I may have missed it; but what is the voltage sensitivity you are anticipating with this, from 300Hz to 20KHz?
Is it 92-93dB/2,83V?
Is it 92-93dB/2,83V?
Thank you for these beautiful images - brings back memories from some 35 years ago!
Nice to see this place well preserved!
In fact, I haven't considered it seriously yet since this will be a 3/4-way active system.
But I have been guessing it will be around 92dB and will be limited by how the response of the 15PR400 driver is in the box (since they claim 98ish dB half space sensitivity and I assumed full baffle step loss of about 6dB).
Just doing the simulations in VituixCAD for the 15PR400 driver which handles the range of around 300 Hz,
Here is the half-space response plot with 2.83V input voltage
Using the diffraction tool and combining the half-space response with box diffraction, I get the following plot
The diffraction response based on the ideal driver assumption (without considering the driver half space response in box) is the following
Now I am a little confused, about the sensitivity in the 300Hz region.. 😀
Hi there,
But bellow the vinicity of 200 hz this is room that dictates and at those frequencies of the 15PR400 we are in 4Pi space, so do we have to substract 6dB or ? for having the true spl curve ?
Or you mean, the second measurement sim is 4 Pi ? Linkwitz tranform needed or taming the upper range ?
But bellow the vinicity of 200 hz this is room that dictates and at those frequencies of the 15PR400 we are in 4Pi space, so do we have to substract 6dB or ? for having the true spl curve ?
Or you mean, the second measurement sim is 4 Pi ? Linkwitz tranform needed or taming the upper range ?
Last edited:
Hi @diyiggy,
In this speaker, the very low frequencies will be handled by an SB audience NERO SW800 (green driver response below) driver, which will crossover to the 15PR400 (red driver response) roughly as shown below.
There will be some EQ/linkwitz transform applied to the NERO SW800 driver given the small size of the box. I am also expecting some boundary reinforcement as the driver centre will be just about 9 inches up from the floor and 2-3 inches away from the front wall (driver faces the wall).. So it will get some boundary reinforcement.. Hence I don't think the subwoofer driver will seeing true 4pi space and corresponding loss of SPL..
With the 15PR400, I am assuming that it will see more of a 2pi-like space as it will be about 30ish inches up from the floor..
Anyway, at least the subwoofer driver EQ will be based on in-room measurements at listening position
In this speaker, the very low frequencies will be handled by an SB audience NERO SW800 (green driver response below) driver, which will crossover to the 15PR400 (red driver response) roughly as shown below.
There will be some EQ/linkwitz transform applied to the NERO SW800 driver given the small size of the box. I am also expecting some boundary reinforcement as the driver centre will be just about 9 inches up from the floor and 2-3 inches away from the front wall (driver faces the wall).. So it will get some boundary reinforcement.. Hence I don't think the subwoofer driver will seeing true 4pi space and corresponding loss of SPL..
With the 15PR400, I am assuming that it will see more of a 2pi-like space as it will be about 30ish inches up from the floor..
Anyway, at least the subwoofer driver EQ will be based on in-room measurements at listening position
Thanks. I like the idea of a big dedicated woofer for the slam frequenties of interest. Should be tricky to setup because a little on the middle of the things talked : end of baffle step and the big waves length here (2Pi to 4Pi transition), room modes, Schroeder frequency of the room.
I'm looking forward when it will end after the real measurement in room and on external on soil and the trade offs you choose in the final crossover. I saw you are active DSP...
Cool design, bravo 🙂
I'm looking forward when it will end after the real measurement in room and on external on soil and the trade offs you choose in the final crossover. I saw you are active DSP...
Cool design, bravo 🙂
Cabinets are done.. 😀
Now just waiting for them to come home..
Here are few pics and a video of them in the workshop
In the meantime, I have been working a little bit on crossover/linearization of the EXAR400 horn+SB audience 65CDN-T driver combo that I already have at home..
The MEH top module needs a little bit more design tweaks (+ simulations).. I am working on it bit by bit when I get time..
Anyway, here is the raw response of the driver on the horn and its linearized version for an LR4 800Hz crossover (just as an example).
For actual pairing with the 15PR400 driver, these numbers might change... Here I was just trying to tame that 15kHz titanium diaphragm break up (even though it is said that people mostly prefer it) and hear how it sounds..
Now just waiting for them to come home..
Here are few pics and a video of them in the workshop
In the meantime, I have been working a little bit on crossover/linearization of the EXAR400 horn+SB audience 65CDN-T driver combo that I already have at home..
The MEH top module needs a little bit more design tweaks (+ simulations).. I am working on it bit by bit when I get time..
