Engineers, for the most part, are not inclined to buy based on the current vogue designs. They can see through the smoke and mirrors and tell real science from subjective mumbo-jumbo. I usually don't have too much trouble selling technical people on what I do, but the less technical they are the more suspicious they are. The down-right novices flat out don't trust me or believe what I say because its so far from the common dogma that it just doesn't "seem" plausible - so they go with the masses.
There was a guy (a real novice) that I was talking to who was spending about $100,000 on a sound system. I told him that basically I could make a better system for about $10,000. In the end, he was convinced by some other people that I was a charlatan and he gave them his money. How do you account for that? It's a tough business when you can't get a job because you want to save the guy $90,000. I couldn't lower myself to giving him what he wanted just to make the money.
There was a guy (a real novice) that I was talking to who was spending about $100,000 on a sound system. I told him that basically I could make a better system for about $10,000. In the end, he was convinced by some other people that I was a charlatan and he gave them his money. How do you account for that? It's a tough business when you can't get a job because you want to save the guy $90,000. I couldn't lower myself to giving him what he wanted just to make the money.
Funny you should mention that. When I was visiting the guy with the Unities on Sunday, I had to bring CDs. I listen to a PC, and he has a CD player. I was going to bring a copy of Lou Reed's "New York", which is an album I know very well. I purchased it when I was a teenage audiophile, and it shows -
there's a ring of green paint on the edge of the CD, back when this was a "tweak" that was in vogue.
I hastily burned a copy of the CD, as I didn't want the owner of the unities to find out I was a sucker for gimmicks like that, even though I bought the CD when I was 19 years old.
there's a ring of green paint on the edge of the CD, back when this was a "tweak" that was in vogue.
I hastily burned a copy of the CD, as I didn't want the owner of the unities to find out I was a sucker for gimmicks like that, even though I bought the CD when I was 19 years old.
In the early days of CD there was little to no data buffering and errors in data reading were rampant. There is some evidence that certain "tweaks" were useful for minimizing these errors and the need for error correction and hence some sound quality improvements might have been evident. But these days the data is all buffered and the disc data can be read multiple times, if necessary, to get the data read error-free. There is no way that a modern player would ever need to do error correction of any decent disc and hence all "tweaks" are pointless. The data is read out as bits with no errors and that's as good as it can get.
The 15dB notch was evident in measurements posted some years back. I believe Mark Seaton is who posted them, but it may have been Nick that made the measurements.
The first explanation was rounded corners had caused it. The shape of the notch appeared to me to be more likely from summing interference, but I suppose it could have been some kind of internal reflection. In hindsight, I think since a crossover change was made, it probably really was destructive interference between drivers.
The first explanation was rounded corners had caused it. The shape of the notch appeared to me to be more likely from summing interference, but I suppose it could have been some kind of internal reflection. In hindsight, I think since a crossover change was made, it probably really was destructive interference between drivers.
I just went back through some old discussions between Tom Danley and myself. I was wrong about the frequency of the notch: It wasn't at 2.5kHz, but rather at 4.0kHz. It was a 15dB, high Q notch. I remembered that it was about an octave above crossover, where I would have expected summing to still be in play. Hopefully that was the case and the new crossover fixes it.
I've included an excerpt of one of Tom's replies below, where he explains what he thought caused the notch.
At the time of this reply (June 2002), Tom seemed to think the problem was discontinuity causing a reflection and modifying the pattern. We also see a new crossover has been developed. Could be a combination of both things, I don't know. Lots of interactions in a Unity.
Whatever caused the notch, this is definitely an old issue and I'm not trying to rehash old arguments. It has always been uncomfortable to discuss. But I do think it may be a reason not to use the old crossover.
Maybe someone could make a measurement using the old crossover and another with the new. Compare the two to see if the notch disappears. Hopefully, that's the case. If not, then maybe it is a reflection and the foam (like Geddes HOM foam) solves the problem. Either way, I suppose it's probably good information to know for DIY'ers making Unity-style horns.
