From 5 second it start to change.
You did a great work on first reflection point treatment! I would have expected for the timbral change to happen sooner.
Your neighborhood must have asked themself 'what is this giant shower Vineeth instaled into his living room?!' Lol.
You did a great work on first reflection point treatment! I would have expected for the timbral change to happen sooner.
Your neighborhood must have asked themself 'what is this giant shower Vineeth instaled into his living room?!' Lol.
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Your welcome Vineeth. I find this kind of experiments fun too.
If you have a backyard with a bit of space one interesting experiment is to lay loudspeaker down on the floor pointing to the sky, play pink noise and move in circle around it: you'll spot easily dips in power response and other 'acoustic interaction' anomaly.
If you have a backyard with a bit of space one interesting experiment is to lay loudspeaker down on the floor pointing to the sky, play pink noise and move in circle around it: you'll spot easily dips in power response and other 'acoustic interaction' anomaly.
Yes they do tell about differences, but to my ears room sound echoes dominate too much to give a verdict.
I couldn't wait to hear the system in stereo..
So I completed the second speaker, played a favourite song from YouTube, and even recorded it.
It is pretty mind-blowing listening in person. More than listening, it is a sensation.. 😀 Bass washing over the body and all. I can hear the sound stage extend beyond the walls at the back of the speaker and all..
I know that recording isn't accurate and that some room modes may need killing etc.. 😀 But this is fun.. Take a listen with some good headphones if anyone is interested... 😀
So I completed the second speaker, played a favourite song from YouTube, and even recorded it.
It is pretty mind-blowing listening in person. More than listening, it is a sensation.. 😀 Bass washing over the body and all. I can hear the sound stage extend beyond the walls at the back of the speaker and all..
I know that recording isn't accurate and that some room modes may need killing etc.. 😀 But this is fun.. Take a listen with some good headphones if anyone is interested... 😀
Measurements of the left and right speakers from 1.5m away just to get an idea of what is happening above 1kHz
Now I work on some room EQ using measurements from listening position.. 🙂
Now I work on some room EQ using measurements from listening position.. 🙂
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Unfortunately, in the city I currently live, I don't get the luxury of playing with things in an open space except for the roof of the 4-storey apartment I am staying in. The entire place is surrounded by high-rise buildings and its a bit suffocating. I think the new place will be a little better than this one. In general, rapid, unplanned development has ruined this city. At least in my hometown, I have some open space to do some experiments. Hopefully, once I go home, I will try out some of these experiments.. 🙂
Tried to do some room EQ. Basic magnitude correction first. Next step is to apply proper excess phase correction based EQ I guess.. 🙂
Here is how the frequency response and step responses look like at main listening position
Subjectively it makes a lot of difference to sound. It shows how much we are used to bloated bass in room. The impression that I got with this EQ is the feeling of speed. This is especially notable with percussion instruments. Or maybe I have turned down the bass a bit more than needed? 😀
Here is how the frequency response and step responses look like at main listening position
Subjectively it makes a lot of difference to sound. It shows how much we are used to bloated bass in room. The impression that I got with this EQ is the feeling of speed. This is especially notable with percussion instruments. Or maybe I have turned down the bass a bit more than needed? 😀
It is pretty amazing that you had a -15 dB null at 50 Hz. That is a big null.
I wish I was not partially color blind... your two plot colors both look like a blue-purple to me. On the step response curve, which line is the after-eq?
I wish I was not partially color blind... your two plot colors both look like a blue-purple to me. On the step response curve, which line is the after-eq?
@hifijim: The earlier plots show the left and right speaker responses after room EQ. The before room EQ curves are not shown in it.
It was done using a single-point measurement at the listening position. Unfortunately, I am not able to find that REW file now. Otherwise, I could have changed the colours and uploaded it again.
The -15 dB peak is only seen in on one speaker (the left channel).
Today I tried to learn room correction with multi-point measurements roughly around the head region at the listening position. I did the following things.
1) Room EQ with vector-averaged multi-point measurements at the listening position for generating a target response
2) Virtual double bass array-based inverse comb-like filter synthesis and using it to combat (to some extent) the axial modes along the longest dimension in the room.
3) Full FIR filter-based inversion filter for magnitude response
4) Phase response linearization and correction using Rephase
5) Excess phase correction in the 100Hz to 1kHz region
It is a lot of work.. 😀 But it was really some learning about all this. And I tried to implement all the above methods and baked them all into a single FIR filter for convolution.
