Amplifiers for the musical truth.

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Okay, I'm putting the 430 in my project list (Actually I have downloaded the service manual when you mentioned about it in the other thread). How do you compare the 430 with the NAIM clones? Many people swear on those amps... I think Nigel Pearson (a member here) might have similar taste like you...



I have not many, and I buy not sell 😀 But I'm planning on using/trying the small metal transistors (XO3 case) from Siemen. It was an old product but surprisingly fT is 30MHz 😱

oh crap I was hoping you would let some go 😀

built it....its that good
 
@Mooly: that is far too organised. I use my piano to hide the wires behind!

I can't be doing with wires everywhere (lol). I even considered having the speaker leads go under the floor and emerge at the destinations but they are not intrusively visible normally.

DSCN0499.JPG

Soon will need to work out how to fit 2 pianos in the house!

A duet (or is it a duel).
 
I can't be doing with wires everywhere (lol). I even considered having the speaker leads go under the floor and emerge at the destinations but they are not intrusively visible normally.
One day maybe, but being in a rental and having against one wall
PC (for communal stuff like netflix)
music server)
digital piano
Wii
TV
Bluray
Stereo
Sub
Heat gun

It's a bit full of wire 🙂

Oh and 12ft by 11ft and we need to be able to fit 6 in there. I really need somewhere bigger !

A duet (or is it a duel).
I do wonder. The daughters are better players than I am. They would probably love that.
 
Still playing with the 430

More Bias does not = better sound anymore it maybe more pleasing in ways (smeared) but nice but definitely not more musically correct ...can you say FAT!


still will be playing with it but these are my observations...

possibly less measurable distortion but sounding wrong in a lot of ways

so back to 53ma then
 
ok I asked but if you know about LTspice maybe i can just get some made form the software?

Lawrence

Post #312 in the thread has a zipped folder of the spice files but you can't make boards from that. They are diagrams for simulation, and as such not totally reflecting the exact real build in areas such as decoupling. If I recall correctly the servo isn't included either in those simulation files.

You would have to input the circuit diagram into something like DipTrace to do a board, or better still design it free hand (not autorouted) because that way you can get all the grounding and layout correct. All the component patterns have to be correct too.

Its a major task I'm afraid.
 
More Bias does not = better sound anymore it maybe more pleasing in ways (smeared) but nice but definitely not more musically correct ...can you say FAT!

still will be playing with it but these are my observations...

possibly less measurable distortion but sounding wrong in a lot of ways so back to 53ma then

Hahaha! You must be having good ears. Yes, you should notice/hear that kind of compromise.
 
Thanks guys. I believe you know why I asked.



I have many stocks of ancient and rare NPN-BJT, including the (Hitachi) 2SC1030 used in the H/K. May be I have all the other smaller transistors too...

That's why I'm interested in building quasi NPN-BJT so I can try out these transistors. But I usually do this within JLH (Have done it before with Quad 303 but class-A is imo better).



I prefer to call that "TASTE".



Problem is, sound that we hear is a synergy between 3 major components: preamp (which should be part of an amplifier), amplifier and speaker. Finding a good amplifier is like finding the best input stage (i.e. has little meaning).

Even in a smaller scope of an amplifier circuit, synergy between components is so critical to my ears. Synergy between the above 3 components is just "uncontrollable", too many permutations.

And because simulation has no meaning when the models do not represent the transistors being used, I prefer the "plug and play" method and use my ears to judge. There are clues, such as choosing low noise TR for the input, etc. etc. related to hfe, fT and Cob based on datasheet, but the real deal is in the listening (the datasheet is only a prediction).

Try replacing your C1030 with Sanken MT200 types, you may hear different sound, which may be an improvement, or the opposite...

Other "technical" modifications are just "academic". The transistors are the heart of an amplifier.

Jay whats the big deal with the Sanken MT200 ?
 
Jay whats the big deal with the Sanken MT200 ?

Every time I compare BJTs by ears (including original old BJT stuffs) in a circuit without adjustment, I always found that the Sanken and Toshiba (C5200) are both special. I don't know what properties are responsible for that (fT is obviously higher than old BJTs'), may be internal resistance causing higher bias I have never bothered to check...

But these 2 BJTs are unique, with the Sanken has the strength on "impact" and more immunity to RF/oscillation. In general it is easier to work with the Sanken than the Toshiba. But the Toshiba is my favorite, once it works...

I think what makes quasi-BJT "works" for you is the "impact" that makes bass slam sounds real and no "ringing" of the impulse. That's why I mentioned the Sanken (2SC2922 to be precise), not the Toshiba.

