Thanks guys. I believe you know why I asked.
I have many stocks of ancient and rare NPN-BJT, including the (Hitachi) 2SC1030 used in the H/K. May be I have all the other smaller transistors too...
That's why I'm interested in building quasi NPN-BJT so I can try out these transistors. But I usually do this within JLH (Have done it before with Quad 303 but class-A is imo better).
I prefer to call that "TASTE".
Problem is, sound that we hear is a synergy between 3 major components: preamp (which should be part of an amplifier), amplifier and speaker. Finding a good amplifier is like finding the best input stage (i.e. has little meaning).
Even in a smaller scope of an amplifier circuit, synergy between components is so critical to my ears. Synergy between the above 3 components is just "uncontrollable", too many permutations.
And because simulation has no meaning when the models do not represent the transistors being used, I prefer the "plug and play" method and use my ears to judge. There are clues, such as choosing low noise TR for the input, etc. etc. related to hfe, fT and Cob based on datasheet, but the real deal is in the listening (the datasheet is only a prediction).
Try replacing your C1030 with Sanken MT200 types, you may hear different sound, which may be an improvement, or the opposite...
Other "technical" modifications are just "academic". The transistors are the heart of an amplifier.
I'd recommend Sk8Ter try something like the original JLH69 Class A amp as a test project. Not the later altered and modified versions.
Why ? because it can be easily knocked together using point to point wiring if needed and it will give a good taste of a 'different' kind of a sound, totally unfatiguing and musical.
Its also speaker friendly as it is AC coupled, meaning that it can not damage speakers due to faults or construction errors.
I'd also suggest trying Panos excellent thread on seeing how much power, or more correctly voltage, you really need.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/mult...much-voltage-power-do-your-speakers-need.html
Why ? because it can be easily knocked together using point to point wiring if needed and it will give a good taste of a 'different' kind of a sound, totally unfatiguing and musical.
Its also speaker friendly as it is AC coupled, meaning that it can not damage speakers due to faults or construction errors.
I'd also suggest trying Panos excellent thread on seeing how much power, or more correctly voltage, you really need.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/mult...much-voltage-power-do-your-speakers-need.html
Jay I wish i had some of those extra c1030 bjt outputs but i wish i had a matched set! can you match me a set? pick the ones that have the highest gain and flattest curve 🙂
you can make the basic 430 amplifier but IMO you will be missing a lot this is a put together system if you will...my mentor told me he made just the amplifier section only and it was no where near as good as it was in this receiver...but mind you,,, not all of these are alike most dont play that well ..I have 12 of these receivers and let me tell ya only 3 are in the ball game ...the rest sound like slow vintage amusical bad color sounds bright etc etc...
Lawrence
Mooly class A biased amps IMO have a much different sound I have hearr a few tall square amplifier cannot remember the model ...I was not IMO a musical correct amplifier...
on another note I am really not much interested in just putting stuff together to SEE how something sounds...I want to put an amp together to be competitive with what i have and better it musically this is what the thread is all about ...now with that said do you think your amp will compete or maybe beat what i have...can we elaborate on the design etc...
GUYS I really appreciate your help
Lawrence
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been playing around today
modeling the 430 in LTspice does not come out correct no where near what the original transistors are
changing the bias in the sim i could not get it to bias up close to what i get with the real 430 ..im thinking way too different of transistors is my only clue...
I did play with the bias in the real 430 today and i will say that bumping it up to 30ma seems to bring up even more into where it should be and play like music!
I have never done this only set it to the manual which is about 19ma
again i cannot stress how good this amplifier really is in playing like the real thing wonderful
Lawrence
modeling the 430 in LTspice does not come out correct no where near what the original transistors are
changing the bias in the sim i could not get it to bias up close to what i get with the real 430 ..im thinking way too different of transistors is my only clue...
I did play with the bias in the real 430 today and i will say that bumping it up to 30ma seems to bring up even more into where it should be and play like music!
I have never done this only set it to the manual which is about 19ma
again i cannot stress how good this amplifier really is in playing like the real thing wonderful
Lawrence
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The JLH Class is a little different to many designs because it uses a single ended input stage (like mine) and not a differential input stage (like yours) and that in many ways is one of the most important differences.
You obviously love the sound of the Harman and that's great but the only way you will get to gauge how different topologies sound is to go and experiment and perhaps build one or two.
You obviously love the sound of the Harman and that's great but the only way you will get to gauge how different topologies sound is to go and experiment and perhaps build one or two.
