They’re practically headphones! And I thought I had my speakers wide. I imagine this is very correct though, as I often see cancellations when I get the chance to sweep my systems. It’s super fun seeing your projects come together. It sounds great through my earbuds, and I wonder if not being able to see them adds to the illusion. They‘re almost too fabulous to hide. Your builder does fantastic work.
Nice! If you continue to listen consciously both sides the transition and listen how the room affects the sound, how toe-in changes the sound, and so on you'll learn to hear effect of the room and all sorts of things, about listening! 🙂
Since the shift in perception seems to happen in hearing system so it's not speaker dependent just sound dependent, I suspect you'd hear the transition with your conventional speaker as well, just need to be much closer to the speaker than with the cardioids, have much smaller listening triangle.
Well, I only have my one set of speakers so a lot of it is speculation and attempt to communicate what I perceive, no hobby friends to listen together, my family is not too interested 😀 I'm glad that you reported and I would be grateful if you posted in case you learn more about it.
@D1sco: Thanks a lot for the encouraging words.. 🙂
The friend who builds these cabinets that I design is another DIY enthusiast mechanical engineer who finds time for all this despite his very busy schedule.. I am very thankful to him and admire his skills.. 🙂
@tmuikku: Thanks. I keep learning a lot from your posts.. I will keep posting as I experiment and learn more about all this 🙂
The friend who builds these cabinets that I design is another DIY enthusiast mechanical engineer who finds time for all this despite his very busy schedule.. I am very thankful to him and admire his skills.. 🙂
@tmuikku: Thanks. I keep learning a lot from your posts.. I will keep posting as I experiment and learn more about all this 🙂
In my limited experience: narrow directivity <1kHz = improved clarity but "Thin" sounding; wide directivity <1kHz = diminished clarity but "Warm" sounding. You loose mid-bass range reverberance with narrowed directivity. Placed close to a boundary like a desk against a wall I'd probably choose narrowed mid-bass because the warmth becomes boomy. You can EQ it out like most studio monitors but I don't think that sounds as good.
And if you want to have a discussion about the sound we could try! Now, as it seems to be such a binary effect, and we both are familiar with it, we are now connected perceptually even though we are not on the same room together! 🙂
For example, since you have ability to make linearphase filters, I wonder if it makes audible difference, and what kind of audible exactly? I wonder if it's more audible either side of the transition? Speculation is, that outdide the transition it's not audible assuming the transition happens because brain can make sense about original sound harmonics, in other words phase information is maintained well enough. Not sure if it can be simplified this far and would like to do listening tests, but currently have no capability to make linear phase filters.
edit. I'm not sure how far in the woods you are with this since it's only few days you've perhaps had it. I know I'm and I see a lot of power in it; think about the particular example above, if linear phase filters make audible difference on both sides of the transition, or only on the other, perhaps neither, perhaps transition distance changed? Anyway, you'd now learned a ton since you can relate the perception of linear phase filter to the transition. You'd now be able to make sense most discussion around linear phase filters and have context where you can put it perceptually, at least concerning you and your current listening setup. You've gained actual experience on a thing and tied it to your perception, a leap in knowledge, moment of clarity. But also I could reason with your comments on it and relate to what you say, relate to my listening setup and even to my perception even if I haven't heard it, and much better than seemingly confusing back and worth discussion around it on the web.
For example, since you have ability to make linearphase filters, I wonder if it makes audible difference, and what kind of audible exactly? I wonder if it's more audible either side of the transition? Speculation is, that outdide the transition it's not audible assuming the transition happens because brain can make sense about original sound harmonics, in other words phase information is maintained well enough. Not sure if it can be simplified this far and would like to do listening tests, but currently have no capability to make linear phase filters.
edit. I'm not sure how far in the woods you are with this since it's only few days you've perhaps had it. I know I'm and I see a lot of power in it; think about the particular example above, if linear phase filters make audible difference on both sides of the transition, or only on the other, perhaps neither, perhaps transition distance changed? Anyway, you'd now learned a ton since you can relate the perception of linear phase filter to the transition. You'd now be able to make sense most discussion around linear phase filters and have context where you can put it perceptually, at least concerning you and your current listening setup. You've gained actual experience on a thing and tied it to your perception, a leap in knowledge, moment of clarity. But also I could reason with your comments on it and relate to what you say, relate to my listening setup and even to my perception even if I haven't heard it, and much better than seemingly confusing back and worth discussion around it on the web.
