Thank you all for your response. I've read your blog Doede, thank you. I guess the UcConditioner fits to the second way/scenario you decribe. I'm actually wondering if the UcConditioner fits to my DDDAC PSU application. As there were other people running it with DDDAC PSU I thought it would work for me too, but I think there is a dedicated high current 3.3V PSU needed to use the conditioner.
I'm feeding the FifoPi at the moment from a choke modded DDDAC PSU with following LT3042 / Cap Board, so I think the FifoPi power should be not that bad. Soundwise I'm very pleased. Let's see if I can find a proper solution / application for the conditioner.
I'm feeding the FifoPi at the moment from a choke modded DDDAC PSU with following LT3042 / Cap Board, so I think the FifoPi power should be not that bad. Soundwise I'm very pleased. Let's see if I can find a proper solution / application for the conditioner.
...and now a Retro-question
I have assembled a secondary DDDac from older scrap-boards consisting of an old-style MB and 2 old-style DAC-boards. It's functional and plays okay.
I am now looking for methods to optimize this DAC without breaking the bank...just for the fun of it, and to reuse some leftover components.
When these first-gen boards were in fashion people inserted Tentlabs regulators and the Pin20/CCS upgrade.
Doing this will very soon be more expensive than buying new DAC-boards... Unless some kind souls will sell me 4 * 8V Tentlabs shunts for a fair price ;-)
Another possible upgrade could be the LF33 regulator on the Red-MB. It seems many are replacing the LF50 regulator on the Blue-boards (my self including very soon), which takes care of power for the HCT244 and 74VHC164/74VHC74 chips.
The Red-board doesn't have a HCT244, but the 74VHC164/74VHC74 chips seems to be fed 3.3V from the LF33.
Does anyone think this is worthwhile?
I do plan to use a standard DDDac 12V PSU (perhaps with a choke), a KALI+Isolator board supplied through a LDOVR or other good 5V regulator, good I/V resistors and either Duelund Caps or maybe some Cinemag 15/15B... so i'll guess it's not going to be a complete slugg. I plan to use it in my living room with my secondary hifi-system (mostly used for modern pop/dance-music by my daughter, sigh!!!). I'm sure Ariana Grande and Billie Eilish will sound so much better through a capable NOS-Dac... don't you agree ;-)
I have assembled a secondary DDDac from older scrap-boards consisting of an old-style MB and 2 old-style DAC-boards. It's functional and plays okay.
I am now looking for methods to optimize this DAC without breaking the bank...just for the fun of it, and to reuse some leftover components.
When these first-gen boards were in fashion people inserted Tentlabs regulators and the Pin20/CCS upgrade.
Doing this will very soon be more expensive than buying new DAC-boards... Unless some kind souls will sell me 4 * 8V Tentlabs shunts for a fair price ;-)
Another possible upgrade could be the LF33 regulator on the Red-MB. It seems many are replacing the LF50 regulator on the Blue-boards (my self including very soon), which takes care of power for the HCT244 and 74VHC164/74VHC74 chips.
The Red-board doesn't have a HCT244, but the 74VHC164/74VHC74 chips seems to be fed 3.3V from the LF33.
Does anyone think this is worthwhile?
I do plan to use a standard DDDac 12V PSU (perhaps with a choke), a KALI+Isolator board supplied through a LDOVR or other good 5V regulator, good I/V resistors and either Duelund Caps or maybe some Cinemag 15/15B... so i'll guess it's not going to be a complete slugg. I plan to use it in my living room with my secondary hifi-system (mostly used for modern pop/dance-music by my daughter, sigh!!!). I'm sure Ariana Grande and Billie Eilish will sound so much better through a capable NOS-Dac... don't you agree ;-)
Most sensitive is the entire BCK signal chain after reclocker. If you place an isolator after it, noise level on both sides of the isolator is critical too. Isolators after KALI is not a free lunch, to the date there are no really good isolation IC for clocks on the market independent of their price tag and technology used. There are two possible problems with KALI: is that most of the production time they used NDK SD XO, and probably it can't drive big capacitive load (some people complained here). I can't confirm the latest, never tried to drive a big capacitive load from it.