SK₈TR, “large scale orchestral real musical instruments kinda music no studio recorded manipulated stuff ”
Well, I hate to burst your bubble, but every piece of music that one can commercially purchase for playback is most definitely studio-manipulated. Even when recording something live such as the mentioned pipe-organ choir recitals and such. Some of the time it is the recording engineer watching VU levels and very slowly (or more quickly in anticipation) adjusting up or down specific microphones for a more pleasing mix. Some of the adjustments are equipment characteristic: choice of microphones, choice of microphone positioning, choice of “back” (reflection) microphone volume levels, choice of blôody per-microphone preamplifier types, LEFT-RIGHT mixes, insertion of known-peak band-cut filters with soft slopes. All those microphones under and over pianos. All the ones in front of the Great, Swell, Positiv and Choir pipe organ boxes. The choice of digital or analog per-microphone delays to make the mix more rational and “present”. Even the orientation of stereo microphones and mutual-microphone shadowing has an effect.
The truth is that whatever you hear is far, far, far from what you would hear sitting in the concert hall in any seat of the venue. Doesn't matter whether they have a rubber coated styrofoam “head” with in-earhole microphones or whether they're using flying mikes overhead hanging on little black drop-down cables. The other factors then just dominate the recording experience.
THEN - if that (those things) weren't “enough”, then there is the work done by the “mastering” people who aim to coërce the engineered recording to fit into the realities of the medium being 'cut'. Doesn't matter whether 100% analog (as it necessarily was before digital), the hybrid approach, the mostly-digital or even the in-a-laptop-with-cool-software mechanism. There is definitely a quantifiable amount of “signal conditioning” that takes place.
Usually for CD and even DCD recordings, there is mild compression, mostly to raise up the quiet parts (at the risk of audibly amplifying the equipment noise floor…), to get a few more bits of resolution during quiet passages. And by the same token, there's absolutely always saturation quenching, to 'tame' the signal excursions that exceed the digital dynamic range space. Its a must. Doesn't matter whether you or I approve of it: no one is going to record something and leave giant loud crunchy clicks and bangs in the recording just because the incoming signal just happened to exceed dynamic recording range.
So…
I could repeat it, but my DIYAudio byline (signature line) more or less says it.
GoatGuy
Well, I hate to burst your bubble, but every piece of music that one can commercially purchase for playback is most definitely studio-manipulated. Even when recording something live such as the mentioned pipe-organ choir recitals and such. Some of the time it is the recording engineer watching VU levels and very slowly (or more quickly in anticipation) adjusting up or down specific microphones for a more pleasing mix. Some of the adjustments are equipment characteristic: choice of microphones, choice of microphone positioning, choice of “back” (reflection) microphone volume levels, choice of blôody per-microphone preamplifier types, LEFT-RIGHT mixes, insertion of known-peak band-cut filters with soft slopes. All those microphones under and over pianos. All the ones in front of the Great, Swell, Positiv and Choir pipe organ boxes. The choice of digital or analog per-microphone delays to make the mix more rational and “present”. Even the orientation of stereo microphones and mutual-microphone shadowing has an effect.
The truth is that whatever you hear is far, far, far from what you would hear sitting in the concert hall in any seat of the venue. Doesn't matter whether they have a rubber coated styrofoam “head” with in-earhole microphones or whether they're using flying mikes overhead hanging on little black drop-down cables. The other factors then just dominate the recording experience.
THEN - if that (those things) weren't “enough”, then there is the work done by the “mastering” people who aim to coërce the engineered recording to fit into the realities of the medium being 'cut'. Doesn't matter whether 100% analog (as it necessarily was before digital), the hybrid approach, the mostly-digital or even the in-a-laptop-with-cool-software mechanism. There is definitely a quantifiable amount of “signal conditioning” that takes place.
Usually for CD and even DCD recordings, there is mild compression, mostly to raise up the quiet parts (at the risk of audibly amplifying the equipment noise floor…), to get a few more bits of resolution during quiet passages. And by the same token, there's absolutely always saturation quenching, to 'tame' the signal excursions that exceed the digital dynamic range space. Its a must. Doesn't matter whether you or I approve of it: no one is going to record something and leave giant loud crunchy clicks and bangs in the recording just because the incoming signal just happened to exceed dynamic recording range.
So…
I could repeat it, but my DIYAudio byline (signature line) more or less says it.
GoatGuy
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I dissagree...maybe I should have been direct to what i meant..I have several records with NO MANIPULATION IN ANY MIXING BOOTH....only in the cutting that there was some level setting no compression boosting or studio effects....
These are the good recordings....now I have several that were minimally manipulated no compression etc....but still you have to have a good understanding of what the real thing sounds like....
my mentor took me to many opera's ....excellent seats good hall in chicago IL...called lyric opera house downtown.... up close and personal you get a real good idea what these instruments sound like there charter tone etc...all of the speech S sounds CH sound etc.when they sing....you can make your system resemble what you hear live but if your ref is studio recorded non live sounds you will never have a clue...
