Thanks Tinitus, I wasn't considering buying the TB's unless there was a very compelling reason to do so, that is, brilliant performance at a bargain price. My question was mainly out of curiosity how good the coaxials with built-in crossovers really are...which you have answered..thanks! I guess they do have a specific application. Thanks for the info on the W4 and also 'underhung voice coil' info...
By the way...are you still designing a new 3-way? ,grant
By the way...are you still designing a new 3-way? ,grant
Hi,
just note the TB's with "built in crossover" would only be useful in a
car, built into a wall or used on a large (presumably open) baffle.
Otherwise for normal boxes they are a mistake waiting to happen.
🙂/sreten.
just note the TB's with "built in crossover" would only be useful in a
car, built into a wall or used on a large (presumably open) baffle.
Otherwise for normal boxes they are a mistake waiting to happen.
🙂/sreten.
Hi Sreten, thanks ..the 'penny dropped'! (again - lol)
The TB coaxials seem very much like the ones in the Car Audio Ads in the Sunday papers! As you say, they're designed for cars.
But the W4-1337's as reviewed is a good mid/full range, however the MCA15(or 12) are still tops imho performance/pricewise. Its embarrassing that I'm .still. saving up for them! Oh well, we got flooded out here in the recent storms. I think there were huge floods in Brighton recently? grant
The TB coaxials seem very much like the ones in the Car Audio Ads in the Sunday papers! As you say, they're designed for cars.
But the W4-1337's as reviewed is a good mid/full range, however the MCA15(or 12) are still tops imho performance/pricewise. Its embarrassing that I'm .still. saving up for them! Oh well, we got flooded out here in the recent storms. I think there were huge floods in Brighton recently? grant
Grant, 3way ... I am considering a 2way instead with the 12" I have and a small fullrange
I have thought about the small Jordan, but not sure if its worth the money and the W4 Ti could be another option, but it might need a supertweeter
My main project (long term) is a 4way with 15" or 18" and a homemade 6", and 2 diy ribbons
I have most parts, it "just" needs assembling
But with the latest improvements on my present speaker, I am in no hurry ... that would be kind of the backside of being satisfied with the present 🙂
BTW ... my latest improvement is this "notch"(?) ... I use it on bass filter, but it might work elsewhere too ... at least on my speaker its very clear that it dont have the artefacts(?) of a normal "notch", very smooth and soft ... maybe you can try it in a simulation
-------------inductor------------
-------resistor------cap--------
Inductor is in series, and "shunted" with the res/cap
I dont seem to be able to upload from my paint programme anymore, so I hope this will do
I have thought about the small Jordan, but not sure if its worth the money and the W4 Ti could be another option, but it might need a supertweeter
My main project (long term) is a 4way with 15" or 18" and a homemade 6", and 2 diy ribbons
I have most parts, it "just" needs assembling
But with the latest improvements on my present speaker, I am in no hurry ... that would be kind of the backside of being satisfied with the present 🙂
BTW ... my latest improvement is this "notch"(?) ... I use it on bass filter, but it might work elsewhere too ... at least on my speaker its very clear that it dont have the artefacts(?) of a normal "notch", very smooth and soft ... maybe you can try it in a simulation
-------------inductor------------
-------resistor------cap--------
Inductor is in series, and "shunted" with the res/cap
I dont seem to be able to upload from my paint programme anymore, so I hope this will do
Tinitus, Frankie sings along, and some break in phenomenon is occuring, like a kids voice that changes as he is getting older............Heres the latest on his sound.........Instrumentals are excellent, bass is tight and deep.......Detail is ever present, and the imaging seems to be clarifying................However guitars are appearing to become forward, which then pushes the vocals somewhat back in the soundstage........Not a total drowning out of the vocals, but certainly a noticable imbalance...........I am not sure if it is my listening room or perhaps if there is a peak somewhere starting to reveal itself..........What are your thoughts............Grant, and Sreten..........If you guys have any insights here, feel free to chime in.......................Omni
Hi Omni, good to hear !