Anyway, here is the raw response of the driver on the horn and its linearized version for an LR4 800Hz crossover (just as an example).
For actual pairing with the 15PR400 driver, these numbers might change... Here I was just trying to tame that 15kHz titanium diaphragm break up (even though it is said that people mostly prefer it) and hear how it sounds..
Attachments
Very nice response curves. And the cabinets look great!
Some miscellaneous updates.. 🙂
I have bought a minidsp flex 8 and a wiim pro streamer just to use its digital output.
The wiim feeds audio to the minidsp through optical out, which is then fed to my amps and then to the speakers..
The speakers I listen to on a daily basis are the 2 x WO24P Satori woofers + EXAR 400 (+SB audience Rosso 65CDN-T) system in a 2.5-way configuration.
The system sounds great is all I can say..
I keep repeating, but the SB audience Rosso 65CDN-T, to me, feels like a special driver. It just does music so well, is all I can say (upon comparing it with the Peerless DFM 2544R and BMS 4550 I have used so far). But then again, I might not have used the other drivers to the best extent possible.. 🙂
I have two presets on the minidsp which implement the following 2 crossovers..
Preset-1
Preset-2
I just keep switching between the above 2 presets while listening to songs.
I have not yet reached any conclusion about which one I like better on most of the music material.
But I definitely like/prefer preset-2 on some songs.. I am just giving myself some time to form a better opinion about this.. 😀
Also, I have been using the https://zoudio.com/product/aio438/ amp on the same system so far, before the arrival of minidsp and also been using only its Bluetooth connection...
I feel that it is a tremendous value for money device comparing with the Wiim + minidsp flex 8 (has limited BQs of 5 per channel though and 2way crossover capability).. I never needed a resistor padding of the compression driver so far with this amp.. But with the minidsp + custom-made amps, I do hear a tiny bit of the noise floor on the CD without resistor padding.. 🙂 The zoudio board will now power my other 3 way cardioid PC speaker system..
On another note, I need to assemble the big (biggest yet) system with the 15-inch driver once the cabinets reach me, hopefully next week. I also need to finish the MEH.. I don't know what more I am expecting in terms of music listening experience.. I also have a strong urge to get the ATH 520G2 horn printed since my cabinets are exactly 520mm in width, so I feel that look-wise, it will match great. But I am just holding on to see what @tmuikku says after he gets his 460G2 + ND3N system ready.. 😉
At this point of time, I am just exploring different 'flavours' of presentation of music by all these different systems..
Finally, I should probably say this.. after the last 3 years of this speaker building and endless crossover/system tweaking journey, I have realized that I am not the kind of music-first audiophile who enjoys just music on that one system for tens of years.. 😀
I need to take up engineering challenges w.r.t designing speakers.. That part keeps me more 'alive' than listening to music alone.. Off course, I really enjoy listening to music as well but the other part is just so much more exciting.. 😀
And that 8-inch Purifi driver + some other driver that can match it in performance is on the horizon.. far away dream as of now.. but probably getting closer every day. Do I even need it..? I don't know..probably not.. 😀
But should I design/build such a speaker.. Definitely yes.. 😀😉
I have bought a minidsp flex 8 and a wiim pro streamer just to use its digital output.
The wiim feeds audio to the minidsp through optical out, which is then fed to my amps and then to the speakers..
The speakers I listen to on a daily basis are the 2 x WO24P Satori woofers + EXAR 400 (+SB audience Rosso 65CDN-T) system in a 2.5-way configuration.
The system sounds great is all I can say..
I keep repeating, but the SB audience Rosso 65CDN-T, to me, feels like a special driver. It just does music so well, is all I can say (upon comparing it with the Peerless DFM 2544R and BMS 4550 I have used so far). But then again, I might not have used the other drivers to the best extent possible.. 🙂
I have two presets on the minidsp which implement the following 2 crossovers..
Preset-1
Preset-2
I just keep switching between the above 2 presets while listening to songs.
I have not yet reached any conclusion about which one I like better on most of the music material.
But I definitely like/prefer preset-2 on some songs.. I am just giving myself some time to form a better opinion about this.. 😀
Also, I have been using the https://zoudio.com/product/aio438/ amp on the same system so far, before the arrival of minidsp and also been using only its Bluetooth connection...
I feel that it is a tremendous value for money device comparing with the Wiim + minidsp flex 8 (has limited BQs of 5 per channel though and 2way crossover capability).. I never needed a resistor padding of the compression driver so far with this amp.. But with the minidsp + custom-made amps, I do hear a tiny bit of the noise floor on the CD without resistor padding.. 🙂 The zoudio board will now power my other 3 way cardioid PC speaker system..
