Depending on the addition of added components to this harmon , the so called
"truth" can be reached.
Your harmon is the most simple example of a basic current sourced LIN topology.
The forums "badger amp" and many others are just embellished "conclusions" to this design.
Adding a MT-200 EF2 or 3 to this design can result in a part per million (nearly
distortion free) end product.
All this talk of natural midranges and solid bass is mostly subjective from a zero distortion perspective.
The source , and only the source .... is the main contributor to any "truth" here.
Look to any flavor of this type of design to be a "final solution" (really).
Edit - for electrostatics, a 3 pair EF3 MT-200 power section with reasonable rails would
be superior to (anything) at any level or load.
OS
Last edited:
I agree that its a simplistic "type" of amplifier but it sure plays very realistic! giving with some of the prerequisites of music that i described above...
Agreed the source is the (key) if you will.... but once you have this KEY its the amplifier that this key unlocks.
there is IMO no electrostatic speaker that can touch my fulton speakers I have owned or heard them all well almost... quad 57, 63, acoustat monitors 3,4 2.2 ...beveridge 2sw they somehow can give you the illusion of a very clear picture but totally miss out in the human quality we hear live you know the kind im talking about when you listen live its just it music ...you dont think of distortion or how dynamic it is or clear or whatever its the real thing non of this audiophile BS comes into play here when you hear it live!
Lawrence
If the distortion or other characteristic features of early, simple amplifiers is what induces "realism" in the program then that realism is an illusion, right? No one could imagine in serious analysis, that you can restore, inject or synthesise more information from the recording by corrupting it further than the reproduction chain already has. "Corrupting" is what what old amps are best at.
You are really dealing with the psychological effects of increasing low order harmonic content - fooling us into a sense of heightened perception of incidental sound and detail that we find arresting - interesting. There are many designs that use this technique, tweaking the distortion "profile" deliberately to please the audiophile taste. Many old amplifiers using slow devices produced significant distortion inherently and though I don't have the HK 430 to witness it myself, I've owned a few of the breed over the years and don't doubt your discovery for a moment. You'll probably find more brands and models somewhere amongst the Quasi-comp. relics from the period where some examples of them sound pretty good too.
Or, you could simply buy an audiophile quality amp that will possibly replicate this effect and improve on it. They tend to be only built in small numbers and at probably high-end prices in the US, but not always so elsewhere.
For a commercial product that was conceived along this line of thinking, I'd be interested to see what you make of the DIY AKSA 55 model which many here took a liking to some years back. This is Bimo's clone archive with an interesting write up, measurements, designer comments etc:
https://anistardi.wordpress.com/2014/04/19/aksa-55-dalam-simulasi/
A lot of amusing discussion, argument and flak here: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/ever...ugh-thinking-let-us-see-schematics-forum.html
I should add that getting high end performance from simple designs isn't a matter of just banging a few random parts into a PCB as on an assembly line. There are a few critical matching, type selection and tweaking steps that get you to the audiophile level and very few manufacturers will give that IP away or even sell it. Some DIYs get pretty close by trial and error though. 🙂
You are really dealing with the psychological effects of increasing low order harmonic content - fooling us into a sense of heightened perception of incidental sound and detail that we find arresting - interesting. There are many designs that use this technique, tweaking the distortion "profile" deliberately to please the audiophile taste. Many old amplifiers using slow devices produced significant distortion inherently and though I don't have the HK 430 to witness it myself, I've owned a few of the breed over the years and don't doubt your discovery for a moment. You'll probably find more brands and models somewhere amongst the Quasi-comp. relics from the period where some examples of them sound pretty good too.
Or, you could simply buy an audiophile quality amp that will possibly replicate this effect and improve on it. They tend to be only built in small numbers and at probably high-end prices in the US, but not always so elsewhere.