Here is a before and after curve for the left speaker (the one where you noticed the 15dB dip above). Unfortunately, I forgot to create a proper correction target curve (including setting a high pass filter somewhere around 25-30Hz), so all the effort went down the drain. But still, now that I know these methods, I will try to perfect it to the extent possible in the coming days. 😀
Anyway, here are the before and after curves at main listening position.
Frequency response curves
Step response curves (correspoding to freq. responses above)
PS: I tried to learn all this from videos like this one:
Regards
Vineeth
It was done using a single-point measurement at the listening position. Unfortunately, I am not able to find that REW file now. Otherwise, I could have changed the colours and uploaded it again.
The -15 dB peak is only seen in on one speaker (the left channel).
Today I tried to learn room correction with multi-point measurements roughly around the head region at the listening position. I did the following things.
1) Room EQ with vector-averaged multi-point measurements at the listening position for generating a target response
2) Virtual double bass array-based inverse comb-like filter synthesis and using it to combat (to some extent) the axial modes along the longest dimension in the room.
3) Full FIR filter-based inversion filter for magnitude response
4) Phase response linearization and correction using Rephase
5) Excess phase correction in the 100Hz to 1kHz region
It is a lot of work.. 😀 But it was really some learning about all this. And I tried to implement all the above methods and baked them all into a single FIR filter for convolution.
Here is a before and after curve for the left speaker (the one where you noticed the 15dB dip above). Unfortunately, I forgot to create a proper correction target curve (including setting a high pass filter somewhere around 25-30Hz), so all the effort went down the drain. But still, now that I know these methods, I will try to perfect it to the extent possible in the coming days. 😀
Anyway, here are the before and after curves at main listening position.
Frequency response curves
Step response curves (correspoding to freq. responses above)
PS: I tried to learn all this from videos like this one:
Regards
Vineeth
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Just be cautious of Youtube hyperbole and straight lines, there is too much alchemy in room processing for a one size fits all approach.
Keep a good set of headphones around to keep your tonality reference grounded.
Give yourself enough time and your brain will trick you into liking anything 🙂
@fluid 😀 The guy in the video is a little obsessed With making it all a straight line but he does explain all methods well. i learn from these videos rather than reading to get a start to learning all these techniques that are available out there and not because of any belief that they are the best form of EQ. Often i found that once i start reading about things, i get to reading one thing after the other and never get any time to try out any of those in the actual system and understanding the impact for myself, whether i like it or not 😀 But I completely get your point 🙂
Regarding headphones, it is something that I have been wanting to ask for a long time. What is a good headphone For speaker building purposes?
I have heard some people saying that they use etymotic as it seems to be very neutral. I was never much into any headphones and don't know which one is good or bad. I just know the cheap ones i use to take calls in office now 😀 Tried some even a bit expensive ones in the past but i never stuck with any for long.
Regarding liking everything, you are correct. 🙂 this is what have experienced so far. But one thing I found out is of all the speakers i have heard and made so far, these horn based speakers are the ones that I liked the most so far in the current set up and that I can clearly/distinctly identify. I don't know what is it, but there is something special about them. 😀 But i keep all the speakers around because who knows what i like when I go to the next house 😀
Regards
Vineeth
Regarding headphones, it is something that I have been wanting to ask for a long time. What is a good headphone For speaker building purposes?
I have heard some people saying that they use etymotic as it seems to be very neutral. I was never much into any headphones and don't know which one is good or bad. I just know the cheap ones i use to take calls in office now 😀 Tried some even a bit expensive ones in the past but i never stuck with any for long.
Regarding liking everything, you are correct. 🙂 this is what have experienced so far. But one thing I found out is of all the speakers i have heard and made so far, these horn based speakers are the ones that I liked the most so far in the current set up and that I can clearly/distinctly identify. I don't know what is it, but there is something special about them. 😀 But i keep all the speakers around because who knows what i like when I go to the next house 😀
Regards
Vineeth
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I had a brief interaction with him on ASR, no doubt he has learned how to use the options in the tools and that videos are any easy way to get into using the tools available.