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Thanks @tmuikku.
I had tried a linear phase vs minimum phase kind of comparison with the mono speaker earlier and reported in one of the posts above. My conclusion at the time was that the audibile differences of linear phase vs min phase (to me) was mostly only restricted to kickdrum sound. I could hear a bit of extra boom towards the end of the drum beat with minimum phase but not with linear phase (it sounded "tighter" with linear phase). However, there were other differences also in the crossover.
But, now that I have speakers working in stereo and being able to identify that transition, it would be really interesting to try out the experiment again. linear phase vs min phase on either sides of the transition boundary. I will try it out in coming days and report back 🙂
Edit: Also, At the moment, toe in is extreme. More like greater than 45 degrees so that I get that 20 ish degrees off axis sound firing towards my ears. But it sounds very nice overall except for a bit of "headphone" kind of sound as @D1sco called it earlier
I had tried a linear phase vs minimum phase kind of comparison with the mono speaker earlier and reported in one of the posts above. My conclusion at the time was that the audibile differences of linear phase vs min phase (to me) was mostly only restricted to kickdrum sound. I could hear a bit of extra boom towards the end of the drum beat with minimum phase but not with linear phase (it sounded "tighter" with linear phase). However, there were other differences also in the crossover.
But, now that I have speakers working in stereo and being able to identify that transition, it would be really interesting to try out the experiment again. linear phase vs min phase on either sides of the transition boundary. I will try it out in coming days and report back 🙂
Edit: Also, At the moment, toe in is extreme. More like greater than 45 degrees so that I get that 20 ish degrees off axis sound firing towards my ears. But it sounds very nice overall except for a bit of "headphone" kind of sound as @D1sco called it earlier
Take your time, I think you'll likely utilize the transition rest of your life if you find it fun 🙂
If you find it worth spending time on I encourage you to experiment with speaker positioning and any other listening tests you can come up with in order to find out more about the phenomenon in general; why shift in perception happens, what bandwidth is important for it to happen, how boundaries in your room relate, is multiple things involved that must align, and so on. For example, is some particular early reflections important, whats the threshold (in time / level). Experiments are mostly for you, for your confidence to learn your listening skill and your listening environment, but also for me and possibly others who want to find out more about it.
For now, I've been simplifying the phenomenon just to D/R sound ratio, so basically size of stereo triangle based on limited set of observations that the "worse" the acoustics and DI, the smaller the triangle must be assuming one wants to have the listening spot at the transition. For my speakers the transition seems to happen when ear is about 2-2.5m away from speaker, and in all four different ordinary living rooms I've tried the speakers so far*, so not sure what actually makes it. Perhaps it's only the wall behind speakers that makes or breaks it. How far your transition is by the way, how big of a listening triangle?
*) lots of friends turn 40 this year so lot's of parties and opportunity to bring speakers into different places, for party and some personal listening experiments 😀
If you find it worth spending time on I encourage you to experiment with speaker positioning and any other listening tests you can come up with in order to find out more about the phenomenon in general; why shift in perception happens, what bandwidth is important for it to happen, how boundaries in your room relate, is multiple things involved that must align, and so on. For example, is some particular early reflections important, whats the threshold (in time / level). Experiments are mostly for you, for your confidence to learn your listening skill and your listening environment, but also for me and possibly others who want to find out more about it.
