Thanks Sreten,
I think I've 'got it'. For a coil in the midrange xo section , the DCR could be higher than a coil in the bass xo section
due to higher power consumed by the woofer. This sounds right to me, so I hope it is right., grant
I think I've 'got it'. For a coil in the midrange xo section , the DCR could be higher than a coil in the bass xo section
due to higher power consumed by the woofer. This sounds right to me, so I hope it is right., grant
Sreten, thanks!
Unfortunately, today I had a big setback - the library PC is no longer available, so I can't use the FRC Tools anymore. I had hoped to try to sim your suggestion for the 3wayClassic xo and also to try to
modify the PMS vs5 xo in simulations, to see what looked best but now I'm stuck. Arrgh!
Now I have to 'bite the bullet' and consider my options. Aw, hell, lol, just buy the drivers when I can and make the best of it!....Yourself and Tinitus seem to get great results without simming. Maybe I can
very partially emulate some of your success! cheers, grant
Unfortunately, today I had a big setback - the library PC is no longer available, so I can't use the FRC Tools anymore. I had hoped to try to sim your suggestion for the 3wayClassic xo and also to try to
modify the PMS vs5 xo in simulations, to see what looked best but now I'm stuck. Arrgh!
Now I have to 'bite the bullet' and consider my options. Aw, hell, lol, just buy the drivers when I can and make the best of it!....Yourself and Tinitus seem to get great results without simming. Maybe I can
very partially emulate some of your success! cheers, grant
To obtain fair result by listening is possible - but great result will take "forever", and I only do it because its fun and have no other option, but it has develloped into a sort of hobby - and I must say that it turned really good when I got a real good flawless amp to tell me what to do
No speaker is perfect, and I would really like to hear a DIY speaker from experienced designers - how good are they really, there are very few reports from builders, but you can also ask how good does it have to be to satisfy you
Sure, it would be really nice to see some of Sretens work
edit.. a major problem is to have enough components to choose from
No speaker is perfect, and I would really like to hear a DIY speaker from experienced designers - how good are they really, there are very few reports from builders, but you can also ask how good does it have to be to satisfy you
Sure, it would be really nice to see some of Sretens work
edit.. a major problem is to have enough components to choose from
Tinitus..............Sure......I'll go along with that..............Crossover parts arrived.............I have ordered additional resistors and capacitors to do the tweaking by ear if need be, as you speak of...........My amplifier isn't the best, but it will have to suffice, for now......It is reported to put out 100 Watts, but who's to know for sure..........I look forward to the day I get to report my findings...........Very soon..........This is a project we all have been involved in......You, Grant, and Sreten at least on this thread.........amongst many others, too many to mention........Grant continues his research and experimentation, and with a great deal of tenacity, and I am optimistic for him.........Stay in touch.................Respectfully.............Omni
Hi guys!
Tinitus,
Its encouraging to learn from your experience that tweaking by listening to achieve a 'fair' result is possible. I'm glad, because that would be very satisfactory to me! Well at least for the 'medium term' anyway. *IF* I had the expertise and resources, I would gladly sim your drivers/boxes for you! You make a good point on published designs. I haven't heard any of them either! Its just pure trust. However, the sheer number of positive responses to sites like Troels, Zaph, Tony Gee and Roman Bednarek (no order) indicates they are very popular.
Re: 'flawless amp'....what is it please? I have a very old (repaired) Technics integrated Class A 100W/channel amp, (uses 1kW!)
which sounds really nice to me and also a slightly newer (also repaired) Harmon Kardon 50W 'high current' amp, but the mids
sound a little subdued (flat?) compared to the Technics.
Omni,
Thanks for your kind words...but I'm just a 'plodder', lol. Looking forward to 'hearing' Frankie. cheers, guys, grant
Tinitus,
Its encouraging to learn from your experience that tweaking by listening to achieve a 'fair' result is possible. I'm glad, because that would be very satisfactory to me! Well at least for the 'medium term' anyway. *IF* I had the expertise and resources, I would gladly sim your drivers/boxes for you! You make a good point on published designs. I haven't heard any of them either! Its just pure trust. However, the sheer number of positive responses to sites like Troels, Zaph, Tony Gee and Roman Bednarek (no order) indicates they are very popular.
