Hi Mr. Joshua_G (the Thread-starter folks) and welcome back.
Well, you are right, but I believe that implementation is everything.
As Mr. Throsten Loesch nicely put it in his "Thermionic Valve Analogue Stages for Digital Audio" article:
Consider this example:
A perfectly fine-sounding schematics is copied (Many chinese ebay dac's, based on the 80's Phillips designs).
However, the strong-willed fellow Audiophile is bewildered by the fact that
it does not sound at all the same as the original unit at hand.
The diversion of taste among fellow Audiophiles is not due to the fact that they hear differently,
it is more likely to be a direct result of having different Points of Reference.
An Audiophile who has never heard a very good Valve Amplifier would strongly believe
that SS Amps are superior (as there are many ill-concieved Tube-based Amplifiers).
However, a correctly implemented Tube design has the potential to sound far more musical than the best SS counterparts.
...I have yet to meet one single individual who did not love the CD-77...
cheers
Well, you are right, but I believe that implementation is everything.
As Mr. Throsten Loesch nicely put it in his "Thermionic Valve Analogue Stages for Digital Audio" article:
Consider this example:
A perfectly fine-sounding schematics is copied (Many chinese ebay dac's, based on the 80's Phillips designs).
However, the strong-willed fellow Audiophile is bewildered by the fact that
it does not sound at all the same as the original unit at hand.
The diversion of taste among fellow Audiophiles is not due to the fact that they hear differently,
it is more likely to be a direct result of having different Points of Reference.
An Audiophile who has never heard a very good Valve Amplifier would strongly believe
that SS Amps are superior (as there are many ill-concieved Tube-based Amplifiers).
However, a correctly implemented Tube design has the potential to sound far more musical than the best SS counterparts.
...I have yet to meet one single individual who did not love the CD-77...
cheers
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@ryanj
In theory sounds very interesting, but... let me build and listen to, then I will be very glad to share all the details.
@Alexiss
I cannot claim the absolute superiority of vacuum tubes against solid state devices (seems the CEN/SEN jfet sounds very good), but ... when I look to the curves of the masterpiece of technology I'm using to build my I to V / output stage ... "gold through my eyes" (pass me this citation from another masterpiece from Robert Fripp & Co., alias King Crimson).
Also, the most acclaimed 1541 machines (AMR and Zanden) use tubes output stage, I believe there is a reason. As we well know, vacuum tubes have several limits, but also a great advantage: their linearity.
@Joshua_G
You are absolutely right, a certain device can sound good or bad in different setup, that's the reason I insist on a system rather than a DAC. Concerning the sound, I think a Steinway Grand Piano is always a Steinway, no sound preferences are allowed. The problem is we are far to reproduce it realistically
In theory sounds very interesting, but... let me build and listen to, then I will be very glad to share all the details.
@Alexiss
I cannot claim the absolute superiority of vacuum tubes against solid state devices (seems the CEN/SEN jfet sounds very good), but ... when I look to the curves of the masterpiece of technology I'm using to build my I to V / output stage ... "gold through my eyes" (pass me this citation from another masterpiece from Robert Fripp & Co., alias King Crimson).
Also, the most acclaimed 1541 machines (AMR and Zanden) use tubes output stage, I believe there is a reason. As we well know, vacuum tubes have several limits, but also a great advantage: their linearity.
@Joshua_G
You are absolutely right, a certain device can sound good or bad in different setup, that's the reason I insist on a system rather than a DAC. Concerning the sound, I think a Steinway Grand Piano is always a Steinway, no sound preferences are allowed. The problem is we are far to reproduce it realistically
Hello andrea_mori:
I think we are in full agreement.
Of course. Electronics Design is about making intelligent and calculated compromises:
Using ALL the available technology to reach a specified goal.
The THD rage started many decades ago.
