I haven't tried this..That looks like really good response.
Have you tried a traditional 2.5 filter topology? This is where the filtering (and level) on the two woofers is identical except that the lower woofer has a first order rolloff starting somewhere in the upper bass. Both woofers play equal in the bass range, and the lower woofer first order rolloff compensates for the baffle step. This topology tends to get the most bass performance out of a pair of drivers.
I will try soonThank you.. These are the exact thoughts I had in mind while making this filter..
@CoolJazz
Vineeth is using a PC based crossover with a 8 channel audio interface. An excellent choice.
If you want to use a one-box external DSP which is separate from a computer, with all the modern features like Bluetooth and WISA (ETA pending) you could could consider the MiniDSP Flex 8; as I do, for prototyping.
https://www.minidsp.com/products/minidsp-in-a-box/minidsp-flex-eight
Vineeth is using a PC based crossover with a 8 channel audio interface. An excellent choice.
If you want to use a one-box external DSP which is separate from a computer, with all the modern features like Bluetooth and WISA (ETA pending) you could could consider the MiniDSP Flex 8; as I do, for prototyping.
https://www.minidsp.com/products/minidsp-in-a-box/minidsp-flex-eight
It will be interesting to see what you think, I have found that being able to get the bass right and giving priority to that is more important in getting better sound than giving in to intermodulation concerns. Of course if you can use proper woofers and separate midrange drivers you start to get the best of both worlds.I haven't tried this..
I tried this crossover today:
I think I like this one better than yesterday's crossover due to some subtle differences compared to yesterday's one.
Still too early to say much. But I think I will keep it for more time and listen and then decide..
I also noticed two more things
1) Bean bag and sofa seems to affect the amount of bass in the room..
This is how the speaker sees the area where I am sitting (on that sofa). When I move around the brown colored bean bag on the right side of the pic or the sofa, it seems to affect the low end extension...
2) The single woofer + horn configuration I had listened to at first seems to make the bass in the room linger around for more time (giving an impression of more bass if volume matched) compared to the dual woofer configuration I am playing around with now..
I think I like this one better than yesterday's crossover due to some subtle differences compared to yesterday's one.
Still too early to say much. But I think I will keep it for more time and listen and then decide..
I also noticed two more things
1) Bean bag and sofa seems to affect the amount of bass in the room..
This is how the speaker sees the area where I am sitting (on that sofa). When I move around the brown colored bean bag on the right side of the pic or the sofa, it seems to affect the low end extension...
2) The single woofer + horn configuration I had listened to at first seems to make the bass in the room linger around for more time (giving an impression of more bass if volume matched) compared to the dual woofer configuration I am playing around with now..
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Based on the wavcor mid+SB26CDC tweeter that fluid had designed the crossover for, I cooked up a 3way system including recent measurements for the Satori woofers. Here is how it looks like:
As the next step, I am going to listen and compare between above system and the ST260 horn based 2.5 way system and see which one I like better.. (in a room where is no treatment)
Here is a comparison of the graphs between the 2 systems (All solid lines are for ST260 based system)
Thanks
Vineeth
As the next step, I am going to listen and compare between above system and the ST260 horn based 2.5 way system and see which one I like better..
(in a room where is no treatment)Here is a comparison of the graphs between the 2 systems (All solid lines are for ST260 based system)
Thanks
Vineeth
Attachments
Thank you..
I am already more than halfway through printing the second waveguide and proper adaptors for the wavecor driver..
I will try to identify differences in both mono and stereo configurations ( aspects like tonality, soundstage, imaging)..
So the evaluations have begun..
I am getting accustomed to the below system now..
One more adaptor to print for the wavecor mid based 3 way system..
Just to avoid repetition, I am again not going to say that this system sounds even more amazing in stereo than in mono.. I can hear some instruments notes hanging around at a point between the speakers in 3D space and decaying at that point in some songs..
I am really enjoying this.. I will try and record with a better mic when both systems are ready and playing same music etc..
Thanks
Vineeth
I am getting accustomed to the below system now..
One more adaptor to print for the wavecor mid based 3 way system..
Just to avoid repetition, I am again not going to say that this system sounds even more amazing in stereo than in mono.. I can hear some instruments notes hanging around at a point between the speakers in 3D space and decaying at that point in some songs..
I am really enjoying this..