Re: 'flawless amp'....what is it please? I have a very old (repaired) Technics integrated Class A 100W/channel amp, (uses 1kW!)
which sounds really nice to me and also a slightly newer (also repaired) Harmon Kardon 50W 'high current' amp, but the mids
sound a little subdued (flat?) compared to the Technics.
Omni,
Thanks for your kind words...but I'm just a 'plodder', lol. Looking forward to 'hearing' Frankie. cheers, guys, grant
Friends.
I'm new to this thread, so first things first: hi everybody! Hope you have better weather than I got here.
As to simulating vs. listening:don't believe in sims too much. Nice if you build for people you'll never meet, but remember that you build for yourself! Your living-room has much more influence on the result than a few mH and yF can have - and there's always the little matter of listening habits and personal taste.
When you can afford to have your clothes tailormade (and that's EXACTLY what you do when DIY your HiFi) there will be half a dozen visits to your tailor until they achieve that perfect fit nothing off the peg can match, and you can do even better with your speakers.
Leaving the Xover outside the cab is a good idea from a technical point of view anyway (microphony), so take it from there. Just clamp critical parts together instead of soldering them right away - that will be the mid/high section - and keep tinkering until you are really happy.
My longest gestation period was with a pair of Schmacks horns...I kept at it for four years and would still be at it hadn't I had to give them away. Who of the people buying boxes "as off stock" can afford such luxury?
Pit
I'm new to this thread, so first things first: hi everybody! Hope you have better weather than I got here.
As to simulating vs. listening:don't believe in sims too much. Nice if you build for people you'll never meet, but remember that you build for yourself! Your living-room has much more influence on the result than a few mH and yF can have - and there's always the little matter of listening habits and personal taste.
When you can afford to have your clothes tailormade (and that's EXACTLY what you do when DIY your HiFi) there will be half a dozen visits to your tailor until they achieve that perfect fit nothing off the peg can match, and you can do even better with your speakers.
Leaving the Xover outside the cab is a good idea from a technical point of view anyway (microphony), so take it from there. Just clamp critical parts together instead of soldering them right away - that will be the mid/high section - and keep tinkering until you are really happy.
My longest gestation period was with a pair of Schmacks horns...I kept at it for four years and would still be at it hadn't I had to give them away. Who of the people buying boxes "as off stock" can afford such luxury?
PitWhat can I say, .... to try and achieve the perfect can eventually end up much worse than...
well, you have to have a goal, some idea about which sound you want, which equipment used and then select the drivers carefully from that
How to do it,... well, I guess even some of the most critical and experienced might not get there at all
Thats why they keep on doing it
I think those masters sometimes design too many speakers instead of making longterm improvements on the existing
Maybe they believe so much in measurements, that they think it cannot be better
At some point measurements can restrain further devellopment
Its been wellknown in amp design fore years
I have experienced it several times - as soon as you have instruments to measure, you dare not do anything that is deverging
You let instruments make the decisions, which is not very good
And instruments can easily be wrong, there are many factors involved, such as microphone calibrere to mention one
And even the finest measurement software is still a computer calculation
Try figure it like marsial(?) art, you know when a fighter comes to the point where his zen master ask him to catch a flie with his eyes closed
Impossible, well maybe, but then you dont believe in "chi" either, but those who practise it do
Maybe thats why we need a mentor, to make us believe in the impossible
But to expliot what you can do, its really important to know the limitations as well as the possibilities
well, you have to have a goal, some idea about which sound you want, which equipment used and then select the drivers carefully from that
How to do it,... well, I guess even some of the most critical and experienced might not get there at all
Thats why they keep on doing it
I think those masters sometimes design too many speakers instead of making longterm improvements on the existing
Maybe they believe so much in measurements, that they think it cannot be better
At some point measurements can restrain further devellopment