The very Architecture of an Operatinal Amplifier is designed to maximize precision
in Analog Computation Blocks (Hence the name Operational Amplifier)
In order to achieve this objective, some parameters proved to be of outermost importance, hence the Classical OP Paramters were defined.
All I am trying to get across is that these parameters, and most importantly, the way they are achieved in an Analog Gain Block (OP)
has very little significance for its Sonic Performance.
They are even, quite often, very detrimental to the final Audio Performance of the Device.
In addition, new objectives were added to this list of demands -- the worst of all: Power Consumption
Cheers
I think we are in full agreement.
Of course. Electronics Design is about making intelligent and calculated compromises:
Using ALL the available technology to reach a specified goal.
The THD rage started many decades ago.
The very Architecture of an Operatinal Amplifier is designed to maximize precision
in Analog Computation Blocks (Hence the name Operational Amplifier)
In order to achieve this objective, some parameters proved to be of outermost importance, hence the Classical OP Paramters were defined.
All I am trying to get across is that these parameters, and most importantly, the way they are achieved in an Analog Gain Block (OP)
has very little significance for its Sonic Performance.
They are even, quite often, very detrimental to the final Audio Performance of the Device.
In addition, new objectives were added to this list of demands -- the worst of all: Power Consumption
Cheers
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To me, all the technical imperfections are the dirt, that covers the tda1541 performance.
Remove them, and get pure 1541 sound.
If technically, everything is perfect - then you get the sound of 1541 only.
Same goes with i/v. Implement it perfectly, and you'll get the clean sound of it.
Like it or not - it's a matter of taste, since technically there is no flaws to fix.
I'm against adding sonic signatures. They are always wrong. They are the mix of imperfections.
Great to see Joshua here, as he might be my best measurement device, if he'd like to try. Yet i believe he won't like the dac, as my vision of doing things is counter-audiophile way. No fancy caps, no fancy tubes, no fancy connectors and trafos. There are techie-fancy things, but they aren't audiophile-fancy, and audiophiles tend to hate techies and vice versa 🙂
I tend to like the tubes more, versus integrated/ss, when all of them are poorly implemented.
The reason is... current flow, at least as i feel the problem.
Tubes are more or less immune to current emissions. Class A has nice current shapes. Class AB is worst.
Tubes are more or less immune to EMI, FETs are okay, bipolar are worst.
So, the closer we are to bipolar AB, the carefuller our layout and design considerations should be.
Remove them, and get pure 1541 sound.
If technically, everything is perfect - then you get the sound of 1541 only.
Same goes with i/v. Implement it perfectly, and you'll get the clean sound of it.
Like it or not - it's a matter of taste, since technically there is no flaws to fix.
I'm against adding sonic signatures. They are always wrong. They are the mix of imperfections.
Great to see Joshua here, as he might be my best measurement device, if he'd like to try. Yet i believe he won't like the dac, as my vision of doing things is counter-audiophile way. No fancy caps, no fancy tubes, no fancy connectors and trafos. There are techie-fancy things, but they aren't audiophile-fancy, and audiophiles tend to hate techies and vice versa 🙂
I tend to like the tubes more, versus integrated/ss, when all of them are poorly implemented.
The reason is... current flow, at least as i feel the problem.
Tubes are more or less immune to current emissions. Class A has nice current shapes. Class AB is worst.
Tubes are more or less immune to EMI, FETs are okay, bipolar are worst.
So, the closer we are to bipolar AB, the carefuller our layout and design considerations should be.
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On the contrary Sir, Many (including yours truly) think you are ding a very good job indeed.
and Class D stands for Class Disaster.
Cheers
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I love this quote:
Music is art, audio is engineering.
Found if with the name of Stewart Pinkerton, but unsure whether it's his or not... Anyway, it drives me thru all of my audio efforts 🙂
Music is art, audio is engineering.
