Ciare does tend to have untreated, lightweight and "lively " cones, a hit and miss more then some of the other brands.
Similar to PHL, where you gotta choose carefully since some of them have plenty of resonanances in the bandwidth.
Faital,Beyma, 18s tends to do a bit better in that regards, and response wise. But it is transducer dependent to specific models no matter where you look.
Some of the large PA mfgs, treat the cones, but primarily for water resistance, the added damping is sometimes done well or not.
They do not selectively damp resonances/termination issues with coating, Aquaplas etc. Nor do they use laser to measure/identify cone mode to damp them etc.
That is generally beholden to TAD, some JBL and Fostex, when it comes to 'PA' drivers, as you know.
Also 18 sound released they're 8NTLW/S 2000, some time ago.
With the 'differential drive' inside/outside wound voice coils, etc.
Got the output capability, and power handling. Promising low distortion and a very linear stroke/BL, but have not seen any measurements from third parties.
As for the 8NDL64, i believe @weltersys has some experience with them.
As for me the impedance curves from the 8NDL would make me look elsewhere unless i had more info on them.
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For that output and range maybe consider the good old JBL 2206. Very smooth clean midbass.
You despise science (which I don't envy you for). Yet you make a scientific argument that is also still valid.
It's nice that you've jumped over your shadow (does that phrase exist in English?). 🙂
Now we have to wait and see what the thread creator has to say about it.
Many greetings,
Michael
This one works nice in that range but probably not for your max level:
https://en.toutlehautparleur.com/br...aker-kartesian-wom200-vpa-s-8-ohm-8-inch.html
B&C 8MDN51 has better sensitivity and behaves >1kHz but also only 2" coil.
To be honest I would use a 10". These behave good at 900Hz and should still have little beaming off axis. Something like a PHL 3861?
B&C 10NSM76 would do the trick.
Btw - indoor or outdoor use? SPL doesn't fall off 6dB per doubling distance indoors!
https://en.toutlehautparleur.com/br...aker-kartesian-wom200-vpa-s-8-ohm-8-inch.html
B&C 8MDN51 has better sensitivity and behaves >1kHz but also only 2" coil.
But even the PHL ones can't deliver 124dBSpl. 8NSM64 would need a higher crossover.
To be honest I would use a 10". These behave good at 900Hz and should still have little beaming off axis. Something like a PHL 3861?
B&C 10NSM76 would do the trick.
Btw - indoor or outdoor use? SPL doesn't fall off 6dB per doubling distance indoors!
Here's another interesting driver I found which looks promising. At $85 it was worth the gamble and may be a good fit. Its definitely not the highest end driver out there but has a solid enough build to handle some abuse. I've hit it with a few minutes of 200 hz @ 20V rms to test it and it handled it well. No strange noises from the motor or suspension. Not many drivers can deal with this without complaining. Not bad for the price. TSPs are also very close to advertised specs. My only niggle so far is a little buzz from the lead wires which quieted right down with a few drops of contact adhesive at the terminals - no big deal.
The dustcap logos also have to go (big pet peave of mine). On this type of cone, I treat the dustcap and neck perimeter with latex damping compound to tame the 3.8k peak that gets worse off axis, typically found on light weight 8" paper cones like this (like the Beta 8A and 8PE21). It barely adds any weight or reduces efficiency, 1.5 grams at the most. Once cure, it can be measured to verify. The Beta 8A is a little better in this regard due to direct coupling of dustcap to VC.
The dustcap logos also have to go (big pet peave of mine). On this type of cone, I treat the dustcap and neck perimeter with latex damping compound to tame the 3.8k peak that gets worse off axis, typically found on light weight 8" paper cones like this (like the Beta 8A and 8PE21). It barely adds any weight or reduces efficiency, 1.5 grams at the most. Once cure, it can be measured to verify. The Beta 8A is a little better in this regard due to direct coupling of dustcap to VC.
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For kicks, I did a 100W sine sweep of 8PE21 and Beta 8A from 200 - 1k. Not nearly as clean as the DS18 performed when it came to motor noise or other artifacts. Mind you, these levels warrant hearing protection and literally make your teeth buzz. Its not a sophisticated test, but it will show any design flaws in driver build quality.
Some of the new 8" JBL cone mid drivers used with their matching WG setups are nice. A bit too expensive and large for my needs. They do perform very well.
I see a few offerings from 18sound, which have the split VC windings like the B&C 12MH32. Their response looks a little rough except for the larger 10NMB420. That one deserves some closer attention.
I wish the 8MDN51 would handle more power. It sounds better than most drivers of this size. I may take a chance and try it, since the mounting dimensions are the same for most other B&C 8s out there. I'm very critical of the lower midbass area. It defines the vocal clarity of most music and has to sound transparent without any resonances. A larger cone driver and/or the help of horn loading would be very beneficial in my situation but physically prohibitive. This is for a semi-portable monitor using a custom 3" mid dome and Bliesma T34B tweeter, both in WGs. The midbass has to be smooth and clean out to 800+ hz. I can't compromise that range for many reasons, mainly to reproduce piano and vocals precisely without any hint of strain or coloration. Hence the search for the elusive unicorn high output 8" midbass.
Some of the new 8" JBL cone mid drivers used with their matching WG setups are nice. A bit too expensive and large for my needs. They do perform very well.
I see a few offerings from 18sound, which have the split VC windings like the B&C 12MH32. Their response looks a little rough except for the larger 10NMB420. That one deserves some closer attention.