I will try and record with a better mic when both systems are ready and playing same music etc..Thanks
Vineeth
It probably doesn't do anything useful for sound, but just a thought... you have waveguides that are glued together. Why not rotate them 45 degrees, that would make both the horizontal and vertical plane as smooth as can be. The direction of the glue line would then point more at the room corners or at a 45 degree angle to the floor.
I'd opt for the most important sides (horizontal/vertical) to have the smoothest surface. But I'm known to be a little crazy.
I'd opt for the most important sides (horizontal/vertical) to have the smoothest surface
. But I'm known to be a little crazy.
^generalizing this more, quick sidetrack thought experiment, the same can be done for any multiway speaker. Polar response is "worst" the direction drivers are lined due to lobing, due to c-c spacing. Why not point that poo response of too wide c-c spacing to less important directions by tilting? compromise little horizontal response for little better vertical. This is the 1/4wl c-c rule, right, vertical stacked drivers have 0wl c-c on horizontal axis, which could be increased up to 1/4wl without penalty, or up to 1/3wl even.
Can we do this by tilting a speaker, how much we can decrease vertical c-c while increasing horizontal and not ruining it? Doing the math, tilting 45 degrees is about y=x=~0,7 on unit circle, so about ~0.47wl driver spacing with 45deg tilt would give roughly 0.33wl c-c on both vertical and horizontal axis. Or, if c-c is about 0.75wl due to physical constraints we would get vertical only down to ~0.5wl by tilting while making the horizontal response much worse from 0 to also ~0.5wl.
Carry on
Can we do this by tilting a speaker, how much we can decrease vertical c-c while increasing horizontal and not ruining it? Doing the math, tilting 45 degrees is about y=x=~0,7 on unit circle, so about ~0.47wl driver spacing with 45deg tilt would give roughly 0.33wl c-c on both vertical and horizontal axis. Or, if c-c is about 0.75wl due to physical constraints we would get vertical only down to ~0.5wl by tilting while making the horizontal response much worse from 0 to also ~0.5wl.
Carry on
If you think like that, the Danley Synergy starts to make even more sense, doesn't it? He tilted the speakers to bring them closer together (on the outside surface of the horn). Sort of a very close spaced MTM arrangement made possible by that tilted position. Which is why it is such a cool proposition because it works.
(sorry for going off topic)
(sorry for going off topic)
I have been spending some time with this crossover on the horn system (in 2 way config) for now:
To be honest I am really liking this system. My job pressure is restricting the time I get to work on this project but maybe by christmas time I would have determined which one I like more.. The wavecor system or this horn system.
Also, Kimmosto's comments on the ASR about how a 10inch woofer + 1 inch (titanium diagphragm) CD on a horn is sort of like the worst case scenario is making me wonder what I am missing... I want to know more about it.. Requesting everyone for opinions/comments about this aspect..
Thanks
Vineeth
To be honest I am really liking this system. My job pressure is restricting the time I get to work on this project but maybe by christmas time I would have determined which one I like more.. The wavecor system or this horn system.
Also, Kimmosto's comments on the ASR about how a 10inch woofer + 1 inch (titanium diagphragm) CD on a horn is sort of like the worst case scenario is making me wonder what I am missing...
I want to know more about it.. Requesting everyone for opinions/comments about this aspect.. Thanks
Vineeth
Cool
have you neasured and simulated each side or just one side? I found some differences on my speakers, micromanaged EQ is tailor fit to the measuremts and works only for the measured drivers and construct and could make the other side of stereo worse if its applied tgere too, unless measured and tweaked as well.
Then, using moving mic measurement with REW take response at listening position and tweak each speaker response close to each other if not. Also explore with tone, try find a "target curve" you like. Fix some boomy modes if possible, and so on. Now, there ought to be great sound
No comment on kimmosto remark, without knowing context
have you neasured and simulated each side or just one side? I found some differences on my speakers, micromanaged EQ is tailor fit to the measuremts and works only for the measured drivers and construct and could make the other side of stereo worse if its applied tgere too, unless measured and tweaked as well.
Then, using moving mic measurement with REW take response at listening position and tweak each speaker response close to each other if not. Also explore with tone, try find a "target curve" you like. Fix some boomy modes if possible, and so on. Now, there ought to be great sound
No comment on kimmosto remark, without knowing context
Hi @tmuikku,
I have only measured one side for crossover design. Especially the horn.