Its been wellknown in amp design fore years
I have experienced it several times - as soon as you have instruments to measure, you dare not do anything that is deverging
You let instruments make the decisions, which is not very good
And instruments can easily be wrong, there are many factors involved, such as microphone calibrere to mention one
And even the finest measurement software is still a computer calculation
Try figure it like marsial(?) art, you know when a fighter comes to the point where his zen master ask him to catch a flie with his eyes closed
Impossible, well maybe, but then you dont believe in "chi" either, but those who practise it do
Maybe thats why we need a mentor, to make us believe in the impossible
But to expliot what you can do, its really important to know the limitations as well as the possibilities
A small exsample
If I come to your place and listen to your stereo
If I would say "it sounds like ****", then afterwards you would be listening, and not like it at all
On the other hand if my comment was "fantastic sound", you would feel happy and like the music even more than ever
A good setup will let you listen to the music completely forgetting the flaws, which will allways be there
Those "perfect" setups are mostly really only very boring
Does that help you much, well really not... its a long road with lots of training, there are no really shortcuts
Its about finding a level and start from there... and keep on trying, and learning, like playing a music instrument
If I come to your place and listen to your stereo
If I would say "it sounds like ****", then afterwards you would be listening, and not like it at all
On the other hand if my comment was "fantastic sound", you would feel happy and like the music even more than ever
A good setup will let you listen to the music completely forgetting the flaws, which will allways be there
Those "perfect" setups are mostly really only very boring
Does that help you much, well really not... its a long road with lots of training, there are no really shortcuts
Its about finding a level and start from there... and keep on trying, and learning, like playing a music instrument
Hi tinitus,
nothing going at the moment - I have to find a lot of money to buy a lot of ply first. Unfortunately I have fallen in love with a plan by Dave (planet10) and Scott (Scottmoose). Go to Dave's www.frugal-horn.com and look for the Sachico. Might take some time until I can afford to start building...and my neighbors will probably shoot me anyway - they don't like the sound of a table saw at three in the morning.
Pit
nothing going at the moment - I have to find a lot of money to buy a lot of ply first. Unfortunately I have fallen in love with a plan by Dave (planet10) and Scott (Scottmoose). Go to Dave's www.frugal-horn.com and look for the Sachico. Might take some time until I can afford to start building...and my neighbors will probably shoot me anyway - they don't like the sound of a table saw at three in the morning.
PitAnd a nice little tube amp
I am building a 4-way with two ribbons - but I will probably end with a fullrange too, and I started my career with one, back to square one, kind of od isnt it
I am building a 4-way with two ribbons - but I will probably end with a fullrange too, and I started my career with one, back to square one, kind of od isnt it
Grant, whats it gonna be - shall we convinse you to try something different design
Apart from helping Omni, and learning sims, which ofcourse has been a good thing....your project is still on hold ...what shall we do about it .... apart from giving you a sack of money
Apart from helping Omni, and learning sims, which ofcourse has been a good thing....your project is still on hold ...what shall we do about it .... apart from giving you a sack of money
Well, a sack of money would be nice - but I can wait until I can afford the wood, no problem. If my fingers itch too much in the meantime I can always start tweaking the drivers or sit at the PC and meet nice people. (Btw, all of you, get yourself Jajah - it's a jolly good thing for the moments when explaining per telephone is easier than typing).
Pit
Pit
Hi Pit,
Welcome and thanks for your great advice re tweaking and sims. Jajah looks good too.
Tinitus,
I loved your comment about the zen master and the fly! Re: 'a good setup' and forgetting the flaws, this 'sounds' good to me! I'd love a sack of money thanks! lol Yes its still on hold unfortunately, mostly due to unexpected bills. Well I got some good advice from Sreten about modifying the PMS. It still looks very favourable to me. Just out of curiosity, what alternate design did you have in mind? thanks, grant
Welcome and thanks for your great advice re tweaking and sims. Jajah looks good too.