So,
1. If your source is not noisy or has an internal isolator (WaveIO), it's better to try KALI with a good PSU, short connectors to DAC, good grounding, and without an isolator at all. If the source is very noisy (RPI, etc.), anyway it's better to place an isolator before KALI.
2. If you really hear problems with sound without an isolator after KALI, most probably the output of KALI can't drive so big load, it's better to try to place a simple buffer IC between KALI and DAC than use the isolator as a buffer to PCM1794. 244 IC have both advantages and disadvantages on new DAC, but it’s definitely acts as a buffer, simple buffer IC for old board is almost ideal solution here. DIP-version on a small piece of breadboard is Ok. A very good voltage regulator is needed here, for this IC, not on the old DAC motherboard. Anyway, if you decide to place an isolator after KALI, it is very sensitive to the quality of power supply, invest into it.
3. check oscillators on KALI board with magnification glass, if they are NDK SD, you can really achieve better results with an upgrade to SDA. Two NDK SDA XO are cheaper than one good voltage regulator, but it's really hard to replace XO on KALI. Hint: almost anyone fixing mobile phones and laptops can easily perform this for you, just ask people around. It's really worth. New oscillators must be the same frequencies as used on KALI.
4. In my point of view, the upgrade to better LDO on the old motherboard is “nice to have”, it can give some improvement too, but it's not in the most critical chain.
So,
1. If your source is not noisy or has an internal isolator (WaveIO), it's better to try KALI with a good PSU, short connectors to DAC, good grounding, and without an isolator at all. If the source is very noisy (RPI, etc.), anyway it's better to place an isolator before KALI.
2. If you really hear problems with sound without an isolator after KALI, most probably the output of KALI can't drive so big load, it's better to try to place a simple buffer IC between KALI and DAC than use the isolator as a buffer to PCM1794. 244 IC have both advantages and disadvantages on new DAC, but it’s definitely acts as a buffer, simple buffer IC for old board is almost ideal solution here. DIP-version on a small piece of breadboard is Ok. A very good voltage regulator is needed here, for this IC, not on the old DAC motherboard. Anyway, if you decide to place an isolator after KALI, it is very sensitive to the quality of power supply, invest into it.
3. check oscillators on KALI board with magnification glass, if they are NDK SD, you can really achieve better results with an upgrade to SDA. Two NDK SDA XO are cheaper than one good voltage regulator, but it's really hard to replace XO on KALI. Hint: almost anyone fixing mobile phones and laptops can easily perform this for you, just ask people around. It's really worth. New oscillators must be the same frequencies as used on KALI.
4. In my point of view, the upgrade to better LDO on the old motherboard is “nice to have”, it can give some improvement too, but it's not in the most critical chain.
What happened to my post!? It was there yesterday... did someone delete it? Is diyAudio loosing posts?
Hard to give recommendations where to start and for all where to STOP, when making a second (or third) DDDAC. It is all about expectation management.
Never forget, the original DAC with RED Mainboard, non tweaked 12V supply and one original DECK, driven by the WaveIO (even at USB Power) with a good quality coupling capacitor (Like an Auricap or something) already sounded very good. The character of the DAC (Analog and natural sound) was always there. All the tweaks and improvements after that are 200% worth it, but... it is all expectation management...
You want the best possible - well Yuri made very valid comments. Yes all the tweaks covered over the years also. Extreme care on power supplies, multiple Decks (we have seen up to 15) super clocks, output transformers, UltraCaps etc etc. (Nice hobby right?)
You "just" want have a use for your old "Crap" Boards lying around? Just would like to have some nice music in the attic, living room, work shop, home office? I would not over engineer it and just take the basic stuff you have lying around and at least take a half way decent power supply for the 12 Volt (not a wall socket thing used for charging your whatever) - Only thing I would do is use a good coupling capacitor.
