Flicking between my fullrange drivers and panels last night, fullrange drivers " yeah that's nice full sound I could live with these" switch to my panels " bloody hell these things are so alive and dynamic" the bass goes as low if not lower than the MTL fullrangers , maybe there is a touch more warmth in the upper mid bass, but that can smear the sound I find.
Coloration is another word for distorsion... A perfect HiFi transducer is supposed to deliver what you feed in. Unfortunately, the vibrations of the panels may introduce some "intrinsic waves" generated by te panels there aren't in the input signal. These "additional" vibrations change the harmonic distribution of frequencies giving "another color" or timbre to the reproduced audio signal.
That is exactly what I said. I would add, however, that studio monitors are designed to be as faithful as possible to the original recording and mix, if obviously used with the parameters provided by the manufacturers. This is why all professionals use them to make the music we all listen to.
I never said that everyone should prefer the listening experience they provide. I even said the exact opposite, and that everyone has a perfect right to prefer to listen to the music on the transducers they like the most.
I am a proponent, having done some recording and mixing, of the most faithful reproduction possible, but this is only for me and for those who prefer HiFi.
I have musician friends who are much more sensitive to the interpretation of a musical performance than to the means of reproduction used: a simple car radio can be enough to make them happy if the interpretation speaks to them!
Yes, and sometimes adding a sub improves also greatly the whole reproduction, as I noted when I did my tests with several panels. But here I faced another suite of issues ! First, it’s not easy to couple different technologies of transducers (here for exampe ribbon, DML and dynamic). Then, the calibration and the filtering of each frequency range was a nightmare. Plus, the multi-amplification and the bunch of links needed increases the cost and the complexity of the installation.
Anyway, I used a digital filter and try a 6 outputs amplifier to simplify somewhat the whole thing, but I didn’t improve really the perceived sound compared with my reference monitors which were much more easy to implement in the listening room…
And, obviously I was very far from to the initial goal who was the use of ONE panel as a full range transducer !
I know. 🙂
Thank you for your take on what that colouration on a DM panel. I suppose that's why Oliver Göbel blocked/tried to absorb those '"intrinsic waves" generated by te panels there aren't in the input signal,' by damping the edges. He used that damping in such a way to leave the panel edges somewhat open, that is, leaving the edges enclosed in synthetic rubber.
@Sandasnickaren too had left the edges open to air, knowingly or unknowingly, as shown in his post #8,142.
Actually, all are dynamic transducers. They have to vibrate, always to and fro, rarely sideways. Any sideways movement of those transducers adds "colouration."
Yes, it cannot be done. A full range driver, even if there's one, will have trouble with the membrane/panel, for its size and that all materials are sound insulators one way or another. But, maybe we can try with two panels, adjacent to each other, but driven with separate drivers, one for the lows, and the other for the mids and highs. You might need a tweeter/super tweeter, if you have very good hearing, but for those above 40, maybe those two panels would be enough. If one's hearing is that bad, maybe one panel with one exciter would be enough. Age related hearing loss.
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A lot of exciters have peaks in the 1-2khz range which can make them sound more alive and dynamic. Are those Mark Audio full rangers?
I didn't feel my panels need a sub, I tuned my panels by ear for bass and midrange and added the "fast" ribbon to fill out the top end and sharpen up the stereo image, sounds like you over complicated things.
I have a musician in the family. My eldest daughter is a composer and musician ( piano and flute to performance levels, not so much now as she is a full time mum ). She went to LIPA in the UK for her degree and after the first year decided she needed a pair of monitors for home and, as she was very young and her old man had built a lot of electrostatic speakers ( after a long line of conventional speakers and open baffles) she asked me to come along to help her choose. A very kind technician at LIPA had given her a list of three brands he thought were very good for her to audition. I can't remember the third brand for the life of me but Yamaha and Genelec were on the list. I was intrigued as all three were recommended and marketed as 'flat response' monitors and I wanted to hear the difference between my electrostatics and professional flat response monitors. My plan was to buy a pair for myself to guide me in this crazy hobby I had spent years on.
So... we get to the shop and audition all three on music with vocals, piano, flute as this was her primary interest. All three were flat response monitors and came complete with their individual printouts which were as promised impressively flat frequency responses. All three sounded different. Not is a subtle way. The Yamaha's were bright, the forgotten brand was uninvolving, the Genelec's sounded the most natural of the three so we bought those. I didn't bother buying a pair because with that degree of difference between three flat response monitors it was clear to me that they didn't provide me with a useful reference point after all.
Burnt
They probably do, which is no bad thing in my book, speakers that measure flat are normally lifeless. Yes mark Audio Ms 11 also got the alpair 5.3's and a pair of chr70.3 in a mini tower, a pair of Snell E's and a pair of Snell J's , none so far can live with my panels.
You can get DML's to play from 100hz to 20khz with a small degree of eq. Some builder posting here achieve 20khz without eq by careful chioce of and treatment of materials. I use subs with DML's because bass is more difficult, although not impossible to achieve, and the use of subs ( plural) mean you can use Geddes technique of exploiting room nodes. You certainly have had a struggle implementing DML's and maybe you need to simplify your chain further?
Burnt.
Flat frequency response?
How would anyone know that 'the signal going into the device is the same across the entire frequency spectrum as the signal coming out'? How could anyone know the quality of what goes in? All three sounded different, you said.
Sure, I agree.
But, how do you tune the panel by ear for bass and midrange? By moving the exciter here and there? By adding or subtracting something? You walk a few meters away and come back to adjust something?
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Yes with the ms 11 's but didn't like the outcome the 5.3's and CHR's definitely don't need a tweeter , neither the 11's really they just sound a bit fuller which might give the impression of missing top end .