I wish the 8MDN51 would handle more power. It sounds better than most drivers of this size. I may take a chance and try it, since the mounting dimensions are the same for most other B&C 8s out there. I'm very critical of the lower midbass area. It defines the vocal clarity of most music and has to sound transparent without any resonances. A larger cone driver and/or the help of horn loading would be very beneficial in my situation but physically prohibitive. This is for a semi-portable monitor using a custom 3" mid dome and Bliesma T34B tweeter, both in WGs. The midbass has to be smooth and clean out to 800+ hz. I can't compromise that range for many reasons, mainly to reproduce piano and vocals precisely without any hint of strain or coloration. Hence the search for the elusive unicorn high output 8" midbass.
@IamJF mainly will be used indoors in medium sized rooms for educational music playback of various types. Semi- portable for sure. Needs to cleanly and accurately reproduce a drum kit at close to full volume transients with very low coloration / distortion, along with any other type of acoustic music and vocals. It essentially will be a poor mans version of a larger ATC monitor setup. An average PA setup or pair of monitors won't cut it. They're all ether not clean or loud enough. The drivers are chosen for best compromise between absolute SQ, output capacity and portability. We rented some larger ATCs which sounded by far the best compared to any other pro audio type solution we tried. The mid domes are being built with inverted large format compression drivers (more details on those later). The T34B speaks for itself (after managing to put them back together from their rough ride in shipping - lol.)
If the 8NDL51 is available in 4 ohms, it could have the voltage sensitivity I need, but the 2" VC may be an issue. Its one of the few midbass drivers that has the very low distortion I'm after. It just sounds right and doesn't flatter lower quality recordings.
Can one still get the Eminence LA8-CNMB? It's efficient and high power handling (2.5" coil). If looks matter the dustcap makes it look cheap from the front, though the back end looks top tier.
https://www.toutlehautparleur.com/media/catalog/product/datasheet/eminence/LA8-CNMB-8.pdf
https://www.toutlehautparleur.com/media/catalog/product/datasheet/eminence/LA8-CNMB-8.pdf
The Eminence LA8-CNMB isn't sensitive enough in the 8 ohm version. It also has too much distortion around 500 hz and stored energy issues. It suffers from spider resonances like the LA8.
Eminence also had some problems with the same 2.5" VCs used in the delta pro series. The lead wire going under the VC former would separate with hard use. No clue if they straightened that issue out already. They would fail the same way in the deltalite II neo drivers. The best VC setup Eminence has is the inside/outside wound 3" fiberglass type used in the kappalite coax drivers. Those are very good and rather forgiving to thermal abuse. They had to use those to make up for the lack of reinforcement from a solid dustcap. The flimsy polyimide VC formers they usually use have too much flex which leads to radial resonances and stability issues.
Eminence also had some problems with the same 2.5" VCs used in the delta pro series. The lead wire going under the VC former would separate with hard use. No clue if they straightened that issue out already. They would fail the same way in the deltalite II neo drivers. The best VC setup Eminence has is the inside/outside wound 3" fiberglass type used in the kappalite coax drivers. Those are very good and rather forgiving to thermal abuse. They had to use those to make up for the lack of reinforcement from a solid dustcap. The flimsy polyimide VC formers they usually use have too much flex which leads to radial resonances and stability issues.
@kipman725 Acoustic lenses like that can create issues with diffraction and smaller resonances. I've experimented with some of those and never got clean enougj FR and CSD. Its a clever idea, but just not suitable for my needs.
https://www.bluearan.co.uk/index.php?id=SONMR8XTN what about horn loading a driver with a short horn, this almost meets your requirments.
Btw what woofers/alignment are you using ?
I’ve always found that the woofers are the limiting step; rarely the midrange.
As with most systems I’ve built; it tends to be the woofer system (ie. 40Hz to 300Hz) that tends to limit the system’s maximum dynamic range.
Do you really need 110dB at the LP (~123dB @1m?)
Even THX/Dolby reference levels only call for 105dB @ the listening position. I have a system that is ~ 2.5dB short of that, and I don’t for a moment think I need more.
So IME I think the THX/Dolby reference level is a very considered / scientific position, and doesn’t need exceeding.
I’ve always found that the woofers are the limiting step; rarely the midrange.
As with most systems I’ve built; it tends to be the woofer system (ie. 40Hz to 300Hz) that tends to limit the system’s maximum dynamic range.
Do you really need 110dB at the LP (~123dB @1m?)
Even THX/Dolby reference levels only call for 105dB @ the listening position. I have a system that is ~ 2.5dB short of that, and I don’t for a moment think I need more.
So IME I think the THX/Dolby reference level is a very considered / scientific position, and doesn’t need exceeding.
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This is the only forum in which I diss science. Can you actually 'hear' the difference in the specs you obsess over? When I was a youth, before I knew better, we would discuss (ad infinitum) the Golf GTi vs the XR3i vs the Astra GTE. The Ford was cheapest, The VW, the most fun, the Vauxhall had the highest top speed. In practical use they all performed the same. In our defence we were considering an investment of £15,000.
Bygones.
They're all on the scrapheap now.
Bygones.
They're all on the scrapheap now.
@tktran303 I'm going to use 2 x SB 34NRXL75-8 woofers in a vented alignment, 90l each. Combined gain is 5 dB over 91 dB after BSC. System sensitivity is 96dB @ 2.83V and 4 ohm net impedance. Theyre more than capable of 120 dB peaks at 1m above 40 hz.