I've included an excerpt of one of Tom's replies below, where he explains what he thought caused the notch.
tomservo said:
At the time of this reply (June 2002), Tom seemed to think the problem was discontinuity causing a reflection and modifying the pattern. We also see a new crossover has been developed. Could be a combination of both things, I don't know. Lots of interactions in a Unity.
Whatever caused the notch, this is definitely an old issue and I'm not trying to rehash old arguments. It has always been uncomfortable to discuss. But I do think it may be a reason not to use the old crossover.
Maybe someone could make a measurement using the old crossover and another with the new. Compare the two to see if the notch disappears. Hopefully, that's the case. If not, then maybe it is a reflection and the foam (like Geddes HOM foam) solves the problem. Either way, I suppose it's probably good information to know for DIY'ers making Unity-style horns.
Patrick Bateman said:I was too impatient, so answered my own question LOL
The crossover on your page and the crossover on moosebog ARE different. This is intriguing, as I used the crossover from moosebog as the basis of the crossover in my Unity project from 2006.
Basically I tried to do my own crossover, and it was a bit of a disaster. Just couldn't get good results. Then i took the crossover from moosebog, modeled it in Speaker Workshop with *my* drivers, and started tweaking the response until it looked good.
I'd post my crossover, but it's on my other laptop.
Long story short, here's Tom's *new* crossover:
Here's the one from Moosebog. I don't know the origin of this. I found it on the bass list eight years ago.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Those are 2 different crossovers for 2 different tweeters as marked. Top one is for the B&C and lower is for the TAD2001. The TAD2001 did not seem to change response with the corner fill we did while the B&C was very sensitive to it we learned.
John
The crossover you show is for the TAD, not the B&C which is what the crossover I use is for. There were another few versions for the B&C and Radian, too. They are all quite different. The TAD crossover has not been changed at any time. The horn related response problems were only seen in the B&C crossovers. The TAD has a much longer throat and was not effected.
Wayne
We all know your point of view. You have your band of loyal followers and Tom has his. I hope none of Tom's followers bash your product on any of your forums. That would be very rude. We all have our own beliefs, which you will never change, and it's inconsiderate trying. Your descision to leave this thread alone would be appreciated and hopefully Tom's followers will pay you the same courtesy on your forums.
The problems with Tom's crossover not matching the slightly different horn profile that Nick was providing has been rectified. Many owners of these horns have been in contact with me and I've shown them what is required to get the most out of this version of the Unity horn. The fix was made available and the problem resolved in 2002. No point rehashing it now.
BTW I have measured several versions of the Unity crossover in my Unity Horns and there was a very real on axis discontinuity at 4KHz with the first version. My current crossover (see hand drawn crossover posted above) is dead flat through that region (see plots on my homepage).
Cheers
William Cowan
The crossover you show is for the TAD, not the B&C which is what the crossover I use is for. There were another few versions for the B&C and Radian, too. They are all quite different. The TAD crossover has not been changed at any time. The horn related response problems were only seen in the B&C crossovers. The TAD has a much longer throat and was not effected.
Wayne
We all know your point of view. You have your band of loyal followers and Tom has his. I hope none of Tom's followers bash your product on any of your forums. That would be very rude. We all have our own beliefs, which you will never change, and it's inconsiderate trying. Your descision to leave this thread alone would be appreciated and hopefully Tom's followers will pay you the same courtesy on your forums.
The problems with Tom's crossover not matching the slightly different horn profile that Nick was providing has been rectified. Many owners of these horns have been in contact with me and I've shown them what is required to get the most out of this version of the Unity horn. The fix was made available and the problem resolved in 2002. No point rehashing it now.
BTW I have measured several versions of the Unity crossover in my Unity Horns and there was a very real on axis discontinuity at 4KHz with the first version. My current crossover (see hand drawn crossover posted above) is dead flat through that region (see plots on my homepage).
Cheers
William Cowan
Wayne Parham said:
From what I remember it was in the raw tweeter response coming from the midbass holes. I don't remember it being there in my tweeter only versions of the horn. Tom did state that foam on the outer lip of the horn lowered it a bit. The notch was only found directly on axis.