For now, I've been simplifying the phenomenon just to D/R sound ratio, so basically size of stereo triangle based on limited set of observations that the "worse" the acoustics and DI, the smaller the triangle must be assuming one wants to have the listening spot at the transition. For my speakers the transition seems to happen when ear is about 2-2.5m away from speaker, and in all four different ordinary living rooms I've tried the speakers so far*, so not sure what actually makes it. Perhaps it's only the wall behind speakers that makes or breaks it. How far your transition is by the way, how big of a listening triangle?
*) lots of friends turn 40 this year so lot's of parties and opportunity to bring speakers into different places, for party and some personal listening experiments 😀
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Critical distance of a room ( point where you have an equal ratio of direct sound and reverb /room own sound) is dependant of room volume (so size), room's absorption and loudspeaker directivity. The more absorbent the room is, the narrower the loudspeaker directivity have the effect to bring this point 'deeper' into the room ( increase the distance).
Nearfield kind of magnify the effect and given in small and untreated room critical distance can be deceptively low ( ~1m in typical EU room's is not uncommon) it's not surprising you can spot it clearly.
From my own experience with both smaller and bigger loudspeakers i can say i experienced more or less the same thing as you about less defined transition point, but my bigger loudspeakers are in no way directivity management freaks ( direct radiating drivers) and with my coax directivity management happen circa 2khz.
My room is peculiar in that it's shape redirect ceilling early reflection above sweet spot ( angled ceiling) and is relatively big ( 6,6m x 5,7m x 3,8m height) and it is leaky for low end. This have the greatest impact on rendering i've experienced in a domestical room (height ER redirection).
I would seek on the vertical directivity behaviour of both your loudspeaker to try to find an answer first. Then if you could, brinb both outdoor and move around them to identify where the transition you hear or not occur. You already told it was difficult for you but ime it's very revealing to remove the room.
Nearfield kind of magnify the effect and given in small and untreated room critical distance can be deceptively low ( ~1m in typical EU room's is not uncommon) it's not surprising you can spot it clearly.
From my own experience with both smaller and bigger loudspeakers i can say i experienced more or less the same thing as you about less defined transition point, but my bigger loudspeakers are in no way directivity management freaks ( direct radiating drivers) and with my coax directivity management happen circa 2khz.
My room is peculiar in that it's shape redirect ceilling early reflection above sweet spot ( angled ceiling) and is relatively big ( 6,6m x 5,7m x 3,8m height) and it is leaky for low end. This have the greatest impact on rendering i've experienced in a domestical room (height ER redirection).
I would seek on the vertical directivity behaviour of both your loudspeaker to try to find an answer first. Then if you could, brinb both outdoor and move around them to identify where the transition you hear or not occur. You already told it was difficult for you but ime it's very revealing to remove the room.
Your toe in is not extreme and the triangle you have is more than common in size for what is called 'nearfield' monitoring @ a console in a control room.
Amateur most of the time don't get they listen more to their room than their loudspeakers ( when i read 4m distance triangle it often make me smile: the last room i've seem with such a distance between loudspeaker was 180m2 surface with 5 meter height, more than 2kw Bryston amps by side and Th4001+ 2x12" + 4x15" by side too... and dead as a grave regarding room treatments).
What you could do to see the effect of lateral ER is to have still your 20* angling but from the other side ( rather than illuminate the front wall, try spread the side wall with sound keeping same 20* toe in, it should be instructing about ER and how they modify our preception).
And yes the finish and look of your loudspeaker is fantastic. Showed them to coworkers in the last days and they all agree it's stunning work and look.
Amateur most of the time don't get they listen more to their room than their loudspeakers ( when i read 4m distance triangle it often make me smile: the last room i've seem with such a distance between loudspeaker was 180m2 surface with 5 meter height, more than 2kw Bryston amps by side and Th4001+ 2x12" + 4x15" by side too... and dead as a grave regarding room treatments).
What you could do to see the effect of lateral ER is to have still your 20* angling but from the other side ( rather than illuminate the front wall, try spread the side wall with sound keeping same 20* toe in, it should be instructing about ER and how they modify our preception).
