In the next few months I expect to start the build of a corner vertical array pair of speakers.
This will be used in a fairly small lounge living room with multiple sources, digital and analogue.
Consequently I thought to start a thread that others might follow later if they wished.
Some current outstanding questions for starters are;
I have read a good part of the many threads and contributions and would greatly appreciate input of guidance, knowledge, experience and expertise from those of you who have the kindness and patience!
I would then document decisions and results as they come along.
Many thanks in advance
M
This will be used in a fairly small lounge living room with multiple sources, digital and analogue.
- Vinyl
- CD
- Streaming, media etc
- TV
- Computer files
- To put them right in the corners, out the way. I took the pic attached when moving the furniture around just to show where they would go, right in the corners outside where the current speakers are standing at the time of the picture. I should explain that the current speakers are not normally diverging and the polystyrene sheet next to the TV is just old packaging! – the sound bar etc would go. The room is very asymmetric, the left “corner” of the listening area being created by a pillar that holds the structure for upstairs. I don’t know what happens with the structural beam running across, in terms of reflections.
- To significantly exceed the sound quality available from commercially available loudspeakers.
- To reduce to a minimum the listening position sensitivity one normally finds with two speaker stereo speakers, which I understand these should help with.
- To hear some of the magic attributed to vertical arrays of full range speakers.
- Ultimately to make it fairly simple to operate and control, remotes for source and volume would be nice.
- I imagine my project would be a decide, design and build and use project, not numerous constant experiments, and so would not follow the depths and details of projects like the two towers, admirable though I am sure they are.
Consequently I thought to start a thread that others might follow later if they wished.
Some current outstanding questions for starters are;
- Amplification, I have an existing old Musical Fidelity A100 that might be pressed into service?
- EQ, I have no experience other than that gathered from operating my Hypex plate amps that drive the bass and provide room EQ of my 3-way system I built a few years ago to the Troels Gravesen Fusion design for another room. So I have the UMIK1 and measured and adjusted to achieve a reasonable in room plot with those.
- I have read about different wiring, shading etc and am rapidly moving out of areas I understand!
- Currently I would intend to build a wooden cabinet (maybe black MDF) version of Murphys Corner array or some of the others, with around 50 (25 per side) Vifa TC 9’s, and move on gradually from there.
- If I build a cabinet with 25 units at 83.7mm each that totals 2092.5mm and the room is 2425 high. What happens to the remaining 332.5 mm, a little bit for the base etc, but then the arrays are not fully floor to ceiling, does this matter?
- I understand its sensible to buy some spares, so maybe 55 units, I wonder if I can get a reasonable price somewhere on that number?
- I have read of volume per unit at 1.5 to 2.7 litres, some sealed some not………..To fit the corners neatly the small end would be easier, a triangle section or similar with knocked off corners.
- If the cabinets are suitably designed they could bolt into rawl bolts on the walls to keep them as rigidly mounted as the walls?
- A black grille finish, as seen on threads appeals to make them as inconspicuous as possible.
- A foam/felt strip either side of the driver lines might keep the grille/cover at a reasonable clearance and deal with some edge effects satisfactorily?
I have read a good part of the many threads and contributions and would greatly appreciate input of guidance, knowledge, experience and expertise from those of you who have the kindness and patience!
I would then document decisions and results as they come along.
Many thanks in advance
M
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Wesayso is gonna be your guiding light here and I suspect you’ll hear from him soon……he’s very helpful.
My issue with your intended install will be the power response mismatch with the left side being much more open in presentation and the right side having a perpendicular boundary……arrays have very wide horizontal dispersion....I can’t see a physical way of effectively balancing the very different wavefronts…..the wall to the right is going to reflect a lot of energy back into the soundfield. I’d ask those questions first……this seems like a classic ‘should I’ questions instead of ‘could I’.
My issue with your intended install will be the power response mismatch with the left side being much more open in presentation and the right side having a perpendicular boundary……arrays have very wide horizontal dispersion....I can’t see a physical way of effectively balancing the very different wavefronts…..the wall to the right is going to reflect a lot of energy back into the soundfield. I’d ask those questions first……this seems like a classic ‘should I’ questions instead of ‘could I’.