Tinitus,
I loved your comment about the zen master and the fly! Re: 'a good setup' and forgetting the flaws, this 'sounds' good to me! I'd love a sack of money thanks! lol Yes its still on hold unfortunately, mostly due to unexpected bills. Well I got some good advice from Sreten about modifying the PMS. It still looks very favourable to me. Just out of curiosity, what alternate design did you have in mind? thanks, grant
Hi Grant, sorry for delay
Well, sometimes when I talk too much, it often ends in rubbish
Design options, not sure - I reckon your projekt is still to use what you have and use a better mid, and thats nice
I dont deny that there could be some benefit from XO low
But its not easy to get right
I think I would still use a full/widerange mid and play with a higher xo point
Planet 10, Dave and his friends are really creative at the moment, making all sorts of horns
You could choose one of the small drivers they like so much
If it dont work as midrange in your project, you can always build a horn that suits
I am not talking you into horn building, and you may even hate it
Not sure at the moment - but maybe Fostex FE 107e could work with xo 500/10khz, 6db xo
Well, sometimes when I talk too much, it often ends in rubbish
Design options, not sure - I reckon your projekt is still to use what you have and use a better mid, and thats nice
I dont deny that there could be some benefit from XO low
But its not easy to get right
I think I would still use a full/widerange mid and play with a higher xo point
Planet 10, Dave and his friends are really creative at the moment, making all sorts of horns
You could choose one of the small drivers they like so much
If it dont work as midrange in your project, you can always build a horn that suits
I am not talking you into horn building, and you may even hate it
Not sure at the moment - but maybe Fostex FE 107e could work with xo 500/10khz, 6db xo
Forgot, The small TangBand seems very popular
W3-871S or W4-654S looks nice, the lower sensitivity may be a better match for your woofer
Or W3-1364S / W4-1320SB
But I admit I havent heard any of them, and to choose the right mid driver just like that can be quite a puzzle
either the Fostex or W4-654S, maybe - and I might do some tweaking to get it right, and that too is a poker game
W3-871S or W4-654S looks nice, the lower sensitivity may be a better match for your woofer
Or W3-1364S / W4-1320SB
But I admit I havent heard any of them, and to choose the right mid driver just like that can be quite a puzzle
either the Fostex or W4-654S, maybe - and I might do some tweaking to get it right, and that too is a poker game
Thinking of your amps
CSS FR125 has a very nice pleasing midrange quality
Its low efficient, but you might gain a little only using it as mid
Yes I think it might be worth a try
CSS FR125 has a very nice pleasing midrange quality
Its low efficient, but you might gain a little only using it as mid
Yes I think it might be worth a try
Hi Tinitus,
I'm also sorry for the delay in replying to you! (thunderstorms here for several days)
You make good sense to me , my friend, thank you very much for your comments! Much appreciated!
Yes, my existing mid is my biggest problem - I just don't like it! From all the ones I 'researched' (lol), (I have to give Sreten credit here for discovering it for me! ) the Seas MCA15 looks the best, then I might as well replace the tweeter , hence the Seas 27TFFC , its available here and affordable. And, Troels has done an excellent design , imho, using these drivers, in the 'PMS'. So that will be my final choice
to try to modify. This is not to say that I don't value your input here - I truly do. But I think I will be best served at this stage by choosing available (in Au) M and T drivers in well documented designs. Its just my 2 cents worth, thats all, and what I feel most 'comfortable' doing right now.
My project seems to have taken an inexorable amount of time already and I am sure I've chosen good drivers, so I really need to finally get started, and get building. The added complexity of trying to understand the other designs you mentioned would be well beyond me at this stage, unfortunately. However, I'm sure they all really sound terrific. cheers , many thanks and best regards, grant
I'm also sorry for the delay in replying to you! (thunderstorms here for several days)
You make good sense to me , my friend, thank you very much for your comments! Much appreciated!
Yes, my existing mid is my biggest problem - I just don't like it! From all the ones I 'researched' (lol), (I have to give Sreten credit here for discovering it for me! ) the Seas MCA15 looks the best, then I might as well replace the tweeter , hence the Seas 27TFFC , its available here and affordable. And, Troels has done an excellent design , imho, using these drivers, in the 'PMS'. So that will be my final choice
to try to modify. This is not to say that I don't value your input here - I truly do. But I think I will be best served at this stage by choosing available (in Au) M and T drivers in well documented designs. Its just my 2 cents worth, thats all, and what I feel most 'comfortable' doing right now.
My project seems to have taken an inexorable amount of time already and I am sure I've chosen good drivers, so I really need to finally get started, and get building. The added complexity of trying to understand the other designs you mentioned would be well beyond me at this stage, unfortunately. However, I'm sure they all really sound terrific. cheers , many thanks and best regards, grant
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