re:
Looks like Elmer's Foam Board, which (if Google gives me accurate information) uses a polystyrene core.
Maybe not flutes.
Looks like Elmer's Foam Board, which (if Google gives me accurate information) uses a polystyrene core.
aagas .
It looks like they spray some sort of speckled paint onto the surface of the panel, so it is difficult to identify the panel material.
Steve.
It looks like they spray some sort of speckled paint onto the surface of the panel, so it is difficult to identify the panel material.
Steve.
Hi Steve,
The exciters were still not so clear to me in the video. Are you sure you saw frog legs? I see what looks like some kind of round disk around the exciter, but I can't pick out the frog legs. Did you see them more clearly in a different video (or part)? Or does that disk look like some commercial exciter you know of?
Eric
Ah, I see it now. It could be one of these, which could look like the "disk" I see in the video. You guys are probably right about that.
I was thinking of these, which doesn't look so much like a disk.
I was thinking of these, which doesn't look so much like a disk.
I have understood the point of the frogs legs is to support the weight of the magnet. Hence less reason for a brace, right?
Eric
Alright guys, I may have an actual contribution. Basically, one of my goals for my vacation time was to drag my (unused) tower speakers and amp into the shop and do a showdown between my former system (for HT) and my DML project. It's one thing to say DML sounds great, but compared to what? These are Energy C5s, I bought them when Good Guys still existed; to me the Energy line sounded better than anything else they sold, including Klipsch (which they pushed). So I already know I think the Energy's sound great compared to other mid-grade speakers in A/B comparisons.
So now they are temporarily in my shop driven by their Denon HT amp. I deployed the panels next to them, supported by a sealed sub I built, presently with a 6.5" Tangband driver, but giving the sub just a trickle of life and the most serious testing with symphonic music that doesn't use much bass, to rule out the sub contribution. I tested with all sorts of music yesterday for the greater portion of the day, A-Bing back and forth between the chains. My conclusion was it's a toss-up, I could definitely anticipate what YouTube DML critics would say; siding with the C5s as superior.
Listening to the C5s for a while, my negative reaction when switching to DMLs was that they sounded flat. Listening to the panels for a while and then switching to C5s, my negative reaction was it sounded like taking a big field of sound and stuffing it into a box. As the volume goes up, the panels tend to sound better in comparison overall, as they just get bigger and bigger and the crispness of the C5s get harsh. But, my faith was definitely shaken, knowing that I couldn't say without reservation DML was better. Well, that changed this morning. I thought of one more test and honestly, had to force myself to do it because it was a pain to set up and I didn't have much hope. Turned out to be game over; DML wins.
Behold, the DML tweeter. lol.
My first exciter purchase was the Dayton coin exciters because they were cheap, and I wanted to see how far I could take them before spending more money. They are advertised as full-range, and I attached them to cardboard boxes of various configurations. They sounded magical, and with a sub, was pretty amazed at what I could achieve. The last coin creation before shelving them was an attempt at a small speaker (in picture). I re-sawed about 1/4" of xps on my bandsaw, slapped a coin on and attached to a box. The box made no difference in this case. But I listened to a rock CD and with sub support, was unbelievable how crisp, but extremely harsh and I went to bed feeling sea sick and ears ringing. That's the last I used them and moved on to the bigger exciters.
Well, I did have the thought that they might work as tweeters. In fact, I have a pair of mid-grade studio monitors, they support bi-amp, so I hooked up just the tweeter and measured the output on my phone with the Decibel X app. Compared to the monitor's tweeter, the HF poured off that little panel like a waterfall. So I later set the coin speakers up on my desk next to the XPS + thrusters on wall, but it didn't seem to work out. So I shelved them and almost threw them away because of the damage they did to my ears; no point in using them.
I didn't even think about it until this morning that I should try the "tweeters" in the competition. So I disconnected the top panels and used that wiring for the coins. End of story, that's what was missing. Adjusting the volume on the amp driving the "tweeters", I can make them sound very close to the C5s, such that now, when I A/B between the two, there is nothing missing when I switch to the panels, and the music jumps out of the box and into an enveloping field. Increase the volume it swells bigger, and then if I turn on my second sub, the Dayton HF 8" capable of ultra lows, it's epic.