Interesting Mayhem, and thanks, i am certain that you are correct there will be a mismatch, and the right hand side will differ also when the blind over the window is open or shut, however, as there will be EQ anyway, one assumes something useful can be done with that to help a bit?
But surely this is the case with most home systems, perfect symmetry etc isn't available and this will be reasonably adaptable as it requires capable EQ anyway?
By the way, how does one alert contributors to a new thread like this?
M
But surely this is the case with most home systems, perfect symmetry etc isn't available and this will be reasonably adaptable as it requires capable EQ anyway?
By the way, how does one alert contributors to a new thread like this?
M
Many thanks TNT, i didn't explain myself well! - often the case!
What i meant to ask is how do i alert people who i don't know that i hope they might read the thread and respond please?
So i don't know who they all are...........but hope they will help me!
Maybe one just has to wait until folk happen to see it?
M
What i meant to ask is how do i alert people who i don't know that i hope they might read the thread and respond please?
So i don't know who they all are...........but hope they will help me!
Maybe one just has to wait until folk happen to see it?
M
Sounds like a fun project.
I did some experiments with line arrays last year and ended up going with a WWMTMWW instead. The interference/comb filtering at high frequencies was a real problem for me. The other problem was finding a driver that was both affordable enough (to buy many of) AND sounded good wideband. In the end I thought the WWMTMWW just sounded better (in my case).
Still, I see the appeal of line arrays and may give them another go at some point. Excited to see what you come up with.
What drivers are you considering?
If this is your first line array, that may be wishful thinking.
I did some experiments with line arrays last year and ended up going with a WWMTMWW instead. The interference/comb filtering at high frequencies was a real problem for me. The other problem was finding a driver that was both affordable enough (to buy many of) AND sounded good wideband. In the end I thought the WWMTMWW just sounded better (in my case).
Still, I see the appeal of line arrays and may give them another go at some point. Excited to see what you come up with.
What drivers are you considering?
I can tell I have a very good result with a stereo pair 8cm fullranges (closed box with stuffed/ damped reflex port) close to back wall and crossed over with just 340uF to a marble subwoofer active 12db.
Could merry a subwoofer to the small FRs without sonic faults with the help of a 2.1 amplifier offering 12db slope and loudness adjustment of the 20cm single woofer in corner placement.
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...-concrete-loudspeaker-box.406856/post-7547864
Behind the TV a hidden stereo pair of small audax like tweeters, with 6db 1.5uF, 12 ohm impedance. Facing to the ceiling for indirect sound field in the highs. These tweeters were made for the use with only one capacitor.
Try inverting the tweeters and listening to it, showed improvement with right polarity.
The setup can play pretty loud, too.
So already the back wall helps omitting baffle step.
These little JVC fullrange are linear from 70hz to 18khz. They were designed as a drop in speaker for TVs which once had more depth than the modern TVs now.
Have put aluminium foil to the paper cone fullrange diy sandwich.
What I want to say: you can try first a single FR before making an array and in your room and because of asymmetry in your room - omit the corner.
You cannot EQ the missing corner!
Just use your back wall next to your TV.
At the moment I listen to Mozarts Requiem on Youtube. (orchestre national de France)
Could merry a subwoofer to the small FRs without sonic faults with the help of a 2.1 amplifier offering 12db slope and loudness adjustment of the 20cm single woofer in corner placement.
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...-concrete-loudspeaker-box.406856/post-7547864
Behind the TV a hidden stereo pair of small audax like tweeters, with 6db 1.5uF, 12 ohm impedance. Facing to the ceiling for indirect sound field in the highs. These tweeters were made for the use with only one capacitor.
Try inverting the tweeters and listening to it, showed improvement with right polarity.
The setup can play pretty loud, too.
So already the back wall helps omitting baffle step.
These little JVC fullrange are linear from 70hz to 18khz. They were designed as a drop in speaker for TVs which once had more depth than the modern TVs now.