So, as I am writing this, I am in my "Office" - Of course I like some music playing here. I am enjoying it 100% - but compared to my equipment down in the "man cave" it is relative normal and still very enjoyable but MUCH nicer sound than coming straight from my PC sound card or even a PI with a DAC hat. You do NOT need expensive High End for that to beat that 😉
so what it is I have (so you have a reference what I am talking about)
My "Power DAC":
USB in with WaveIO, USB powered
Red Board with one old deck (no tweaks)
7812 kind of 12V "home brew" power supply
balanced output through a 24 step switched attenuator
2x Hypex UCD 180 power amp
2x B&W 685 book shelf speakers (that is indeed where they are)
1x B&W Subwoofer AS1 active subwoofer (100€ in eBay)
Except for the 685 speakers, all that stuff I had lying around or bought used and cheap in eBay. Also this way the hobby makes fun and produces a satisfying result 🙂
Just my 2 cents worth....
and here is a busy picture where you can find (you have to look good...) the equipment I use there 😀
Never forget, the original DAC with RED Mainboard, non tweaked 12V supply and one original DECK, driven by the WaveIO (even at USB Power) with a good quality coupling capacitor (Like an Auricap or something) already sounded very good. The character of the DAC (Analog and natural sound) was always there. All the tweaks and improvements after that are 200% worth it, but... it is all expectation management...
You want the best possible - well Yuri made very valid comments. Yes all the tweaks covered over the years also. Extreme care on power supplies, multiple Decks (we have seen up to 15) super clocks, output transformers, UltraCaps etc etc. (Nice hobby right?)
You "just" want have a use for your old "Crap" Boards lying around? Just would like to have some nice music in the attic, living room, work shop, home office? I would not over engineer it and just take the basic stuff you have lying around and at least take a half way decent power supply for the 12 Volt (not a wall socket thing used for charging your whatever) - Only thing I would do is use a good coupling capacitor.
So, as I am writing this, I am in my "Office" - Of course I like some music playing here. I am enjoying it 100% - but compared to my equipment down in the "man cave" it is relative normal and still very enjoyable but MUCH nicer sound than coming straight from my PC sound card or even a PI with a DAC hat. You do NOT need expensive High End for that to beat that 😉
so what it is I have (so you have a reference what I am talking about)
My "Power DAC":
USB in with WaveIO, USB powered
Red Board with one old deck (no tweaks)
7812 kind of 12V "home brew" power supply
balanced output through a 24 step switched attenuator
2x Hypex UCD 180 power amp
2x B&W 685 book shelf speakers (that is indeed where they are)
1x B&W Subwoofer AS1 active subwoofer (100€ in eBay)
Except for the 685 speakers, all that stuff I had lying around or bought used and cheap in eBay. Also this way the hobby makes fun and produces a satisfying result 🙂
Just my 2 cents worth....
and here is a busy picture where you can find (you have to look good...) the equipment I use there 😀
Attachments
Thank you Yuri and Doede.
I have two "free" diyinhk isolator-boards lying around and was thinking to place such board in between the RP and the KALI., not after the KALI. Sorry about this confusion. I had this up and running some time ago, but removed it after experiencing some dropouts in the stream. I think the problem turned out to be something completely different.
If I understand you correctly it might give a little improvement replacing the Red-Board LF33 regulator, but it is actually clean power to the (on the Red-board missing) HCT244 which gives most of the LF50 regulator replacement improvements.
Adding a 244 IC might be a good and relatively easy addition.... @Doede: The HCT244 seems to require 5V. Was that why you decided to add the LF50 on the newer boards and also change voltage for the 74VHC164/74VHC74 chips which seems to take both 3.3V or 5V?
I have two "free" diyinhk isolator-boards lying around and was thinking to place such board in between the RP and the KALI., not after the KALI. Sorry about this confusion. I had this up and running some time ago, but removed it after experiencing some dropouts in the stream. I think the problem turned out to be something completely different.
If I understand you correctly it might give a little improvement replacing the Red-Board LF33 regulator, but it is actually clean power to the (on the Red-board missing) HCT244 which gives most of the LF50 regulator replacement improvements.
