audio a couple of years back. I should stress that it got a very favourable writeup which just goes so show different stokes for different folks; unfortunately, last I checked their old pdfs were no longer available for download & I haven't got a copy saved so I can't give any direct quotes.
I have no wish to get involved with the commercial accusations being bandied around here; they don't seem particularly relevant to what the OP was asking, but from my POV, if somebody has a problem with the contents of a post (any post), that is what the 'report post' facility and the moderator team are there for.
I've heard quite a few pairs of ANs now, in a variety of loads, and sonically speaking (which is not the same thing as measurements) they were OK. They didn't particularly grab my attention, but nor did I think they were bad examples of their particular type
I have no wish to get involved with the commercial accusations being bandied around here; they don't seem particularly relevant to what the OP was asking, but from my POV, if somebody has a problem with the contents of a post (any post), that is what the 'report post' facility and the moderator team are there for.
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Thanks zman 01,for bringing a great deal of moderation to this thread.
You hit the nail on he head.
I am the guy who has the AN10 drivers in the Planet 10 designed "Emken" and Dave is quite right I am well pleased with them.
I came to the forum several years ago, did an enormous amount of reading and eventually built a pair of Mikasa with fostex FE 126En. I then bought a pair of Dave's fully treated drivers which were a vast improvement.
Much correspondence with Dave about the bottom end of the Mikasa resulted in me purchasing CSS SDX7 drivers to supplement the bottom end. Another brilliant improvement.
I then having enjoyed SDX7 purchased Css fr125s and although clever there limitations are too much for me and they are sidelined, but will get further experimentation.
I like wood and enjoy building things and therefore constantly read the forum.
AN drivers intrigued me and I wanted to try a larger full ranger, despite the disquiet about their specs.
I came across Dave.s design asked if I could be a beta tester and away I went.
At no time have I felt any commercial pressure from Dave or anyone else on this forum but I believe we owe Dave a great deal for its existence.
Every body Dave, Scottmoose, Nelson Pass to name a few has very valuable information which we are priveledged to share. Please lets not loose anymore valuable contributors as we seemed to do with MJK due to personal insults.
Everybodies opinion and knowledge is useful and although it may differ from our own does not make it any less valuable.
Our own ears are the final judge and I am sure if somebody fancies trying a speaker a pm to somebody on the forum who owns a pair will alow an audition.
Live and let live guys and lets just thank everybody, with more knowledge than ourselves, for there very valuable guidance.
You hit the nail on he head.
I am the guy who has the AN10 drivers in the Planet 10 designed "Emken" and Dave is quite right I am well pleased with them.
I came to the forum several years ago, did an enormous amount of reading and eventually built a pair of Mikasa with fostex FE 126En. I then bought a pair of Dave's fully treated drivers which were a vast improvement.
Much correspondence with Dave about the bottom end of the Mikasa resulted in me purchasing CSS SDX7 drivers to supplement the bottom end. Another brilliant improvement.
I then having enjoyed SDX7 purchased Css fr125s and although clever there limitations are too much for me and they are sidelined, but will get further experimentation.
I like wood and enjoy building things and therefore constantly read the forum.
AN drivers intrigued me and I wanted to try a larger full ranger, despite the disquiet about their specs.
I came across Dave.s design asked if I could be a beta tester and away I went.
At no time have I felt any commercial pressure from Dave or anyone else on this forum but I believe we owe Dave a great deal for its existence.
Every body Dave, Scottmoose, Nelson Pass to name a few has very valuable information which we are priveledged to share. Please lets not loose anymore valuable contributors as we seemed to do with MJK due to personal insults.
Everybodies opinion and knowledge is useful and although it may differ from our own does not make it any less valuable.
Our own ears are the final judge and I am sure if somebody fancies trying a speaker a pm to somebody on the forum who owns a pair will alow an audition.