Well, I have been through some of what you describes regarding problems with soundstage precision
I once blamed my electronics, and others blamed the recordings, but along with my latest experiences I dare say that its neither of those
My bet is that its a very small imbalance somewhere,
Your simulation may show perfection, but in reality it may not be so
Someone once told me to look at it like a big perfect lawn, then throw in a small white cloth, and the cloth will draw all your attention
And what does this really mean ... well, to me it means that the closer you get to perfection the bigger the problems seems, thus gets more problematic to solve
My way of getting the last bit of sound out of the speaker is kind of like if you would have to approach an enemy stronger than yourself, which would not be a frontal attack, but more like walking around in circles, approaching bit by bit
In real terms this would mean that to solve the actual problem, there are most likely other small problems that would need to be solved first
What you want is natural and correct imaging and soundstage, with everything in its right place, which I think is the most tricky part, and just the slightest imbalance can ruin the whole thing, but when its right you get ambiense and "air" ... at some point I had more "air" in one channel than the other, which lead to some part of some instruments was dragged to one side, which to me was really irritating
Fore a long time I couldnt solve it, and I know it sounds strange, but the remedy that made the last bit was the above "notch" on woofer
So what can you do ? ... not so easy, and as explained above it could lead to a lot of changes, which in worst case could lead nowhere at all
I dont remember your sim graphs or xo values
1. Do you have an RC on tweeter
2. You may need a series "notch" on midrange (in paralel with driver)
3. And it may sound strange, but you may need a "notch" on woofer too ( you could try the curcuit I have mentioned in my prvious post )
4. The above points is proposed to avoid "blind" adjustments to existing xo ... and I dare not suggest coating of midrange center dome
5. About reversed driver polarity ... I have learned to reverse only midrange
Sorry fore a long and confused post
Well, I have been through some of what you describes regarding problems with soundstage precision
I once blamed my electronics, and others blamed the recordings, but along with my latest experiences I dare say that its neither of those
My bet is that its a very small imbalance somewhere,
Your simulation may show perfection, but in reality it may not be so
Someone once told me to look at it like a big perfect lawn, then throw in a small white cloth, and the cloth will draw all your attention
And what does this really mean ... well, to me it means that the closer you get to perfection the bigger the problems seems, thus gets more problematic to solve
My way of getting the last bit of sound out of the speaker is kind of like if you would have to approach an enemy stronger than yourself, which would not be a frontal attack, but more like walking around in circles, approaching bit by bit
In real terms this would mean that to solve the actual problem, there are most likely other small problems that would need to be solved first
What you want is natural and correct imaging and soundstage, with everything in its right place, which I think is the most tricky part, and just the slightest imbalance can ruin the whole thing, but when its right you get ambiense and "air" ... at some point I had more "air" in one channel than the other, which lead to some part of some instruments was dragged to one side, which to me was really irritating
Fore a long time I couldnt solve it, and I know it sounds strange, but the remedy that made the last bit was the above "notch" on woofer
So what can you do ? ... not so easy, and as explained above it could lead to a lot of changes, which in worst case could lead nowhere at all
I dont remember your sim graphs or xo values
1. Do you have an RC on tweeter
2. You may need a series "notch" on midrange (in paralel with driver)
3. And it may sound strange, but you may need a "notch" on woofer too ( you could try the curcuit I have mentioned in my prvious post )
4. The above points is proposed to avoid "blind" adjustments to existing xo ... and I dare not suggest coating of midrange center dome
5. About reversed driver polarity ... I have learned to reverse only midrange
Sorry fore a long and confused post
Tinitus, You described accurately, the whole scenario............Tomorrow, I will post a picture of the crossover diagram, and if I can find it, the corresponding response graph from the simulation................Notching the woofer was a concept that I just read about in that sometimes a speaker builder can think the problem exists in the midrange, but the reality points to the woofer..............So you are not so far fetched afterall..........I am gonna approach this carefully, as you describe, so look for the info here, shortly...................I love long and confused posts............It gives me more to sort out...................Omni
tinitus said:
Hi,
It can be a "notch" filter if R is relatively low. It will correct a bump
in the passband of a woofer. To suppress artifacts above the c/o
point that interference with the midrange proper a parallel to
the driver series circuit is usually used, an eliptical filter.