Found if with the name of Stewart Pinkerton, but unsure whether it's his or not... Anyway, it drives me thru all of my audio efforts 🙂
Excelent idea as the system of Joshua could be a good reference point : AMR-777 (dac chip is TDA1387: close to the 1541 if T. choose it) and if the rest of the systeme is on this level, the inputs of the owner will be welcome.
I'm agree with the assertion of Joshua about the taste of the final outputstage but also with you s3tup. Why?
- if minimum outputstage : you have also the pre & the amp ; that's why John tried to make a player able to drive a speaker (but at the end you need a circuit to amplify for drivibng the speaker). I tried a dac amp of Hifimediy without good conclusion but the price for a second system.
- I have no tubes at home but heard many of them. My conclusion are they are very good for soundstage (very airy) and filtering and naturaly high treble listening fatigue. Is it the tubes or the designers I don't know. I think tubes in the eyes of the owners are better as well because they are more exclusiv...
Whih is good (see in the AMR-77) is that tubes pcb do not need to be on the 1541 core board ! But it has to be if solid state ? Is my understanding correct here ?
Do the core board near to the end according to you S3tup ? Is there big difference with the vano one in philosophy ?
I would like to have the participation of two fanatics abot the TDA1541 : Nazar fellow & Sserg fellow (russian : many good design in this country but not famous enough IMHO)... If you read us, your are welcome.
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Where is this article located?
My experience is different. I met people who heard superb setups, yet prefer different sound qualities. It isn't that people hear differently, it is that different people have different preferences in sound. For instance, one major aspect in personal sound preferences is that there are people who are interested mainly in the 'audiophile sound parameters', while others are interested mainly in the 'musicality' of the setup. By 'musicality' I mean the degree to which listening to music through the setup is engaging and involving. Another difference is that there are people who seek the largest possible degree of 'realism', while others look for 'impressive sound' and so on.
Though you are absolutely right by the point you made that those who didn't hear a really good setup are clueless as to how a setup can sound.
Indeed, no piano can be reproduced fully realistically, let alone an orchestra. Yet, not all people look for realistic sound reproduction, hence differences in personal tastes and preferences.
Audio electronics design involves more than mere electronics, it involves also subjective sound evaluation. There are things affecting the sound quality which aren’t being taught in engineering schools.
http://www.raylectronics.nl/pdfs/Thermionic_Valvestages.pdf
Good point. Actually I look for ALL of these qualities in a playback system.
Amen to that.
That is correct.
good to have you back MR. J
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But as it is about toys to play reproduction they believe those toys are not about personal sound signature taste.... and have matching values like :
- this device is the best of the world
- the price is matching the first point
- etc
Which can be untrue by principle or by the matching with the rest of the system
We have to be prudent about experience of people Because all system is matching about devices, rooms, reccording support (the disc) and the listener : it can not be universal. All the crap systems I heard from professional vendor are legion (but never the marges).
but here we all beam with common points... it's not about rock and JBL speakers 😀
Oh no we come back to philosophy and no technical development
😛😀
- this device is the best of the world
- the price is matching the first point
- etc
Which can be untrue by principle or by the matching with the rest of the system
We have to be prudent about experience of people Because all system is matching about devices, rooms, reccording support (the disc) and the listener : it can not be universal. All the crap systems I heard from professional vendor are legion (but never the marges).
but here we all beam with common points... it's not about rock and JBL speakers 😀
Oh no we come back to philosophy and no technical development
😛😀
How do you evaluate the sound quality? Do you do it by electronics theories, or by measurements alone, or also by subjective listening?
Those who go only by electronics theories and measurements would never agree with those who rely also on subjective listening. To the first group (the 'technocrats'), things like cables, wires, connectors and capacitors are meaningless. To the second group (the 'audiophiles') they have large impact on the sound of the setup.
I'm willing to listen to anything and everything. Yet, I will not spend even one penny in a design by a 'technocrat', without hearing it first.