Etymotic has their own target closer to a diffuse field which most people consider to be bass light, Harman is similar with a bass boost and slight scoop. Crinacle's target is Diffuse field with a bass boost. How much bass you like is a bit of a personal thing so varying a shelving EQ is a good way to find what you like. Bass is relative to treble in terms of how much of it you perceive.
I think that over ear headphones are better for this use and less prone to fit issues. In ear monitors can vary a lot with fit and types of tips, the Etymotic being deep insertion which is apparently an acquired taste 🙂 I like Harman over ear but not their in ear target.
Almost any headphone can be EQ'd to serve as a reference, there are many EQ's and measurements from orartory 1990 and others that can be found directly and included in the AutoEQ project at github
https://github.com/jaakkopasanen/AutoEq/blob/master/results/INDEX.md
For something that is neutral without EQ or much EQ there is the Sennheiser HD600/650 Drop HD6XX, the Sennheiser HD560, the AKG K371 and others. Many of the expensive headphones aim to address sound stage issues, this can affect tonality which then needs EQ to rebalance. Much of the discussion on headphones and whether someone likes them more than others seem to come down to these more intangible properties. For checking speaker tuning and being a handy tonal reference those sort of things aren't as much of a detriment.
In your reverb tank at least some of the preference could well be narrower High and Mid directivity not exciting the room as much. The speaker and room are a combination, in another room things might change or not. Finding something you prefer more is good, even if you don't know why 🙂
Thanks a lot @fluid 🙂
I mostly hate in ears and like over ears much better in terms of general usage.
I had the akg k371 BT for 1year.. It is one of the worst headphones i have had in terms of quality control. The faux leather on it started pealing off since week-1 of my purchase and the left earcup completely broke away in 1 year.. But now that I know it can be considered as a reference for tonality, I just wish I knew this earlier so that I would have taken bit more care with that headphone.
Anyway, i will buy another pair of headphones from the ones you mentioned above. I used to have senheisser HD 560 SE for a while and being open back, i couldn't use it much as there was always noise around in surroundings which i would hear along with music in my regular music listening 😀
Senheisser HD650 seems tempting except probably for the bass, which ASR says can be EQed at the cost of some distortion. Let me try to read up about these a bit more and try to buy one 🙂
The reverb tank will change in a month and the new room in think will be an even worse nightmare with no walls on one end ( to the left side of the left speaker and glass doors leading to a balcony on the other (to the right side of the right speaker)..😀
I will try some experiments there regarding preferences and report back.
I mostly hate in ears and like over ears much better in terms of general usage.
I had the akg k371 BT for 1year.. It is one of the worst headphones i have had in terms of quality control. The faux leather on it started pealing off since week-1 of my purchase and the left earcup completely broke away in 1 year.. But now that I know it can be considered as a reference for tonality, I just wish I knew this earlier so that I would have taken bit more care with that headphone.
Anyway, i will buy another pair of headphones from the ones you mentioned above. I used to have senheisser HD 560 SE for a while and being open back, i couldn't use it much as there was always noise around in surroundings which i would hear along with music in my regular music listening 😀
Senheisser HD650 seems tempting except probably for the bass, which ASR says can be EQed at the cost of some distortion. Let me try to read up about these a bit more and try to buy one 🙂
The reverb tank will change in a month and the new room in think will be an even worse nightmare with no walls on one end ( to the left side of the left speaker and glass doors leading to a balcony on the other (to the right side of the right speaker)..😀
I will try some experiments there regarding preferences and report back.
Most headphones with built in Bluetooth are not great, there are a few exceptions but they are rare so check the AKG ones too they make a few stinkers as well as some good ones, very similar model numbers with very different performance 🙂
If you order from Massdrop and the price isn't too high you might consider these Dan Clark Aeon Closed.
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/drop-dan-clark-audio-aeon-closed-x.26711/
Equalizing open back headphones in the bass is always tricky particularly if you use the full Harman boost like Amir. Choices are to back off the volume or back off the boost.
Sonarworks has reviews including pre and post EQ, some of the Beyerdynamic models are good with EQ.
https://www.sonarworks.com/blog/gear-reviews
If you order from Massdrop and the price isn't too high you might consider these Dan Clark Aeon Closed.
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/drop-dan-clark-audio-aeon-closed-x.26711/
Equalizing open back headphones in the bass is always tricky particularly if you use the full Harman boost like Amir. Choices are to back off the volume or back off the boost.