On another note, I need to assemble the big (biggest yet) system with the 15-inch driver once the cabinets reach me, hopefully next week. I also need to finish the MEH.. I don't know what more I am expecting in terms of music listening experience.. I also have a strong urge to get the ATH 520G2 horn printed since my cabinets are exactly 520mm in width, so I feel that look-wise, it will match great. But I am just holding on to see what @tmuikku says after he gets his 460G2 + ND3N system ready.. 😉
At this point of time, I am just exploring different 'flavours' of presentation of music by all these different systems..
Finally, I should probably say this.. after the last 3 years of this speaker building and endless crossover/system tweaking journey, I have realized that I am not the kind of music-first audiophile who enjoys just music on that one system for tens of years.. 😀
I need to take up engineering challenges w.r.t designing speakers.. That part keeps me more 'alive' than listening to music alone.. Off course, I really enjoy listening to music as well but the other part is just so much more exciting.. 😀
And that 8-inch Purifi driver + some other driver that can match it in performance is on the horizon.. far away dream as of now.. but probably getting closer every day. Do I even need it..? I don't know..probably not.. 😀
But should I design/build such a speaker.. Definitely yes.. 😀😉
Attachments
Last edited:
It'll take some time before I have complete system together with A460G2, and then some time to tweak it. It'll end up on some level of goodness regardless, but it is very hard to quantify on absolute scale of things as I don't have such scale, and if I had it would be tough communicate over the forum 🙂 Good speakers are good, it's just how well they fit in a particular context, which could make some better than others in that. I think my context would have benefited MEH better, but given budget and time constrain 1.4" waveguide over 15" mid it is. My mid cab is also 52cm by the way 😀
So in this sense you could build A520G2 out of curiosity before waiting anyones opinion 🙂
ps. I'm building this system for a friend, and he accidentally ordered ND3T instead of specified ND3N, but as they are rather close together in performance it is not worth it to make a return, might as well try these first, they are likely as good as any.
So in this sense you could build A520G2 out of curiosity before waiting anyones opinion 🙂
ps. I'm building this system for a friend, and he accidentally ordered ND3T instead of specified ND3N, but as they are rather close together in performance it is not worth it to make a return, might as well try these first, they are likely as good as any.
Is it at all surprising that you prefer the louder of the two presets?
Interesting choice of presets. One that favors the axial response; the other the power response with about a 2 db compromise in one needed to optimize the other. It will be instructive to see where your prerence ends up. Perhaps the best response might be intermediate between the two.
Have you tried steeper slopes? That would reduce the width of the compromise peak or null. Have you tried linear phase?
An engineering challenge you might take on would be to find an system architecture that minimizes the dip or peak in one needed to optimize the other. That might actually be your MEH design.
Have you tried steeper slopes? That would reduce the width of the compromise peak or null. Have you tried linear phase?
An engineering challenge you might take on would be to find an system architecture that minimizes the dip or peak in one needed to optimize the other. That might actually be your MEH design.
Last edited:
Forgot to mention I also cycle DSP presets every now and then. I've made several during few years for different experiments, slopes, xo points and so on, more or less listening position related tweaks and I've been converging back to one preset, indicating it's somehow better than others. I Haven't bothered to check / revisit yet what it is made of, so haven't learned anything from it yet 😀
It's interesting to do this kind of long experiment, as the speakers are modular and easily have several cm differences in relative positioning for example, affected by daily live, things move around. All of them DSP presets were made with good intention so have smooth response, optimized on screen relatively independently (I haven't compared them much on screen), with seemingly relatively small differences here and there, yet one still sounds more vivid than others. Perhaps my measurements have error and this one has counter error?😀 anyway, fun time with hobby
It's interesting to do this kind of long experiment, as the speakers are modular and easily have several cm differences in relative positioning for example, affected by daily live, things move around. All of them DSP presets were made with good intention so have smooth response, optimized on screen relatively independently (I haven't compared them much on screen), with seemingly relatively small differences here and there, yet one still sounds more vivid than others. Perhaps my measurements have error and this one has counter error?😀 anyway, fun time with hobby
Last edited:
You prefer the SB better than the Peerless or BMS ?
@tmuikku: Thanks for this information.. I am in no hurry to immediately build the 520G2 (even though it would be better in performance/nicer looking compared to the EXAR 400 I currently have).. First I will experiment with EXAR 400 and the MEH on the system and then may think about the 520G2.. 🙂
@witwald: You might be right.. 🙂
But loudness-wise, I measured both the presets at the MLP 2.5+ m away from the speakers.. except for the bump around 1kHz, everywhere else; both the presets show very similar on-axis response... As @nc535 said, I have been confused about the whether the preference is due to power response smoothness vs listening window responses.. It could as well be due to loudness..