Have put aluminium foil to the paper cone fullrange diy sandwich.
What I want to say: you can try first a single FR before making an array and in your room and because of asymmetry in your room - omit the corner.
You cannot EQ the missing corner!
Just use your back wall next to your TV.
At the moment I listen to Mozarts Requiem on Youtube. (orchestre national de France)
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Thanks Gregulator.
You are probably absolutely correct! - and yes it is my first line array, but i doubt i have a world exclusive on wishful thinking and am happy to share it around......i have seen (and read about) what some contributors have already done and i believe i am nowhere near so demanding as some of them in terms of results, so I based my comments on expecting to be more easily pleased than how i discern some of them, and as they are happy.........i should be ecstatic?
I guess what I mean to convey is that the units will be in daily use after completion and i don't intend (!) to build a whole series of different ones.
So evolution allowed but not expecting scrap and start again. Tuning a definite.
Reading other peoples experience i believe i can be happy with identical FR driver units throughout, Vifa TC9's are intended. which is i understand the solution a couple of apparently excellent projects adopted. Maybe this avoids crossover problems as well?
I shall remain open minded, if i can!
M
You are probably absolutely correct! - and yes it is my first line array, but i doubt i have a world exclusive on wishful thinking and am happy to share it around......i have seen (and read about) what some contributors have already done and i believe i am nowhere near so demanding as some of them in terms of results, so I based my comments on expecting to be more easily pleased than how i discern some of them, and as they are happy.........i should be ecstatic?
I guess what I mean to convey is that the units will be in daily use after completion and i don't intend (!) to build a whole series of different ones.
So evolution allowed but not expecting scrap and start again. Tuning a definite.
Reading other peoples experience i believe i can be happy with identical FR driver units throughout, Vifa TC9's are intended. which is i understand the solution a couple of apparently excellent projects adopted. Maybe this avoids crossover problems as well?
I shall remain open minded, if i can!
M
Great input thanks Freedom! - i can see already i shall have great difficulty deciding a direction to take!
I will wish to convince myself the results will be better than my current three way boxes before i build the new ones (not the Proaccs in the picture but in my other room)
I intend to build a single module of the tower for proof of concept at some point before starting the whole set.
I see enough corner arrays with identical drivers throughout from a wide variety of designer/builders to convince me to use identical drivers throughout in a geometry like the various solutions using 25 Vifa TC9's each side with no gaps between them.
I will wish to convince myself the results will be better than my current three way boxes before i build the new ones (not the Proaccs in the picture but in my other room)
I intend to build a single module of the tower for proof of concept at some point before starting the whole set.
I see enough corner arrays with identical drivers throughout from a wide variety of designer/builders to convince me to use identical drivers throughout in a geometry like the various solutions using 25 Vifa TC9's each side with no gaps between them.
Yes, it is the appeal of what a floor to ceiling array can do in the style of sound that i wish to follow, it is not for loudness (volume) as i dont listen loud anyway, and the EQ will suck a lot from the potential volume by getting the EQ flat down to some point yet to be decided.......
Great replies so far thanks!
Great replies so far thanks!
Hi Mike, I guess you've seen my 400+ page thread (lol). Working on a synopsis here. No need to be as fanatic or crazy as me to get to a point of being able to enjoy arrays. Many have done it with way simpler solutions or means.
There are a couple of things to understand though. As mayhem13 said, arrays with the TC9 driver have a pretty wide horizontal dispersion.
If I were in your shoes, I wouldn't completely cram the speakers in the corners. I'd build them free-standing and get an absorbing panel on that right side beside the array.
(Free standing speakers have the advantage that you can play with toe in (believe me it's worth it) and have a little play with distances to walls. Look for 2 about liters per driver for the TC9 if you want to extend it (pretty) low)
The panel (filled with something like that itchy fluffy kind fiberglass isolation or a more modern variant) should help to be able to get somewhat similar sound from both sides, which is what Stereo is relying on. I have such a sub optimal placement too and do use a large panel next to my left array.