And yes the finish and look of your loudspeaker is fantastic. Showed them to coworkers in the last days and they all agree it's stunning work and look.
A very interesting idea I never considered. Now it makes me also want to try a small backyard with four walls but no ceiling. I have family with backyards like that but they live far away.
^ outdoor is very nice condition for loudspeakers to play.
In fact Tom Hidley's first control room design efforts came from a night were they moved a pair of Westlake loudspeaker on top of a studio for a party with the band mixing in there. He was blown away by rendering: hemi-anechoic was then his goal for acoustic treatment ( open sky is a perfect absorber).
People involved into PA for outdoor event knows it too: no walls ( except floor) is golden. There is other drawback though ( depending on wind, weather you can have layers with different propagation time because temp is higher closer to ground at sunset,...).
If you can try to find a very open space, lateral/side walls won't help imho. Another interesting test in open outdoor space ( especially when you can compare with a coax) is to lay on the floor loudspeakers with on axis line pointing to the sky and turn around the playing loudspeaker to spot weak points in freq response... quite educational.
In fact Tom Hidley's first control room design efforts came from a night were they moved a pair of Westlake loudspeaker on top of a studio for a party with the band mixing in there. He was blown away by rendering: hemi-anechoic was then his goal for acoustic treatment ( open sky is a perfect absorber).
People involved into PA for outdoor event knows it too: no walls ( except floor) is golden. There is other drawback though ( depending on wind, weather you can have layers with different propagation time because temp is higher closer to ground at sunset,...).
If you can try to find a very open space, lateral/side walls won't help imho. Another interesting test in open outdoor space ( especially when you can compare with a coax) is to lay on the floor loudspeakers with on axis line pointing to the sky and turn around the playing loudspeaker to spot weak points in freq response... quite educational.
I am still listening and getting used to the speakers.. 🙂
But I just couldn't stop myself from doing this.. 😀
An 8-ish inch woofer at the back for potential active cardioid configuration of the upper bass to low mid & a 12ish inch omni radiating subwoofer for real lows 😀
Not that I am planning to build or anything.. 😛 but just exploring a potential concept 😉 😀
But I just couldn't stop myself from doing this.. 😀
An 8-ish inch woofer at the back for potential active cardioid configuration of the upper bass to low mid & a 12ish inch omni radiating subwoofer for real lows 😀
Not that I am planning to build or anything.. 😛 but just exploring a potential concept 😉 😀
Not sure if the vertical offset between the front-facing and backward firing midwoofer is possible for cardioid.
Yes it is, but it changes the frequency range where the change in directivity can be steered to.
So I was taking stock of speaker things I have pending and saw the big old 15PR400 drivers occupying a lot of space in a cupboard 😀
I thought I could design a simple system (should also space saving) around that and thought about the following concept 🙂 (Please ignore those bad-looking feet for the woofer box.. 😀 )
The 15inch driver in a cardioid box like we have put the sica driver in and cross it to Mabat's petal shaped waveguide, cross it somewhere in the 600 to 800Hz range. For CDs I have the BMS 4550 inch or can adapt the SB audience 65CDN-T driver which I have in hand to make it a 1inch exit driver.
One can add a sub for below 100Hz too. I have 4 x Satori WO24Ps which can be used as makeshift subs from my main system
Please let me know your opinions about this concept.. 🙂
I thought I could design a simple system (should also space saving) around that and thought about the following concept 🙂 (Please ignore those bad-looking feet for the woofer box.. 😀 )
The 15inch driver in a cardioid box like we have put the sica driver in and cross it to Mabat's petal shaped waveguide, cross it somewhere in the 600 to 800Hz range. For CDs I have the BMS 4550 inch or can adapt the SB audience 65CDN-T driver which I have in hand to make it a 1inch exit driver.
One can add a sub for below 100Hz too. I have 4 x Satori WO24Ps which can be used as makeshift subs from my main system
Please let me know your opinions about this concept.. 🙂
Starts to look what I've had few years now 😀 except bigger, I've got ST260 and 8" and then 15" monopole as third way.