My understanding of your very interesting input is the TDA1541 need its own (curent to voltage) preamplifier like we see with the turntable ! Well, if it can be in the same device than the dac chip, it means a pot for volume ! I mean not a pre pre but a real pre direct to the amp (tubes or solid state as the pre did the glitch, EMC filtering work before !
Tough one, on the evaluation front 🙂
Yet simple, if played straight. Maximum resolution, maximum realistic, maximum precision in the air (soundstage deepness, positions of instruments, their size and "sound"). Absolutely overhelmed compositions like Metallica's S&M album which consists of loads of noise (*).
Sounds hars to the ears, right? Nope, if the system can make it absolutely enjoyable, well defined, not muddy on extremely heavy passages, where you can easily pinpoint and enjoy violins in the background of Metallica's rock concert, feel the powerful moments that make you shiver... Damn, it's a good system.
If it sounds right on really poor overcompressed recordings, it will sound even better on the good ones. The feel of being there, that's what i'm after.
The Sonic Recreation Of The End Of The World. 😀 (Yep, Pendulum quote 😱).
* Metallica's S&M is one of my favourite test album, on the listening fatigue front. If it sounds powerful yet GOOOD, everything is right with the system. Yet it almost always sounds awful, in different degrees.
I'm aware of these connector, cap sound, other audiophile "voodoo". Yet i try to fix it rather than be part of the gamble, by engineering means.
I believe if there is some sort of "voodoo cult", there would be a reason for it too. Since i'm playing myself an engineer, my take is to fix it with engineery. It would be shameful to simply ignore all of these things, which are a part of our reality. They mostly do have physical, non-esoteric background in them. Which is an engineering due to fix them.
Yep, fix, not exaggerate 'em. I won't be able to reproduce half-dead tuuuby sound of distortion pedal by heavily starved current and russian gazettte-in-machinery-oil caps, thru carbon resistors of 20s.
It's a DAC, not a guitar pedal 😀
And... surely - no reason to spend money on something you haven't listened in person. It's the same gamble - first you look what to buy, then you buy it and try to convince yourself that what you've bought is good, yet ears may think differently. Ears are the last, but most important point in every sound system. Sound system which is made for joy, for ears. 🙂
Heh 🙂
As for distortion and measurements. Sure you can measure the amount of distortion. Yep, just amount of that. Not their sonic signature. For sonic signature - you've gotta listen to evaluate them 🙂
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Whaaaat S3tup! You should not do a blind buy with an AMR-77 or the most expensive AUdio Note or Ayre on Internet without listen before 😀
Hope we can live we a "good enough" (best than nothing) DIY core board developped here 🙂.
Do a SEN/ZEN shematic exist for the TDA 1541 ? Need an unity gain I/V before ?
Is the only way to have a volume pot after a TDA1541 is to do like John in him SD1 player (Rhopoint resistor attenuator bench) or do we can have faith enough in a good (but for all devices) preamp ?
What are the way you listen to your own development ? I imagine at a moement a "good enough" point exist but I find very interesting when people can share a listening together with different places and systems (if same reccordings) to exchange point of views (is there an expression for "point of ears" ?)🙂
Hope we can live we a "good enough" (best than nothing) DIY core board developped here 🙂.
Do a SEN/ZEN shematic exist for the TDA 1541 ? Need an unity gain I/V before ?
Is the only way to have a volume pot after a TDA1541 is to do like John in him SD1 player (Rhopoint resistor attenuator bench) or do we can have faith enough in a good (but for all devices) preamp ?
What are the way you listen to your own development ? I imagine at a moement a "good enough" point exist but I find very interesting when people can share a listening together with different places and systems (if same reccordings) to exchange point of views (is there an expression for "point of ears" ?)🙂
You hold two conflicting attitudes.
One attitude of yours is your belief that capacitors, cables and connectors are 'voodoo', that is, their impact on the sound of the system is only imagined, not real.
Your other attitude is to evaluate the sound quality by listening.