I have two more panels, one behind my couch and the other beside the couch on the left side. You could do without those 2 and still get acceptable or even good sound.
But to have a shot at good sound, that right side really does need some help.
Further, you'll have to find a way, suitable to your wishes, to apply EQ. I don't play vinyl, so basically all my sources are digital, in fact, all are on my PC and EQ is done with the PC as well. The use of a PC gives a world of opportunity's for processing and (way) more than half of my experiments have been just that, playing with all kinds of possible outcomes by changing that processing. What can I say, I like to tinker.
I can perfectly understand not wanting to go that far. Several users have used a PC, but a small fan-less one to use specifically for that job. You could opt for a hardware solution too like MiniDSP or some other capable devise.
Be assured, for an array project to work, the EQ is an important part. So think long and hard what you want or expect it to do.
As far as shading goes, you don't need shading for starters (most satisfied users don't use any shading, to my knowledge). You may not need shading at all. I've used frequency shading of my own flavor, more to see if I could do it than that I needed to. I like playing with this stuff (way too much) as well as the listening part
. But do know I've nearly always had a functional speaker along the way to enjoy. In december I'll have a 10 year anniversary of enjoying these speakers.
There's always options if you end up wanting something different, like sticking a tweeter in the center. A solution like that seems simple but sadly it has it's own drawbacks.
It had always been a back-up plan for me but I never needed it. If you're good with computers, get the Vituixcad starter model from nc535 and play with it. You'll get an idea of how much EQ is needed to run these arrays. It isn't a huge problem if the array does not extend all the way to the ceiling. Vituixcad can visualize that for you. A tall array is a must if you like seated and standing enjoyment. Personally, I'd never build a small array, taller ones work so much better.
Enough for one night I think, but look around in the room you plan to use them and look at all parallel planes to the speakers. Those are the ones that will give reflections. The floor and ceiling isn't a problem, but close planes to the arrays like that right side wall are. Figure out if you can do something there. Maybe a panel that is easy on the eyes that absorbs most higher frequencies.
Maybe we call in some array users or experimenters to see what they have to say? Where are you, @fluid @nc535 @Nvphotos @TNT @Halair... it seems halair isn't a frequent anymore, don't miss his threads,
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/halair-column-my-line-array-build-20-fr-drivers.253367/ and his second build:
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...s-fullrange-line-array-vifa-tc9-18-08.341306/
There have been more, but you've probably seen many already. Oh yeah, before I forget, we're here to help! Many experienced array users that are willing to help along the way.
There are a couple of things to understand though. As mayhem13 said, arrays with the TC9 driver have a pretty wide horizontal dispersion.
If I were in your shoes, I wouldn't completely cram the speakers in the corners. I'd build them free-standing and get an absorbing panel on that right side beside the array.
(Free standing speakers have the advantage that you can play with toe in (believe me it's worth it) and have a little play with distances to walls. Look for 2 about liters per driver for the TC9 if you want to extend it (pretty) low)
The panel (filled with something like that itchy fluffy kind fiberglass isolation or a more modern variant) should help to be able to get somewhat similar sound from both sides, which is what Stereo is relying on. I have such a sub optimal placement too and do use a large panel next to my left array.
I have two more panels, one behind my couch and the other beside the couch on the left side. You could do without those 2 and still get acceptable or even good sound.
But to have a shot at good sound, that right side really does need some help.
Further, you'll have to find a way, suitable to your wishes, to apply EQ. I don't play vinyl, so basically all my sources are digital, in fact, all are on my PC and EQ is done with the PC as well. The use of a PC gives a world of opportunity's for processing and (way) more than half of my experiments have been just that, playing with all kinds of possible outcomes by changing that processing. What can I say, I like to tinker.
I can perfectly understand not wanting to go that far. Several users have used a PC, but a small fan-less one to use specifically for that job. You could opt for a hardware solution too like MiniDSP or some other capable devise.
Be assured, for an array project to work, the EQ is an important part. So think long and hard what you want or expect it to do.