What started out as a competition ended up more as a calibration session I guess. I needed a baseline. Wish I could keep the C5s in here but just takes up too much space. The reason I failed to integrate them as tweeters before Is I had no reference. I had the volume way to high for one, and didn't know what I was shooting for. So starting with just the thruster panels and A-Bing, slowly turn up the "tweeter" and then slowly turn up the sub. At a moderate volume that sounds very close to the C5s, when I turn off everything but the "tweeter" it's very faint. Those tiny 5$ coins will apparently pace the rest of the system up to very high volume levels. Of course, had I been smart, I would have already known this when I measured the tweeter on my monitors, and instead of thinking, "oh wow, look at how much HF the coin exciter makes compared to a regular tweeter", I should have been thinking about how little coin volume I needed for it to become a tweeter.
So now they are temporarily in my shop driven by their Denon HT amp. I deployed the panels next to them, supported by a sealed sub I built, presently with a 6.5" Tangband driver, but giving the sub just a trickle of life and the most serious testing with symphonic music that doesn't use much bass, to rule out the sub contribution. I tested with all sorts of music yesterday for the greater portion of the day, A-Bing back and forth between the chains. My conclusion was it's a toss-up, I could definitely anticipate what YouTube DML critics would say; siding with the C5s as superior.
Listening to the C5s for a while, my negative reaction when switching to DMLs was that they sounded flat. Listening to the panels for a while and then switching to C5s, my negative reaction was it sounded like taking a big field of sound and stuffing it into a box. As the volume goes up, the panels tend to sound better in comparison overall, as they just get bigger and bigger and the crispness of the C5s get harsh. But, my faith was definitely shaken, knowing that I couldn't say without reservation DML was better. Well, that changed this morning. I thought of one more test and honestly, had to force myself to do it because it was a pain to set up and I didn't have much hope. Turned out to be game over; DML wins.
Behold, the DML tweeter. lol.
My first exciter purchase was the Dayton coin exciters because they were cheap, and I wanted to see how far I could take them before spending more money. They are advertised as full-range, and I attached them to cardboard boxes of various configurations. They sounded magical, and with a sub, was pretty amazed at what I could achieve. The last coin creation before shelving them was an attempt at a small speaker (in picture). I re-sawed about 1/4" of xps on my bandsaw, slapped a coin on and attached to a box. The box made no difference in this case. But I listened to a rock CD and with sub support, was unbelievable how crisp, but extremely harsh and I went to bed feeling sea sick and ears ringing. That's the last I used them and moved on to the bigger exciters.
Well, I did have the thought that they might work as tweeters. In fact, I have a pair of mid-grade studio monitors, they support bi-amp, so I hooked up just the tweeter and measured the output on my phone with the Decibel X app. Compared to the monitor's tweeter, the HF poured off that little panel like a waterfall. So I later set the coin speakers up on my desk next to the XPS + thrusters on wall, but it didn't seem to work out. So I shelved them and almost threw them away because of the damage they did to my ears; no point in using them.
I didn't even think about it until this morning that I should try the "tweeters" in the competition. So I disconnected the top panels and used that wiring for the coins. End of story, that's what was missing. Adjusting the volume on the amp driving the "tweeters", I can make them sound very close to the C5s, such that now, when I A/B between the two, there is nothing missing when I switch to the panels, and the music jumps out of the box and into an enveloping field. Increase the volume it swells bigger, and then if I turn on my second sub, the Dayton HF 8" capable of ultra lows, it's epic.
What started out as a competition ended up more as a calibration session I guess. I needed a baseline. Wish I could keep the C5s in here but just takes up too much space. The reason I failed to integrate them as tweeters before Is I had no reference. I had the volume way to high for one, and didn't know what I was shooting for. So starting with just the thruster panels and A-Bing, slowly turn up the "tweeter" and then slowly turn up the sub. At a moderate volume that sounds very close to the C5s, when I turn off everything but the "tweeter" it's very faint. Those tiny 5$ coins will apparently pace the rest of the system up to very high volume levels. Of course, had I been smart, I would have already known this when I measured the tweeter on my monitors, and instead of thinking, "oh wow, look at how much HF the coin exciter makes compared to a regular tweeter", I should have been thinking about how little coin volume I needed for it to become a tweeter.
A quick addendum, I realize that most of you don't use thrusters, and it seems from measurements posted the 25w exciters are capable of solid HF and so you may not have the problem I did. But, if there's any doubt, a pair of DLM tweeters is 10$ plus a scrap of cardboard or foam. Or, it may be that a thruster plus a coin is a viable alternative to one full range driver. I believe I recall someone in this thread saying that the weak frames requiring a brace is a tradeoff for the better frequency response they give. I still plan to make the birch plywood speakers with those in the coming weeks to that will be the next showdown.