Live and let live guys and lets just thank everybody, with more knowledge than ourselves, for there very valuable guidance.
i love this thread
i respect both ra7 and p10 opinions. I do not believe p10 has any real commercial interest beyond their designs. To me in the uk tho, fostex have always been seen as bad PA, and i dont think their cult status is truely deserved. but, each to their own. I would love to see p10 tangband designs, since finding the MA driver u actually want is a mare in the uk, u get left with the models no.one buys. Also the costs arent much different when u compare MA, Fostex and TB.
i respect both ra7 and p10 opinions. I do not believe p10 has any real commercial interest beyond their designs. To me in the uk tho, fostex have always been seen as bad PA, and i dont think their cult status is truely deserved. but, each to their own. I would love to see p10 tangband designs, since finding the MA driver u actually want is a mare in the uk, u get left with the models no.one buys. Also the costs arent much different when u compare MA, Fostex and TB.
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this guy says that he went especially on Hifi Fair to listen to Loudspeakers, and nothing sounded better than his OB with AN Super 10, equaly good- yes, but better- no
http://www.hifi-forum.de/index.php?action=browseT&forum_id=104&thread=22807
and here what German HiFi-Selbstbau says:
Audio Nirvana AN10 Super
http://www.hifi-forum.de/index.php?action=browseT&forum_id=104&thread=22807
and here what German HiFi-Selbstbau says:
Audio Nirvana AN10 Super
Thanks Zia, Scott and dent for your views on the subject!
It would be much less of a problem if Dave tempered his comments with something like "I think driver X is better.... but you know I'm biased, because I sell that driver...." when recommending something from his stable over another driver. That would give the member some perspective when considering Dave's recommendation. Right now it's all too easy to say that Dave has his preferences and it just happens that they line up with what he sells.
As my measurement has shown, and as Dave is well aware through his years of testing, there is a chance of an odd driver falling way out of line with the others. If Dave sees such a driver, would it not be his obligation to test more drivers first rather than posting that case as an example of why that line of drivers is bad? Wouldn't this be considered biased?
I try to post my opinions as much as I can, but I cannot be typing away 24x7 watching every thread in the full range forum. What happens is all the threads get flooded with info about planet10 products and how the rest is crap. There is no chance for other drivers. I've seen them attack Lowthers, ANs and Jordans. And the attack is so strong that anyone seeking an opinion will never go near those drivers again. Let's remember again that this is a "Full Range" forum and not the "planet10Hifi" forum. Besides thread on the FH flat packs and other "products" are opened in the full range forum? Why? There is a perfectly good forum for planet10hifi products, right?
Here's some threads in the full range forum right now:
Thread: Revised Frugal-Horn.com (Passdiy happens in the Pass Labs forum, not the solid state forum)
µFonkenSET solid Cedar Flat-Pak prototypes
Frugel-Horn Mk3 Builds & Build Questions
Frugel-Horn Mk3 Flat-Pak Mock Assembly Instructions (This is a sticky thread. Wow!)
Shall I go on?
I'm sorry this has all boiled over in this thread, but its been simmering for a while now.
It would be much less of a problem if Dave tempered his comments with something like "I think driver X is better.... but you know I'm biased, because I sell that driver...." when recommending something from his stable over another driver. That would give the member some perspective when considering Dave's recommendation. Right now it's all too easy to say that Dave has his preferences and it just happens that they line up with what he sells.
As my measurement has shown, and as Dave is well aware through his years of testing, there is a chance of an odd driver falling way out of line with the others. If Dave sees such a driver, would it not be his obligation to test more drivers first rather than posting that case as an example of why that line of drivers is bad? Wouldn't this be considered biased?