This one, try it, you might need to play with the openings for the cardioid. Did you try this in ABEC as well?
I suspect why your 5" cardioid worked so well from the get go is that it's right dimensions. Here the chamber behind driver has much bigger volume, also the openings are much bigger, distances around the system differ, everything much bigger than with the 5". The bandwidth is different here, but still. Anyway, it ought to work as long as you just get it in tune.
ps. I've had some dreams about making a commercial product, hence not sharing too much about my whole system. Everything I have on my system is in my posts though. And my progress has been so slow, even though I've got few more tricks over this one you'll catch up soon 😀
This one, try it, you might need to play with the openings for the cardioid. Did you try this in ABEC as well?
I suspect why your 5" cardioid worked so well from the get go is that it's right dimensions. Here the chamber behind driver has much bigger volume, also the openings are much bigger, distances around the system differ, everything much bigger than with the 5". The bandwidth is different here, but still. Anyway, it ought to work as long as you just get it in tune.
ps. I've had some dreams about making a commercial product, hence not sharing too much about my whole system. Everything I have on my system is in my posts though. And my progress has been so slow, even though I've got few more tricks over this one you'll catch up soon 😀
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I instantly think something like Verity Audio 🤓
https://verityaudio.com/product/lohengrin/
At the moment I'm considering the possibility of making a cardioid with a KEF coax. But wondering whether it can be done like on Blade or LS60, with the woofers on the side, close by.... like this:
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/3-way-floorstanding-with-kef-coax-active.385321/page-5
Are the benefits worth it, compared to the more traditional placement?
@tmuikku: Thanks for the feedback 🙂
I haven't tried in ABEC recently. But I had done something inspired by mabat sometime back during the initial simulation days. I think mabat had also posted some results for a 15inch driver and open enclosure cabinet like this
'
Something tells me that this might work as well as the 5-inch in real world too.. 😀
By the way, I randomly noticed this thread and inspiration for the system comes from here:
https://zelfbouwaudio.nl/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=12263
Here, the horn used will be this, if at all I am able to get it printed:
https://www.at-horns.eu/exar.html (the EXAR 400)
I learnt a lot from your cardioid prototype experiments-related posts in several threads here.
Wishing you all the best for your commercial product aspirations 🙂 I am sure you will make great sounding speakers
I wish I got a chance to work in some real loudspeaker engineering as well.. or maybe not..
Commercial attempts might dictate a lot of constraints, which I may not want to deal with as it might spoil the fun that I am having with all this doing things at my pace etc..
I haven't tried in ABEC recently. But I had done something inspired by mabat sometime back during the initial simulation days. I think mabat had also posted some results for a 15inch driver and open enclosure cabinet like this
Something tells me that this might work as well as the 5-inch in real world too.. 😀
By the way, I randomly noticed this thread and inspiration for the system comes from here:
https://zelfbouwaudio.nl/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=12263
Here, the horn used will be this, if at all I am able to get it printed:
https://www.at-horns.eu/exar.html (the EXAR 400)
I learnt a lot from your cardioid prototype experiments-related posts in several threads here.
Wishing you all the best for your commercial product aspirations 🙂 I am sure you will make great sounding speakers
I wish I got a chance to work in some real loudspeaker engineering as well.. or maybe not..
Commercial attempts might dictate a lot of constraints, which I may not want to deal with as it might spoil the fun that I am having with all this doing things at my pace etc..
Nice speakers 😀
At the moment, I am still listening and understanding the capabilities of my cardioid speaker. For now, I love them, and like them better than all other bookshelf type speakers I have heard so far 🙂
I think more experienced people here might be able to point out the utility of the cardioid concept in its intended placement scenarios in your case and compare with potential benefits disadvantages compared to the KEF blade type enclosure.
Yeah thats what is holding me back as well... and being busy with a real work 😀