Again, every time I plug in various BJTs in the same circuit WITHOUT adjustments, both Sanken and Toshiba always win with big margin (I believe it is easily audible). The difference between the Sanken and Toshiba is much less... But I don't know if it will work so obviously or not in a quasi topology, because it could be just because newer BJTs have better PNP performance than older BJTs...
 
Every time I compare BJTs by ears (including original old BJT stuffs) in a circuit without adjustment, I always found that the Sanken and Toshiba (C5200) are both special. I don't know what properties are responsible for that (fT is obviously higher than old BJTs'), may be internal resistance causing higher bias I have never bothered to check...

But these 2 BJTs are unique, with the Sanken has the strength on "impact" and more immunity to RF/oscillation. In general it is easier to work with the Sanken than the Toshiba. But the Toshiba is my favorite, once it works...

I think what makes quasi-BJT "works" for you is the "impact" that makes bass slam sounds real and no "ringing" of the impulse. That's why I mentioned the Sanken (2SC2922 to be precise), not the Toshiba.

Again, every time I plug in various BJTs in the same circuit WITHOUT adjustments, both Sanken and Toshiba always win with big margin (I believe it is easily audible). The difference between the Sanken and Toshiba is much less... But I don't know if it will work so obviously or not in a quasi topology, because it could be just because newer BJTs have better PNP performance than older BJTs...

so if i substitute the old toshiba 2sc1030's for the sanken 2SC2922 ...there should be an improvement in sound quality(more musically correct?)

will they plug and play??

Lawrence
 
so if i substitute the old toshiba 2sc1030's for the sanken 2SC2922 ...there should be an improvement in sound quality(more musically correct?)

will they plug and play??

No, I don't know if there will be improvement or not. I don't have many complementary TO-3 steel transistors, but from what I have tried they are good as well.

Plug and play? With certain circuit, output stage replacement with much faster transistor like this may lead to oscillation. Opamp based amplifier is an example. Discrete darlington output could be another. Other circuits that I have tried had no issue with plug and play (but of course I'm ready with increasing compensation caps etc if it was expected to happen).

(more musically correct?)

This is a BIG question. You have mentioned that your amp is close to the real thing, i.e. very natural. But I have observed that when bass is "natural", mid/vocal tends to be not natural and when mid/vocal is natural (really natural), bass is so-so!

Quasi amp like yours tend to be natural in bass section, but I doubt the mid/vocal section. This is exactly why I prefer Toshiba to Sanken. This is my taste, vocal over bass. But the speaker must be "correct" so that natural midrange has great value. And I believe many people have never heard a natural midrange because of the speaker ruins it.
 
No, I don't know if there will be improvement or not. I don't have many complementary TO-3 steel transistors, but from what I have tried they are good as well.

Plug and play? With certain circuit, output stage replacement with much faster transistor like this may lead to oscillation. Opamp based amplifier is an example. Discrete darlington output could be another. Other circuits that I have tried had no issue with plug and play (but of course I'm ready with increasing compensation caps etc if it was expected to happen).



This is a BIG question. You have mentioned that your amp is close to the real thing, i.e. very natural. But I have observed that when bass is "natural", mid/vocal tends to be not natural and when mid/vocal is natural (really natural), bass is so-so!

Quasi amp like yours tend to be natural in bass section, but I doubt the mid/vocal section. This is exactly why I prefer Toshiba to Sanken. This is my taste, vocal over bass. But the speaker must be "correct" so that natural midrange has great value. And I believe many people have never heard a natural midrange because of the speaker ruins it.

Yes I totally agree but my system essentially is put together(designed) I use large fulton peremere which has IMO one of the very very very best of mid-ranges ...people like the quad 57 because of its fab midrange but what the quad and most electrostatics miss is the human quality with realistic sounding tonal colors electrostatics are very clean...but but with somewhat missing the human quality we hear live

what I am saying here is my system was voiced with this amplifier when being designed because of its totally musical character ..so from top to bottom this plays more correct like the real thing

most people poo poo it but IMO its tops! I wish there was a better "alternative" hence my postings

Lawrence
 
people like the quad 57 because of its fab midrange but what the quad and most electrostatics miss is the human quality with realistic sounding tonal colors electrostatics are very clean...but but with somewhat missing the human quality we hear live

Seems to me you know exactly what I mean with natural midrange.

what I am saying here is my system was voiced with this amplifier when being designed because of its totally musical character ..so from top to bottom this plays more correct like the real thing

most people poo poo it but IMO its tops! I wish there was a better "alternative" hence my postings

I'm very interested with your finding of the amp capability, BUT, the only barrier for me to try the H/K 430 right away is the fact that it is only 25W. I assume that I will be happier going with class-A if only for that power.
 
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