For a commercial product that was conceived along this line of thinking, I'd be interested to see what you make of the DIY AKSA 55 model which many here took a liking to some years back. This is Bimo's clone archive with an interesting write up, measurements, designer comments etc:
https://anistardi.wordpress.com/2014/04/19/aksa-55-dalam-simulasi/
A lot of amusing discussion, argument and flak here: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/ever...ugh-thinking-let-us-see-schematics-forum.html
I should add that getting high end performance from simple designs isn't a matter of just banging a few random parts into a PCB as on an assembly line. There are a few critical matching, type selection and tweaking steps that get you to the audiophile level and very few manufacturers will give that IP away or even sell it. Some DIYs get pretty close by trial and error though. 🙂
OS, AndrewT, Ian and others,
I have built many overtures series, LA44xx, STK(V/XI), and others but my favorite (doesn't mean the best) chip amp is the TDA2030. The distortion is too high, but there is something that I like in its sound. I want to understand what I like about it, so I can clone it, but I couldn't find the schematic...
In my search, I found that Carlos DX also felt the same thing about this chip and was looking for the schematic. I think it was AndrewT who gave a schematic to Carlos (and it was there on the thread). But I didn't believe if the schematic was true, so Andrew may want to clarify...
Reason is I don't believe 3020 has that current mirror...
I have implemented special clean reference voltage for current sources, but not that "cascaded" input LTP transistors. It is the fact that chipamps are using quasi that I don't lose trust on this input stage, just like the H/K 340.
Do you guys have any info about this TDA3020 topology? I wanted to try/taste an amp (any good amp) with LTP input (cascaded) similar to the one claimed as TDA2030 schematic (I think Keantoken has one)...
I have built many overtures series, LA44xx, STK(V/XI), and others but my favorite (doesn't mean the best) chip amp is the TDA2030. The distortion is too high, but there is something that I like in its sound. I want to understand what I like about it, so I can clone it, but I couldn't find the schematic...
In my search, I found that Carlos DX also felt the same thing about this chip and was looking for the schematic. I think it was AndrewT who gave a schematic to Carlos (and it was there on the thread). But I didn't believe if the schematic was true, so Andrew may want to clarify...
Reason is I don't believe 3020 has that current mirror...
I have implemented special clean reference voltage for current sources, but not that "cascaded" input LTP transistors. It is the fact that chipamps are using quasi that I don't lose trust on this input stage, just like the H/K 340.
Do you guys have any info about this TDA3020 topology? I wanted to try/taste an amp (any good amp) with LTP input (cascaded) similar to the one claimed as TDA2030 schematic (I think Keantoken has one)...
Hi Jay
There were several manufacturers of those Pentawatt IC amplifiers. Telefunken published this datasheet which has a conceptual internal schematic but it's obviously not the full deal and none of them would give their secrets or manufacturing license details away for anyone to rip off. Add to that the close thermal coupling of the transistors and you have something you can't copy in discrete parts. You may get the distortion profile though 😀 TDA2030 ... - Datasheet Search Engine Download
There were several manufacturers of those Pentawatt IC amplifiers. Telefunken published this datasheet which has a conceptual internal schematic but it's obviously not the full deal and none of them would give their secrets or manufacturing license details away for anyone to rip off. Add to that the close thermal coupling of the transistors and you have something you can't copy in discrete parts. You may get the distortion profile though 😀 TDA2030 ... - Datasheet Search Engine Download
D1 and T6 form a current mirror. Notice they had to use darlington inputs just to achieve 1uA input current with those horrible early IC PNPs! Then they try their best to use only NPNs for the rest of the chip.
Ha! Thanks! That's a great find, Ian. So the "darlington" input is real. The current mirror (D1 and T6) is also real but at least using discrete diode.
That's the one that I don't want to copy 😀
That's the one that I don't want to copy 😀
Here's a CFP type LTP - no current mirror. As you can see, it's the Mission Cyrus 1 and this is Geoff Moss' draft from his Class A Amplifier Site hosted by ESP
yes and no
Quote:
I should add that getting high end performance from simple designs isn't a matter of just banging a few random parts into a PCB as on an assembly line. There are a few critical matching, type selection and tweaking steps that get you to the audiophile level and very few manufacturers will give that IP away or even sell it. Some DIYs get pretty close by trial and error though.
ok well in your opinion what is the amp or hi perf amplifier that your speaking of?