Sonarworks has reviews including pre and post EQ, some of the Beyerdynamic models are good with EQ.
https://www.sonarworks.com/blog/gear-reviews
Thinking that I won't be using headphones much and only as a tonality reference I bought a truthear crinnacle zero headphones.. I never knew how I will like their sound but I like their sound except maybe a little less treble than I am used to.. 😀 But I like the bass on it
In the meanwhile. here is one more attempt at a crossover for getting a better-looking impulse for the 2 way (I did some crossover phase linearization using rephase and imported it into vituixcad):
Next is a simplified room-EQ 🙂
In the meanwhile. here is one more attempt at a crossover for getting a better-looking impulse for the 2 way (I did some crossover phase linearization using rephase and imported it into vituixcad):
Next is a simplified room-EQ 🙂
Oh no you’ve gone down the headphone rabbit hole.
I have the Crinacle zero. Stupid panther; I give it a solid 6.5 out of 10 for sound, 9 for value, 2 for comfort.
Next stop?
Drop 58X if you want the bass (and ability to play from your phone) or Sennheiser HD600 if want a reference for midrange//treble.. unfortunately both can warm your ears so not great in tropical climates
I have the Crinacle zero. Stupid panther; I give it a solid 6.5 out of 10 for sound, 9 for value, 2 for comfort.
Next stop?
Drop 58X if you want the bass (and ability to play from your phone) or Sennheiser HD600 if want a reference for midrange//treble.. unfortunately both can warm your ears so not great in tropical climates
@tktran303: Thanks for the suggestions. 🙂
Over the years, I have had headphones from Senheisser, audiotechnica, akg, audeze, 1more, Philips, beyerdynamic and many other brands which I am unable to remember now. In fact I have spent much more money on headphones than i have spent on the speakers mentioned in this thread so far.. 😀
But this was all at a time when I didn't know that measurements even existed for headphones and even speakers (other than an on axis response).. 🙂
But the funny thing was that I never liked any of them headphones.. I don't know why but even mediocre speakers gave me an experience while listening to music that was much better than any of them (just my opinion). That is when I tried to take up this speaker-building thing seriously... 🙂
I bought this current truthear one because it was the cheapest and because I can (if possible) experience that sound signature.. Seems like I am still away from headphone neutrality.. 😀
I am planning to buy the Dan Clark audio aeons next. It needs a significant amount of money here (more than double the cost of sennheisser HD650 here). BSo I am saving up for it... thinking that it will end my headphone journey... if that sort of a thing is ever possible in audio.. 😀 😀
Over the years, I have had headphones from Senheisser, audiotechnica, akg, audeze, 1more, Philips, beyerdynamic and many other brands which I am unable to remember now. In fact I have spent much more money on headphones than i have spent on the speakers mentioned in this thread so far.. 😀
But this was all at a time when I didn't know that measurements even existed for headphones and even speakers (other than an on axis response).. 🙂
But the funny thing was that I never liked any of them headphones.. I don't know why but even mediocre speakers gave me an experience while listening to music that was much better than any of them (just my opinion). That is when I tried to take up this speaker-building thing seriously... 🙂
I bought this current truthear one because it was the cheapest and because I can (if possible) experience that sound signature.. Seems like I am still away from headphone neutrality.. 😀
I am planning to buy the Dan Clark audio aeons next. It needs a significant amount of money here (more than double the cost of sennheisser HD650 here). BSo I am saving up for it... thinking that it will end my headphone journey... if that sort of a thing is ever possible in audio.. 😀 😀
So today I learned to use DRC FIR.. Pretty amaaaazing tool I think 😀
Here is a comparison of responses before and after EQ:
EQed responses alone for better visibility:
Step responses of left and right channels after EQ:
Didn't get much time to hear the system yet... But one thing I could easily make out from just one song is precise imaging.. dead center vocals on that song.. and bass seems much more even with less boom associated with some frequencies.
I need to turn up volume and hear more tomorrow... Ohh this is fun.. 😀 😀
Here is a comparison of responses before and after EQ:
EQed responses alone for better visibility:
Step responses of left and right channels after EQ:
Didn't get much time to hear the system yet... But one thing I could easily make out from just one song is precise imaging.. dead center vocals on that song.. and bass seems much more even with less boom associated with some frequencies.
I need to turn up volume and hear more tomorrow... Ohh this is fun.. 😀 😀