Adding a 244 IC might be a good and relatively easy addition.... @Doede: The HCT244 seems to require 5V. Was that why you decided to add the LF50 on the newer boards and also change voltage for the 74VHC164/74VHC74 chips which seems to take both 3.3V or 5V?
no, the 5 Volt was for the simple reason that with multiple decks it turned out that the digital headroom for the I2S signals was better (on the red board) with 5 volt rather than 3,3 volt
later on (blue board) I introduced the HCT244 as selector between two I2S sources and also as buffer for more decks... and yes the LF50 staid of course
with one deck, I see no need for any 244 or LF50. Also "Judging" your final application for this DAC I admit.
If you have a shunt 3,3 or 5 volt lying around just put it in, it does a small nice extra. If you start buying stuff, you might as well go on and end up with .... what you have in your main DAC 😀
later on (blue board) I introduced the HCT244 as selector between two I2S sources and also as buffer for more decks... and yes the LF50 staid of course
with one deck, I see no need for any 244 or LF50. Also "Judging" your final application for this DAC I admit.
If you have a shunt 3,3 or 5 volt lying around just put it in, it does a small nice extra. If you start buying stuff, you might as well go on and end up with .... what you have in your main DAC 😀
I still play with the first generation DDDAC till my 4-deck is finished and love it!
By the way, I have left 8x Maxwell capacitors Supercapacitor 2.7V 325F,
which I will going to use. If someeone have intrest, sent a pm to. Small price.
By the way, I have left 8x Maxwell capacitors Supercapacitor 2.7V 325F,
which I will going to use. If someeone have intrest, sent a pm to. Small price.
Thanks Doede. That was really good info. I now inserted a LDOVR 5V instead of the original 3.3V LF33. I didn't really just had one laying around, but switching to a quality 5V reg. made it possible to power the Isolator Clean-side + KALI from this as well, saving me a PSU 🙂
Now, the LDOVR 5V was bought for my main-rig so now a need a new one there. Perhaps I should spend the money for a Tentlab shunt but this brings me to a new question...
What is the Doede versions? I knew about the Doede 8V version, but assumed that was just a special 8V reg. made by request from Doede for optional use on the Red mainboards.
But I now see a Doede 3.3V version, and from another answer you made lately, maybe also a 5V version, on direct request??? There are both a Doede 3.3V version and a regular one so I assume there must be a difference.
Really sorry if this has been answered before but I couldn't find it.
Best is to ask Guido Tent directly... the 3,3 v is for the DAC boards I believe.
What you need is a normal 5 volt version. If it can be specked down to 100mA total that would be good.
What you need is a normal 5 volt version. If it can be specked down to 100mA total that would be good.
My friend bubu200 is apparently Covid19 isolation-bored and wants us to play along the on the Choke-trend? We currently both uses standard DDDac 12V PSU's. He now bought us some Monacor LSI-100T Chokes.
Is is correctly understood that installing the 10mH Choke + 1Ohm resistor instead of the R2 is the best way to do this tweak, while keeping the fuse?
Yes, keep the fuse, don't cut any traces. Just remove the resistor and connect the choke + resistor instead. You should also increase the size of the second capacitor to avoid any tendency for oscillation of the (C)LC filter, so the regulator is relieved from providing any damping for the (C)LC.
Nice mbrennwa...
So the "second capacitor" is that the C3 (4.700uF) shown here on page 4 of the schematics?
http://www.audio-creativeshop.nl/wp-content/uploads/dddac1794pbt_nos_ver44.pdf
So the "second capacitor" is that the C3 (4.700uF) shown here on page 4 of the schematics?
http://www.audio-creativeshop.nl/wp-content/uploads/dddac1794pbt_nos_ver44.pdf
what is the current consumption for the analog part of PCM1794 for one channel? (for tentlab board dac board)
In datasheet PCM1794 Icc analog supply curret for fs 192kHz is 37 mA. Tentlabs sell shunt regulator for dddac with current 30mA. You tell 100mA. I Dont understand.
Dddac 1794 implementation is not as in the data sheet and the embedded shunt is specially made for dddac. So believe me it is 100mA. There is no sense in comparing with anything else
The 30 mA is the 3,3 volt version and not the embedded analog 8 volt.
The 30 mA is the 3,3 volt version and not the embedded analog 8 volt.