I agree I wish more media..was done better without studio effects or fixes..I want to hear it all!!
Lawrence
What I love is to hear my system play like or resemble what were hear live and the little 430 is tops....
I do agree that I could build a few but i have been so disappointed in my audio life with the so called holy grail products non has passed muster!...
I would rather build what you have and do it exactly like you say otherwise it wont be fair to evaluate as i am sure you have spent lots of time tweeking wire...caps connects etc...as i have
please tell me more about your amp do the musical instruments have proper tonal color brass has a certain peculiar sounds ....how does a piano sound??..
instead of only talking about distortion etc...I would like to talk about how musical instruments and there sounds .sounds with your amplifier
Lawrence
Tomorrow 😉 I was looking for a picture I posted some time ago that should give a good clue. And I can't find it.
A single ended input stage create H2 dominant. An LTP (differential) input stage can create H2 dominant, too. Usually, it compromise the THD for H2 dominant in an LTP input stage. If you decrease the THD, the H2 will be decrease too, and it will be H3 dominant.
H2 dominant amplifier sound good in middle frequency, here sometime called "tick" mid (very musical?).
Found it
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/soli...tortion-increase-frequency-3.html#post1557089
All I can say about the amp is that after years of 'other amps', this is the one that does it for me. It has you exploring the music, and not looking for music that only sounds good on a certain system.
I'm afraid that's not possible, sorry.
Lawrence, IME, trial and error will bring anyone NOWHERE near the holly grail. Luck just doesn't work in complex situation like in electronics...
If it cannot be formulated, then most probably it is far from the pinnacle. Because to reach that position, we need to know most of the mechanisms.
nice to see little piano in the room a good tool to hear then play some piano on the hifi 😀
you happen to have boards available? Parts list etc.?
Lawrence
Yes, I fully agree with that... What I couldn't understand is how you have 12 of the same receivers and only 3 works or in the "ball game"... Think about this... If I have 12 same amplifiers (not vintage with different capacitor qualities due to age), then I can challenge anyone if they can hear differences in any of the amps in a blind test.
Of course, transistor matching can make a difference (I have many relevant experiences), but I don't believe it is the case. As you said, you increased the bias and the quality improved. Well, now increase again and see if there is more improvement. Then increase again and see if there is improvement... And when you look back, you know that it was far behind that you can easily improve the performance...
And it is very probably that in the eye of the H/K designers, the 430 is not their best products. Small heatsink, small transformer, low bias, what do you expect?
If trial and error "tweak" can bring top result by luck, why not start with "good product"?
Many people (not really many) including Mooly I guess, don't believe in LTP input stage. I also have the same tendency, to think that LTP sucks. Even worse, I don't believe in class-B, but still trying to prove myself wrong...
What matter more is that it works very well with YOUR SPEAKER.
yeah I wish i had an answer
but out of my 12 only 3 play at the high level the others do not sound right...there is nothing wrong with them (technically) but do not pass muster in the musical ways...
I challenge you to build a 430 ...I would be willing to bet it will be your best sounding(musically speaking) amplifier and im not talking about being polite or nice sounding or warm or all that other BS I am talking about how real music sounds! ..better have a proper front end otherwise you will hear everything wrong with your system ..some might not like this but if your speakers suck it will show it too!
if your looking for something to warm over your not so great music best go get a nice warm tube amplifier 😀
anyways care to get rid of those 2sc1030's?
Lawrence
but out of my 12 only 3 play at the high level the others do not sound right...there is nothing wrong with them (technically) but do not pass muster in the musical ways...
I challenge you to build a 430 ...I would be willing to bet it will be your best sounding(musically speaking) amplifier and im not talking about being polite or nice sounding or warm or all that other BS I am talking about how real music sounds! ..better have a proper front end otherwise you will hear everything wrong with your system ..some might not like this but if your speakers suck it will show it too!
if your looking for something to warm over your not so great music best go get a nice warm tube amplifier 😀
anyways care to get rid of those 2sc1030's?
Lawrence
Okay, I'm putting the 430 in my project list (Actually I have downloaded the service manual when you mentioned about it in the other thread). How do you compare the 430 with the NAIM clones? Many people swear on those amps... I think Nigel Pearson (a member here) might have similar taste like you...
I have not many, and I buy not sell 😀 But I'm planning on using/trying the small metal transistors (XO3 case) from Siemen. It was an old product but surprisingly fT is 30MHz 😱
@Mooly: that is far too organised. I use my piano to hide the wires behind! Well actually wife's piano. My Kemble is at wife 1.0's house for the daughters to play. Soon will need to work out how to fit 2 pianos in the house!
I'm afraid not. The amp was all designed and constructed before I had ever used PC software to help in that kind of thing. It was all hand drawn and home etched boards. Real diy 😉
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