🙂/sreten.
omni said:
Hi,
First you need some reference recordings you can trust. Sound quality
is not directly an issue, its more they are "honest" recordings without
any undue emphasis or processing.
I also then have a couple of recordings with "problems", in my system
it is a tendency to sibilance with certain recordings, noting that this is
mainly the recordings fault, but I want my system to be fairly tolerant
of some excess, even if it reduces top-end "bite".
I find my test CD extremely useful, 1/3 octave bands and 1/3
octave sliding warble tones, for picking out peaks and dips,
less so for overall balance bass to treble.
I would experiment with tweeter levels, matching to the mid.
Overall balance I tend to modify at line level, with simple shelving.
🙂/sreten.
Tinitus,
2-way with 12" and a full range seems great and fairly easy! I really like your idea there. So much so that I am now seriously considering the TB-W4-1337SA as a mid/tweeter with my Vifa 10inch P25's
crossed at 200-250. The advantage of the TB W4 is mostly for me purely financial...it saves me the cost of 2 tweeters and lots of extra xo parts, and besides Zaph gave it a good review. $54 US at Parts Express. The wide response might possibly allow a 1st order series with the P25 and some filtering from 7kHz+. This might be heresy..lol...but I have to minimize costs. The P25 and W4 SPL at about 220Hz is about 88dB so maybe they could be a good match? Power matching might be ok too, the W4 is rated 20-50W max but
Zaph's T/S says 20W..hmm, so I'm not real sure about this. Thanks for 'putting me on to' TangBand. Good luck with your 4-way and diy ribbons! DIY ribbons - thats serious committment! Thanks for your 'notch' info and I really enjoyed your post #686! Thanks!
Omni,
Hmm. Very interesting! Please take all of what I say with a grain of salt because I really don't know! ....but...The symptoms you are describing .may?. be very slightly similar to what I encountered in my last unsuccessful crossover. Could it be that your crossover is 'wandering'? That is (from my very limited knowledge) ...are your
drivers 'seeing' a stable impedance? From what I've read, if the driver doesn't 'see' a 'stable and matched' (LPad) Z, then it wanders with subsequent problems. From you email, your measurement idea seems rock solid. Also maybe play some pink-noise(white?) through only both mids then woofers etc ..maybe that would help?
The only other thing I can think of is that your inductors might be too closely coupled? But as Tinitus and Sreten said it could be due to other esoteric? things. Your problem , to me, doesn't seem like a 'room-loading' issue. Maybe poor placement and too small/big a room would only affect bass extension and level? I'm only trying to help as you know.. but all of this could be an irrelevant 'dust storm'! lol, I hope not. As mentioned above to Tinitus I'm now seriously considering the TangBand W4..but only IF the power and response matches the P25's.
Sreten,
I 'chop-and-change' a lot! ..as you know, but its fun learning! Thanks for your continued input and unwavering support for this thread over many months. Very much appreciated indeed.
Paging Andy Graddon! I hope you don't mind! Would you have any ideas on the TB-W4 and P25 in series-xo?
www.tb-speaker.com/detail/1230_04/w4-1337sa.htm www.sea.vg/vifa/P25WO-00-08.pdf ....... many thanks, grant
2-way with 12" and a full range seems great and fairly easy! I really like your idea there. So much so that I am now seriously considering the TB-W4-1337SA as a mid/tweeter with my Vifa 10inch P25's
crossed at 200-250. The advantage of the TB W4 is mostly for me purely financial...it saves me the cost of 2 tweeters and lots of extra xo parts, and besides Zaph gave it a good review. $54 US at Parts Express. The wide response might possibly allow a 1st order series with the P25 and some filtering from 7kHz+. This might be heresy..lol...but I have to minimize costs. The P25 and W4 SPL at about 220Hz is about 88dB so maybe they could be a good match? Power matching might be ok too, the W4 is rated 20-50W max but
Zaph's T/S says 20W..hmm, so I'm not real sure about this. Thanks for 'putting me on to' TangBand. Good luck with your 4-way and diy ribbons! DIY ribbons - thats serious committment! Thanks for your 'notch' info and I really enjoyed your post #686! Thanks!