Have you ever tried to prove, or disprove, that belief of yours by listening?
Anyhow, as you testified, you are only playing yourself an engineer. Plays can derive a lot of joy and satisfaction. Attaining supreme sound quality may be something different than such a play.
You are free and welcomed to do whatever may please you. However please accept my apology for not being impressed by engineering plays. My sole concern and interest is the final outcome, namely, the sound quality, which, for me, needs to be of a very high degree of realism.
By the way, speaking of realism in music reproduction: there isn't such thing in music made by electronic instruments, only in music played by acoustic instruments and unamplified human voices. When the reference for the sound quality of a setup is music made by electronic instruments, the degree of realism cannot possibly be evaluated. Which brings me back to what I said before: different people have utterly different sound preferences. What may sound fantastic to one person may sound horrible to another person. That is why I'm not impressed by magazines reviews and other people impressions (concerning sound quality).
False. In both case you need to be at the live event (electrical or acoustical) to speak about accurate reproduction after ! That's all !
Because it's always a unique experience (event : room, place of the listener, etc). And the reccording process is always an added component ! It's not about electrical instrument or not ! and your ears... they decline with ages, so accurate is a trade off.
Hifi is a trade off... I will be scared if acoustical music instruments makers could made electronic device (do they have the knowledge for that? no!) and electronic engeneers could made acoustical instruments ! (do they have the knowledge for that? no!).... or if dac chip had a mouth and could sing ! At the end an engeneer can be a musician of acoustical instrument but have rarely the same skill with both (but to be bad in both !)
Unhappily, I'm sad we have no reccording about platonist dialogues of Platon himself! I'm asking if the understanding should be better in live or with a reccording of it !
@Joshua_G
I agree that only acoustic music should be used to test a system, but in that case there are no preferences. The goal should be anyway to reproduce violin, cello, piano and the difficult orchestra as you can listen in a concert hall. Nothing more or less than this. You should listen to a Steinway as it is, not how you prefer. You could prefer a Bechstein versus a Steinway, but the Steinway is the Steinway, take or leave as it is.
@s3tup
so.. IMHO the engineer approach is correct to me, but remember that physics and measurement (at least at this moment) cannot explain all. Not all are "fancy" devices only, from the technical approach I can tell you the tube I said above is a masterpiece of technology, and the measurements (plots from a curve tracer) confirm that.
@Eldam
The CEN/SEN can be used as IV/Output stage for the TDA1541A. If I'm not wrong @Ryanj is running it with Ian's Fifo buffer and the TDA.
Always thinking to a system, after Marce, Nazar and SSerg, I would ask Iancanada to join this thread, as an FPGA expert, to design a good SD player to be slaved from the MCLK of the DAC.
Keep in mind when we talk about AMR and Zanden, we are talking about systems.
I agree that only acoustic music should be used to test a system, but in that case there are no preferences. The goal should be anyway to reproduce violin, cello, piano and the difficult orchestra as you can listen in a concert hall. Nothing more or less than this. You should listen to a Steinway as it is, not how you prefer. You could prefer a Bechstein versus a Steinway, but the Steinway is the Steinway, take or leave as it is.
@s3tup
so.. IMHO the engineer approach is correct to me, but remember that physics and measurement (at least at this moment) cannot explain all. Not all are "fancy" devices only, from the technical approach I can tell you the tube I said above is a masterpiece of technology, and the measurements (plots from a curve tracer) confirm that.
@Eldam
The CEN/SEN can be used as IV/Output stage for the TDA1541A. If I'm not wrong @Ryanj is running it with Ian's Fifo buffer and the TDA.
Always thinking to a system, after Marce, Nazar and SSerg, I would ask Iancanada to join this thread, as an FPGA expert, to design a good SD player to be slaved from the MCLK of the DAC.
Keep in mind when we talk about AMR and Zanden, we are talking about systems.
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