As far as shading goes, you don't need shading for starters (most satisfied users don't use any shading, to my knowledge). You may not need shading at all. I've used frequency shading of my own flavor, more to see if I could do it than that I needed to. I like playing with this stuff (way too much) as well as the listening part
. But do know I've nearly always had a functional speaker along the way to enjoy. In december I'll have a 10 year anniversary of enjoying these speakers.There's always options if you end up wanting something different, like sticking a tweeter in the center. A solution like that seems simple but sadly it has it's own drawbacks.
It had always been a back-up plan for me but I never needed it. If you're good with computers, get the Vituixcad starter model from nc535 and play with it. You'll get an idea of how much EQ is needed to run these arrays. It isn't a huge problem if the array does not extend all the way to the ceiling. Vituixcad can visualize that for you. A tall array is a must if you like seated and standing enjoyment. Personally, I'd never build a small array, taller ones work so much better.
Enough for one night I think, but look around in the room you plan to use them and look at all parallel planes to the speakers. Those are the ones that will give reflections. The floor and ceiling isn't a problem, but close planes to the arrays like that right side wall are. Figure out if you can do something there. Maybe a panel that is easy on the eyes that absorbs most higher frequencies.
Maybe we call in some array users or experimenters to see what they have to say? Where are you, @fluid @nc535 @Nvphotos @TNT @Halair... it seems halair isn't a frequent anymore, don't miss his threads,
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/halair-column-my-line-array-build-20-fr-drivers.253367/ and his second build:
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...s-fullrange-line-array-vifa-tc9-18-08.341306/
There have been more, but you've probably seen many already. Oh yeah, before I forget, we're here to help! Many experienced array users that are willing to help along the way.
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And that is the basis of my start point, which i will try to keep in view as i progress!
Meanwhile, just to understand, why do they have any less reflections from ceiling and floor than any other type, or is it that with the complete vertical line all reflecting, they don't have the one dominant vertical reflection that a conventional speaker would produce and be limited by?
I have seen your thread wesayso!
Amazing in many ways and at many levels, - and thankyou for joining the discussion.
Also to everyone else, there is no chance I would do this without such help and support.
You mention there are a couple of things to understand and i already see dozens, so i shall take it slowly.
I see how the room is not ideal, but that wont change anytime soon, and its not even as simple as currently described, so i will draw it out properly as a next stage
More soon
Mike
The floor and ceiling reduced reflections are the result of the dispersion pattern of an array…. VERY narrow vertically but extremely wide horizontally…..these properties are what make them ideal as long range solutions for live venues as their coverage patterns are near ideal….and now with the advances in digital processing, steerable.
If you examine or ‘take stock’ of your space and needs, you’ll find there’s no direct need for the design benefits of a line array, and far less from a corner built solution with wide horizontal dispersion. A pair of corner loaded horn based speakers with a 60x50 pattern would yield far better results in your space without the fuss giving you controlled directivity and point source imaging…..both ideal characteristics of small listening spaces.
But in the true spirit of DIY, and you still want to continue…..go for it. Sometimes the journey is better than the destination where the learning factor can’t be measured.
My final recommendation to you on this topic would be to instead build a pair of free standing MMTMM or WMTMW narrow towers with drivers no larger than 6”. Add in a pair of corner loaded subwoofers. The vertical alignment still gives you a somewhat controlled vertical pattern and with the narrow towers away from the side walls, less of a room impact from the wide horizontal dispersion.
And if you wanted to really break some ground and still enjoy the benefits of an array and at the same time, quench your thirst for a project?…..there’s this
mtm
mtm
mtm
mtm
mtm
mtm
mtm
mtm
…….with each horizontal MTM section comes the physical advantage of controlled horizontal dispersion as well as the vertical. The array is shorter but still covers the listening window completely. This is the typical commercial line array design. By doubling up on the midwoofers, you maintain that surface area needed for the visceral midbass response arrays are known for. And crossover components and design are still minimal….it’s still a simple 2 way by nature……a 2x4 DSP solution is a very effective option here. If you chose say 4” FR or midbass drivers, you have a 60” tall or so speaker accounting for floor offset. Sounds like a lot of fun to me!
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