Omni,
Hmm. Very interesting! Please take all of what I say with a grain of salt because I really don't know! ....but...The symptoms you are describing .may?. be very slightly similar to what I encountered in my last unsuccessful crossover. Could it be that your crossover is 'wandering'? That is (from my very limited knowledge) ...are your
drivers 'seeing' a stable impedance? From what I've read, if the driver doesn't 'see' a 'stable and matched' (LPad) Z, then it wanders with subsequent problems. From you email, your measurement idea seems rock solid. Also maybe play some pink-noise(white?) through only both mids then woofers etc ..maybe that would help?
The only other thing I can think of is that your inductors might be too closely coupled? But as Tinitus and Sreten said it could be due to other esoteric? things. Your problem , to me, doesn't seem like a 'room-loading' issue. Maybe poor placement and too small/big a room would only affect bass extension and level? I'm only trying to help as you know.. but all of this could be an irrelevant 'dust storm'! lol, I hope not. As mentioned above to Tinitus I'm now seriously considering the TangBand W4..but only IF the power and response matches the P25's.
Sreten,
I 'chop-and-change' a lot! ..as you know, but its fun learning! Thanks for your continued input and unwavering support for this thread over many months. Very much appreciated indeed.
Paging Andy Graddon! I hope you don't mind! Would you have any ideas on the TB-W4 and P25 in series-xo?
www.tb-speaker.com/detail/1230_04/w4-1337sa.htm www.sea.vg/vifa/P25WO-00-08.pdf ....... many thanks, grant
Grant, thats a very good idea with the Seas woofer and 4" TB ti
I am sure they will be a good match ... remember that a "big" woofer will have relative more power alone due to its size
Ofcourse there are some advantage with a 3way, but a 2way has its own ground of advantage ... a good 2way is very hard to beat on its own ground
As to "Frankie", I am sure he will like a couple of "notches" ... in danish we often say that, " a little bump can turn over a big load", or something like that ... ahh, found it ... "little strokes fell great oaks" ... i am confident that mild "notches" will do the trick ... maybe only on upper midrange ... maybe on woofer too 🙂
I am sure they will be a good match ... remember that a "big" woofer will have relative more power alone due to its size
Ofcourse there are some advantage with a 3way, but a 2way has its own ground of advantage ... a good 2way is very hard to beat on its own ground
As to "Frankie", I am sure he will like a couple of "notches" ... in danish we often say that, " a little bump can turn over a big load", or something like that ... ahh, found it ... "little strokes fell great oaks" ... i am confident that mild "notches" will do the trick ... maybe only on upper midrange ... maybe on woofer too 🙂
Thank you ALL for your valuable input on Frankie...........Grant, we got a couple of different discussions going on here in this thread,and quite honestly, I find it very fun and exciting.........I hope I am not usurping your thread, because I hope we all can learn from it......You appear to be getting a firm direction on your project.................Sreten, ABSOLUTELY, I agree with your assessment on trusted recordings, which coincidently was one of the first things that entered my mind when I was hearing Frankies' symptoms begin to develope............It is very difficult to go by memory of sound from perhaps different speakers playing the same familiar songs, which is why I agree with you on the trusted recording prognosis............Tinitus,I believe you may be accurate as to the nature of the remedy............It appeals to my more conservative approach, and like you made the analagy of taming a stronger enemy than myself.........I will be posting my diagram tonite of the current crossover, so keep your eyes peeled...........Grant..........Wandering crossover may not be out of the question either, and it certainly has not entered into my thinking until you mentioned it, so that may have some credence here...............next post will have a current diagram...........Respects.............Omni
Tinitus,
Re: "I am considering a 2way instead with the 12" I have and a small fullrange"....I'm wondering which drivers you will choose? This is very interesting! Your thoughts on the TB-W4-1337SA and Vifa P25WO is encouraging, have you seen this?:
http://htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=24304
Regarding your 'power comment' The P25WO is nominally 80W with ~90dB SPL, but I might cut it at about 220Hz? where its at about 87dB which is why I thought it might suit the TB-W4-1337 which Zaph rates at 20W (TB says 50W max...optimistic?)