I try to post my opinions as much as I can, but I cannot be typing away 24x7 watching every thread in the full range forum. What happens is all the threads get flooded with info about planet10 products and how the rest is crap. There is no chance for other drivers. I've seen them attack Lowthers, ANs and Jordans. And the attack is so strong that anyone seeking an opinion will never go near those drivers again. Let's remember again that this is a "Full Range" forum and not the "planet10Hifi" forum. Besides thread on the FH flat packs and other "products" are opened in the full range forum? Why? There is a perfectly good forum for planet10hifi products, right?
Here's some threads in the full range forum right now:
Thread: Revised Frugal-Horn.com (Passdiy happens in the Pass Labs forum, not the solid state forum)
µFonkenSET solid Cedar Flat-Pak prototypes
Frugel-Horn Mk3 Builds & Build Questions
Frugel-Horn Mk3 Flat-Pak Mock Assembly Instructions (This is a sticky thread. Wow!)
Shall I go on?
I'm sorry this has all boiled over in this thread, but its been simmering for a while now.
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Oook (as the Librarian would say). That Q has gone up -more than is likely to be caused by a simple low-voltage.
One point I did note -I believe they say the ANs are made by Fostex; as far as I'm aware, they are built by Guide Sound in Taiwan.
I'm also boiling, but my vents are tight closed, if someone don't take that in consideration, I will explode, and when I explode that could be pretty nasty...😀
ra7,
I'm a manufacturer also, so I have to tippy-toe around these issues also. But note as has already been said, Dave does not sell drivers. He sells plans, cabinets and eNabled service for a bunch of drivers and anything you care to send him. I think is is time for you to get off it.
Bob
I'm a manufacturer also, so I have to tippy-toe around these issues also. But note as has already been said, Dave does not sell drivers. He sells plans, cabinets and eNabled service for a bunch of drivers and anything you care to send him. I think is is time for you to get off it.
Bob
Bob that makes no difference, people are not blind nor deaf... but many act so...
could we now go back to the topic please?🙂
could we now go back to the topic please?🙂
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Bob, Dave does sell drivers, albeit with modifications. He is likely to benefit if someone buys an MA or an FE over say, a Jordan. He will also sell you drivers+cabinets, and the cabinets being sold are for MA and small fostex drivers.
A non-commercial site where designs are provided free of charge for DIYers. Commercial builders have very minimal requirements, which does not involve financial gain on Dave's part, Ron's part, ChrisB's part, Bob's part, or my part. You have a problem with that? Taken a look at the FH3 planset recently? Noticed that we ask that if you build a pair, you make a donation to one of our favourite charities? I made that suggestion when we were designing it. I thought it would be a nice gesture. Dave & Chris loved the idea and it was introduced instanta.
Scott is now officially not a happy camper. 🙁
Can't find that in the full range forum. It appears to be in Dave's P10 forum, where it belongs.
So. I spend a large amount of my time, as does Dave & Chris (and Ron, from who's work the curved rear was developed / derived) designing a speaker for other people to use with no charge, & no financial gain on my part. And you complain that there is a thread where people can ask questions about it. Your problem is?
Not in the full range forum it isn't. It is in Dave's P10 forum, where it belongs.
With what?
May I politely suggest that if you have a problem with somebody's posts, use the report post facility. That's what it is there for.
I really do wonder why I bother sometimes.
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that says what i've read about other audio nirvana drivers, the tonal imbalance part. i don't want it from a driver i'm going to spend real money on. i'd rather the breakup just rolled off gentle or stopped way short of getting to the point where it has all kinda of shrieks and lows. i've got a 12" PA driver that already does this and entirely confirmed my dislike for the experience.
however from messing around with the EnABL i can see that a lot of those peaks can vanish with the various tweaks involved, the same with apparent distortion levels. Bud himself has some kind words to say about the AN drivers and he's been fairly true to his word so far about his claims (from what he's instructed me to do).
so does anyone have pre and post EnABL measurements and experiences on AN drivers?
I can use Graphs only in lack of toilet paper... I first must appropriate listen to a Loudspeaker before I can make any Conclusion... but that's just me 🙂
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