@nc535: Thanks for the suggestions.. More things to try out for me.. 🙂 I am definitely going to build the system around the 15-inch drivers before making any further experimentation. I have this feeling that the 15-inch + EXAR 400 might give a better compromise in terms of response curves. But I have high hopes for the MEH as well.. 😀 I just want to finish off the endless tweaking of the design, get it printed and listen to it.. 😀
@Rokytheman: Yes I do prefer the SB driver on this particular horn over the BMS and the DFM 2544R on ST260KVAR horns.. So it is definitely not a fair comparison between the drivers.. Also, the response of these drivers on the different horns has been different in terms of directivity. I also did not optimize the crossovers in the case of BMS and Peerless.. So i should not be making any comparisons.. But since you asked, this is what I remember about these drivers (BMS crossed over 4th order around 1.1kHz and Peerless crossed over 4th order around 1.25kHz)
What I remember from relatively shorter listening sessions is Peerless had a slightly hard, in your face kind of sound (remember crossed over around 1.2ish kHz).. It was a constantish directivity horn, I tried lowering the slope of the on axis response than flat all the way.. It got better, but I was never at ease with it.. It had good highs though..
With the BMS, my only complaint was mainly the 'sssss' sound it hand on some songs.. It was a little annoying to me sometimes..
I have tried the Rosso 65 CDN-T on LTH 142 horn and the EXAR 400 horn.. crossed over around 800Hz.. In both these cases, it sounds effortless with ample amount of high frequencies.. I just haven't found anything to complain about (seriously) yet with this driver. So I love it.. 🙂
@witwald: You might be right.. 🙂
But loudness-wise, I measured both the presets at the MLP 2.5+ m away from the speakers.. except for the bump around 1kHz, everywhere else; both the presets show very similar on-axis response... As @nc535 said, I have been confused about the whether the preference is due to power response smoothness vs listening window responses.. It could as well be due to loudness..
@nc535: Thanks for the suggestions.. More things to try out for me.. 🙂 I am definitely going to build the system around the 15-inch drivers before making any further experimentation. I have this feeling that the 15-inch + EXAR 400 might give a better compromise in terms of response curves. But I have high hopes for the MEH as well.. 😀 I just want to finish off the endless tweaking of the design, get it printed and listen to it.. 😀
@Rokytheman: Yes I do prefer the SB driver on this particular horn over the BMS and the DFM 2544R on ST260KVAR horns.. So it is definitely not a fair comparison between the drivers.. Also, the response of these drivers on the different horns has been different in terms of directivity. I also did not optimize the crossovers in the case of BMS and Peerless.. So i should not be making any comparisons.. But since you asked, this is what I remember about these drivers (BMS crossed over 4th order around 1.1kHz and Peerless crossed over 4th order around 1.25kHz)
What I remember from relatively shorter listening sessions is Peerless had a slightly hard, in your face kind of sound (remember crossed over around 1.2ish kHz).. It was a constantish directivity horn, I tried lowering the slope of the on axis response than flat all the way.. It got better, but I was never at ease with it.. It had good highs though..
With the BMS, my only complaint was mainly the 'sssss' sound it hand on some songs.. It was a little annoying to me sometimes..
I have tried the Rosso 65 CDN-T on LTH 142 horn and the EXAR 400 horn.. crossed over around 800Hz.. In both these cases, it sounds effortless with ample amount of high frequencies.. I just haven't found anything to complain about (seriously) yet with this driver. So I love it.. 🙂
I've taken a closer look at what you've called "the bump around 1kHz". The plot below is what it looks like to me. It appears that there is a significant amount of EQ being applied by Preset 2. I'd expect the effects to be quite audible on axis, even before we start delving into things like the power response.
Try the EQ settings while listening with a pair of headphones and playing pink noise, and I think you will clearly hear the difference.
Try the EQ settings while listening with a pair of headphones and playing pink noise, and I think you will clearly hear the difference.
Have you tried to roll off the lower woofer with an inductor or active filter? The horizontal directivity looks good and smooth but the vertical is what is making the PIR and Power response dip down in Preset 1. There are always tracks where certain EQ's (even obviously bad ones) can be a benefit, but normally not on a wider variety of programme. I've made a few EQ pre-sets from tweaking by ear on a particular track which sounded awesome, only to prove horrible on almost anything else. Great for remastering the track, not much use for anything else.
It comes from the vertical response because the horizontal is free of it. If the Blue line is the lower woofer there is not much separation around the crossover point and above. Try having the lower roll off more so it is not contributing anything from 500Hz up and see if that does it.