a few words about the H/K430 and its competitors...I have owned many older vintage pieces like the 430 but non play at this hi level of musical sounds none! they have that nice pleasing smooth distortion the harmon 430 does not! and i would not say that .25% total harmonic is a lot of distortion at least its not really audible in however they do it...H/K shtick is the perfect square wave it was the only amplifier that did it back in them days...there is no rounding off smoothing out BS and ...and IMO has the least amount of audible sound distortion out of any amplifier I have heard.... its what Robert Fulton used to make his speakers play like they do.....but he always said amplifiers are turkeys! and if he would still be alive we would have a better amplifier...Hence why i am doing this...I have some of the tools to hear it(speakers)
guys its not about measured specifications..... and are somewhat useless because music has thousands of waveforms going at any giving moment from dc to 100kc and beyond!.....the 430 is the best we have IMO at this moment
Lawrence
Quote:
I should add that getting high end performance from simple designs isn't a matter of just banging a few random parts into a PCB as on an assembly line. There are a few critical matching, type selection and tweaking steps that get you to the audiophile level and very few manufacturers will give that IP away or even sell it. Some DIYs get pretty close by trial and error though.
ok well in your opinion what is the amp or hi perf amplifier that your speaking of?
a few words about the H/K430 and its competitors...I have owned many older vintage pieces like the 430 but non play at this hi level of musical sounds none! they have that nice pleasing smooth distortion the harmon 430 does not! and i would not say that .25% total harmonic is a lot of distortion at least its not really audible in however they do it...H/K shtick is the perfect square wave it was the only amplifier that did it back in them days...there is no rounding off smoothing out BS and ...and IMO has the least amount of audible sound distortion out of any amplifier I have heard.... its what Robert Fulton used to make his speakers play like they do.....but he always said amplifiers are turkeys! and if he would still be alive we would have a better amplifier...Hence why i am doing this...I have some of the tools to hear it(speakers)
guys its not about measured specifications..... and are somewhat useless because music has thousands of waveforms going at any giving moment from dc to 100kc and beyond!.....the 430 is the best we have IMO at this moment
Lawrence
Last edited:
I sim several amplifiers and built them.
In simulator, I made H2 dominant amplifier, H3 dominant amplifier, very low THD in all audio frequency amplifier, something between very low THD and H2 dominant amplifier.
I demonstrated them to many people.
People who love or work in live music tend to choose H3 dominant amplifier.
People who listen music at home tend to choose H2 dominant amplifier or very low THD amplifier.
Their taste are different. 🙄
In simulator, I made H2 dominant amplifier, H3 dominant amplifier, very low THD in all audio frequency amplifier, something between very low THD and H2 dominant amplifier.
I demonstrated them to many people.
People who love or work in live music tend to choose H3 dominant amplifier.
People who listen music at home tend to choose H2 dominant amplifier or very low THD amplifier.
Their taste are different. 🙄
Last edited:
yes but I am not trying to reproduce a live sound that has been amplified
I am trying to reproduce live not amplified sound scaled to my home ....
Lawrence
Actually , most of the finalized designs here in the sold state forum.
The site's "honey badger" uses the local feedback TMC to become nearly
a part per million voltage stage.
Most of the LIN based (blameless) based designs , augmented with cascodes/
current mirrors and beta enhancement ..... can not do wrong (why they are "blameless").
The conversion between voltage and current is where you lose most linearity.
Lfets in a EF2 or a full BJT EF3 carries the perfection of a good voltage stage
right to the load (speaker).
No , the 430 is not the best. It is the base design for many 2000$+ "superamps" ...
once you add error correction , cascodes , and a over-designed audiophile power
supply.
Not to "push" the badger ... but it would be far more pleasing than 95% of the
OEM offerings with their profit "handicapped" cheap construction.
OS
Thanks. Users review of the Cyrus amp is similar to Sk8Ter's review of the HK430, even better I guess. The transistors are scarily unobtainable unfortunately 🙂 So in needs of redesign with different transistors I guess. This will be my first candidate for amp with the darlington/cascaded input transistors... Unless I found other candidate amps with higher power.
No, I don't think there is a "DIY version" of the Cyrus. This quasi topology seems to have a very small numbers of followers. The most popular is the Naim clones I believe. It is also of higher power than HK430 or Cyrus so might worth a look or investigation.
not necessarily looking for me power per say but something that will up the 430 musically...I Know I know...everybody talks topology or specs..I talk about how music plays
I still should build a few other amplifiers and I will to compare....
I guess since everybody keeps talking about this topology or that etc...what is it going to take to make a better amplifier musically?
Lawrence
- Status
- Not open for further replies.