Yes, you are correct. I didn't think of that. Nobody seems to like the frog leg system and I haven't seen any proof that they actually work or bring any advantages. I think the frog legs causes the exciter to fight against itself, so there must be some cancellation and loss of energy in such a closed system.
@jmproject - thank you for sharing this (detailed) comparison. Very informative and noteworthy indeed.
Unless you have coated the XPS in epoxy or something similar the hf will roll off early, no matter what exciter you use.
Good DML panels should give a very natural live sound, as if the singer or instruments are actually in the room with you.
Very few (if any)other types of speakers can do this, as good as DMLs.
Steve.
My exciters came with frog legs attached, the problem with them is similar to the hdn8 exciter.
The plastic casing makes too much noise.
These noises also travel along the legs onto the panel.
I did not examine the video too closely, but just quickly guessed that they used frog leg exciters .
What confused me was what looks like some sort of ring or plate that the exciter feet are attached to ?
Maybe this helps prevent so much noise travelling along the legs to the panel ?
Or is it just my eyes playing me up 🤓
Steve.
On closer examination I think there is no ring it seems more like a reflection of the feet on the reflective surface?
Steve.
Steve.
I guess when I look at these plots I see a different picture.
I prefer the 24inch plot.
It has a good strong response from about 150hz to about 8k.
If you EQ the three humps with notch filters , you would end up with a almost ruler flat response.
Yes I did hold up a ruler up to the plot to see.
Although I would probably try to remove these humps without EQ first.
Is the heavy roll off above 6k also to do with the sound card filtering problem?
Steve.
@spedge
I think no one is surprised that the larger plate shows a good frequency response. But I'm surprised how small the difference is, and when considering the time dimension as well, to me it does indicate that larger plates are generally a waste of time. A few dB difference in a few bumps here and there will matter a lot less than the prolonged impulse response a larger plate will have.
To me the HF roll-of looks good, but I do think flat response sounds too harsh. Can be bearable on lower levels, but as soon as you turn it up a bit it is way too much.
I think no one is surprised that the larger plate shows a good frequency response. But I'm surprised how small the difference is, and when considering the time dimension as well, to me it does indicate that larger plates are generally a waste of time. A few dB difference in a few bumps here and there will matter a lot less than the prolonged impulse response a larger plate will have.
To me the HF roll-of looks good, but I do think flat response sounds too harsh. Can be bearable on lower levels, but as soon as you turn it up a bit it is way too much.
I bought a pair of 25mm with frogs legs. Reason pretty obvious. They must dampen the exciter but the dml rabbit hole arises as usual. What panel material would benefit. Also do they dampen and to what extent. They offer a super frog now - a group of 4 exciters. Actually for other reasons the 19mm ones might have been a better bet in my case.
😉 As I don't like spending money blind I'm currently only interested in rather small panels so the 5w rating doesn't bother me. I am interested in panel materials, size and shape.
I did find the video channel that contains the one on the dml that may or may not use frogs legs interesting. More so other videos on it.
🙂 When will I actually be able to try some ideas - still not entirely clear but getting there slowly. Too slowly really.
😉 As I don't like spending money blind I'm currently only interested in rather small panels so the 5w rating doesn't bother me. I am interested in panel materials, size and shape.
I did find the video channel that contains the one on the dml that may or may not use frogs legs interesting. More so other videos on it.
🙂 When will I actually be able to try some ideas - still not entirely clear but getting there slowly. Too slowly really.
Leob.
What is a large plate, and what is a small plate.
I have used small panels down to 3 or 4inches.
Large panels up to 4ft x 8ft , where is the transition between the two, what can be used and what cannot be used.
The efficiency of the panel in the low end ,will drop off somewhat as you move to the side of the panel , especially if it has been reduced in width.
The harshness in the top end can be caused by many things, and cured, does anyone listen to a word I say ?
Steve.
What is a large plate, and what is a small plate.
I have used small panels down to 3 or 4inches.
Large panels up to 4ft x 8ft , where is the transition between the two, what can be used and what cannot be used.
The efficiency of the panel in the low end ,will drop off somewhat as you move to the side of the panel , especially if it has been reduced in width.
The harshness in the top end can be caused by many things, and cured, does anyone listen to a word I say ?
Steve.