Nick Thanks for the wonderful legacy you left behind. I'd gone though many different speakers in the years proceding the purchase of my horns from you. Since then (2001) they have been the only part of my system that's remained static. They are the best speakers I've heard and I enjoy every moment listening to them like it was my first.
On another note, do you know if the mid drivers sold with those kits are a standard Misco JC5RTF? http://www.miscospeakers.com/SpeakerDetail.cfm?SpeakerID=504
It would be nice to know that replacement mid drivers are readily available, and I could probably be tempted to build another pair of horns for the games room up the other end of the house.
Cheers
William Cowan
On another note, do you know if the mid drivers sold with those kits are a standard Misco JC5RTF? http://www.miscospeakers.com/SpeakerDetail.cfm?SpeakerID=504
It would be nice to know that replacement mid drivers are readily available, and I could probably be tempted to build another pair of horns for the games room up the other end of the house.
Cheers
William Cowan
I will leave this thread alone, because I see it is still too sensitive. But please know that my comments were made with the best intentions. I am not casting any aspersions, nor should my comments be interpreted as such.
I don't really think you know my point of view. I won't elaborate at length because it isn't useful. But I will say that the rift between the two camps is exactly for the reason you said. A Servodrive employee marched into the Pi Speakers forum a long time ago and boasted about the Unity, showing the exact response curve we're talking about now. Looking back on it now, he was probably just excited and didn't mean to be rude. But at the time, I objected loudly, probably an overreaction. It was an encroachment that I felt was rude.
Regardless, I let that go a long time ago.
I will say this, and I think this is useful. I respect many people here that I suspect have some lingering animosity. You're one of them and so is John Hancock. You're both extremely intelligent, and I always expect you to have thought through the issues when entering a discussion. There are several others, but they haven't chimed in so I won't bring their names into it. Except Tom Danley, who I respect as well.
I'm not going to bash anything, especially something that has so much creative effort brought to bear on its execution. Certainly not today. In the past, I felt like the Emporer's New Clothes story was unfolding in my forum, and I said so at that time. But like I said, that's water under the bridge and I try to practice restraint of tongue and pen these days, even if I feel that I am being attacked.
I'd like to see less vitriol when I comment on something like this. This is a DIY forum, not a company support forum. I think my comments were productive. It seems you have found the same thing I said back in 2002. Said in the right tone, it is useful information to elaborate on why the new crossover might be better, and why the old one should possibly be replaced. I hope you can look back at my recent comments and see if you think I should have kept quiet, or if my comments were expressed with the right attitude and in good faith.
cowanaudio said:
I don't really think you know my point of view. I won't elaborate at length because it isn't useful. But I will say that the rift between the two camps is exactly for the reason you said. A Servodrive employee marched into the Pi Speakers forum a long time ago and boasted about the Unity, showing the exact response curve we're talking about now. Looking back on it now, he was probably just excited and didn't mean to be rude. But at the time, I objected loudly, probably an overreaction. It was an encroachment that I felt was rude.
Regardless, I let that go a long time ago.
I will say this, and I think this is useful. I respect many people here that I suspect have some lingering animosity. You're one of them and so is John Hancock. You're both extremely intelligent, and I always expect you to have thought through the issues when entering a discussion. There are several others, but they haven't chimed in so I won't bring their names into it. Except Tom Danley, who I respect as well.
I'm not going to bash anything, especially something that has so much creative effort brought to bear on its execution. Certainly not today. In the past, I felt like the Emporer's New Clothes story was unfolding in my forum, and I said so at that time. But like I said, that's water under the bridge and I try to practice restraint of tongue and pen these days, even if I feel that I am being attacked.
I'd like to see less vitriol when I comment on something like this. This is a DIY forum, not a company support forum. I think my comments were productive. It seems you have found the same thing I said back in 2002. Said in the right tone, it is useful information to elaborate on why the new crossover might be better, and why the old one should possibly be replaced. I hope you can look back at my recent comments and see if you think I should have kept quiet, or if my comments were expressed with the right attitude and in good faith.
cowanaudio said:
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