Beloware the in-room responses of both of the speakers taken close to my listening position about 2m away (I think). This is with mic pointing on each horn centre from its location midway between the speakers (speakers are toed in around 30 to 40 degrees) and kept like this sort of left speaker pointing closer to the right ear and right speaker pointing closer to the left ear
The pink curve is the right speaker and green one is the left speaker. Both are 1/6th octave smoothed.
Next is the gated far field measurement of the the left speaker taken about 1.3m away, on horn centre axis 1.4m up from the floor (room height is 2.8m) like this for the left speaker
Here is the 4.5ms gated measurement for the left speaker
I am enjoying the speakers as it is without even any room EQ at the moment
I dont actually know what EQ to dial in or which modes to cut in the above room responses... Please guide me about those aspects.
This was the comment from Kimmosto that I was talking about (In fact there is a lot of interesting discussion in that thread)
https://audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/neumann-kh150.33454/post-1364894
I have only measured one side for crossover design. Especially the horn.
Beloware the in-room responses of both of the speakers taken close to my listening position about 2m away (I think). This is with mic pointing on each horn centre from its location midway between the speakers (speakers are toed in around 30 to 40 degrees) and kept like this sort of left speaker pointing closer to the right ear and right speaker pointing closer to the left ear
The pink curve is the right speaker and green one is the left speaker. Both are 1/6th octave smoothed.
Next is the gated far field measurement of the the left speaker taken about 1.3m away, on horn centre axis 1.4m up from the floor (room height is 2.8m) like this for the left speaker
Here is the 4.5ms gated measurement for the left speaker
I am enjoying the speakers as it is without even any room EQ at the moment
I dont actually know what EQ to dial in or which modes to cut in the above room responses... Please guide me about those aspects.
This was the comment from Kimmosto that I was talking about (In fact there is a lot of interesting discussion in that thread)
https://audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/neumann-kh150.33454/post-1364894
Vineeth has 2x9" woofers, perhaps it has smoother vertical response than a single 10"+horn?
About 10 years ago k made several speakers with big horns and cardioid bass to get good sound at home (with minimal reflections), but later he noticed that investing on acoustics and wider smooth directivity speakers give more pleasant sound. This is my interpretation, he sometimes gives a bit mystical comments...
ps. I just read the ASR discussion about KH150, and yes k hates the "too high" directivity of big(gish) horns, at home.
About 10 years ago k made several speakers with big horns and cardioid bass to get good sound at home (with minimal reflections), but later he noticed that investing on acoustics and wider smooth directivity speakers give more pleasant sound. This is my interpretation, he sometimes gives a bit mystical comments...
ps. I just read the ASR discussion about KH150, and yes k hates the "too high" directivity of big(gish) horns, at home.
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Hi..Hello Vineeth,
So the st260 peereless combo is high passed 12 dB around 3500 hz and that merge smoothly to the 1350 SBAcoustics low pass, rigth ?
I'm too forwarding the suit
I would highly recommend that you follow @fluid's and others' advice regarding this horn+CD combo..
In my crossover shown in above post in a 2way config, crossover point is around 1200Hz. I guess it is better for the peerless CD to be crossed little higher from a technical consideration. Audibility-wise I have absolutely no issues so far. Maybe because I haven't listened to better drivers.
I initially bought peerless drivers since they were very very cheap in my area and for experimentation purposes.
After seeing Kimmosto's comment on the other thread, I wanted to try out a non-titanium diaphragm CD also to see how/if it changes sound when EQed to a similar frequency response overall.. In fact my own BMS 4550 drivers will reach me hopefully in a few weeks..
I also have a Faital pro 15PR400 and another 8inch midbass locally procured driver waiting in their boxes since long time.. so I may even experiment with those drivers either in a 2way or 3 way configuration with the ST260+ Peerless and/or ST260+ BMS combos..
I am just trying hard to avoid/fighting against my own mind in not buying a 12-inch driver like the 12PR320 or something like this..
https://diyaudiocart.com/SB-Audience-Rosso-12MW300-12-Mid-woofer
I really don't know why I am attracted so much to speakers, their drivers, the science behind them all, and the overall music-listening experiences on different systems.. It has sort of become like an addiction of late..
Regards
Vineeth