I'm considering this option only because I'm short on cash! Yes, I know after 70 pages of this 'thread' that its weird to consider 'changing course' to a 2-way! I'm running the risk of being ridiculed and 'laughed' out of this site!...Haha. But for me the TB-W4 does seem to have some compelling reasons to at least consider it:.. full range (with 10 kHz filter)...cheaper, that is only 2 drivers to buy, a much simpler and cheaper crossover, and MUCH easier for a beginner to tweak and get right!
Omni,
Yes, this is everyone's thread, its fun and I think we all like to try to help in the best way we can. If I offer an opinion, its probably wrong! but there's a great sense of camaraderie (spelling?) here.
I don't know that I have a 'firm direction' yet, but the Tangband fullrange option seems like its worth pursuing since Zaph gave it such a great review. I would really like to pursue the 'PMS clone idea' but frankly it would be out of my budget for quite a while.
Good test CD's would be very useful, imho. There is also a *free* download of an audio signal generator on the web which does sine-wave , pink-noise etc. I'll find the link if you want it. I think it would be good to see your latest crossover schematic and the response plot. Also, as Sreten mentioned previously the electrical
and acoustic phase plots would be good too.
This local expert on speaker building and series crossovers has invited me to audition his speakers, which should be fun! Thanks, Andy!
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~gradds55/index.html
Sreten,
I'm wondering which test CD you have and/or would recommend?
thanks, grant
Re: "I am considering a 2way instead with the 12" I have and a small fullrange"....I'm wondering which drivers you will choose? This is very interesting! Your thoughts on the TB-W4-1337SA and Vifa P25WO is encouraging, have you seen this?:
http://htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=24304
Regarding your 'power comment' The P25WO is nominally 80W with ~90dB SPL, but I might cut it at about 220Hz? where its at about 87dB which is why I thought it might suit the TB-W4-1337 which Zaph rates at 20W (TB says 50W max...optimistic?)
I'm considering this option only because I'm short on cash! Yes, I know after 70 pages of this 'thread' that its weird to consider 'changing course' to a 2-way! I'm running the risk of being ridiculed and 'laughed' out of this site!...Haha. But for me the TB-W4 does seem to have some compelling reasons to at least consider it:.. full range (with 10 kHz filter)...cheaper, that is only 2 drivers to buy, a much simpler and cheaper crossover, and MUCH easier for a beginner to tweak and get right!
Omni,
Yes, this is everyone's thread, its fun and I think we all like to try to help in the best way we can. If I offer an opinion, its probably wrong! but there's a great sense of camaraderie (spelling?) here.
I don't know that I have a 'firm direction' yet, but the Tangband fullrange option seems like its worth pursuing since Zaph gave it such a great review. I would really like to pursue the 'PMS clone idea' but frankly it would be out of my budget for quite a while.
Good test CD's would be very useful, imho. There is also a *free* download of an audio signal generator on the web which does sine-wave , pink-noise etc. I'll find the link if you want it. I think it would be good to see your latest crossover schematic and the response plot. Also, as Sreten mentioned previously the electrical
and acoustic phase plots would be good too.
This local expert on speaker building and series crossovers has invited me to audition his speakers, which should be fun! Thanks, Andy!
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~gradds55/index.html
Sreten,
I'm wondering which test CD you have and/or would recommend?
thanks, grant
Hi, regarding the TB 4" ti .. as JohnKrutke points out, its possible or even makes sense to use it with higher xo point, thus makes room fore a lot of cheaper tweeter options ... one thing is sure, that any tweeter sounds better with higher xo point ... and John did also suggest a very cheap tweeter, D26NC55, which he thinks is better than even XT25 ... FR response does look very good
grantnsw said:
http://www.interstudio.co.uk/sndchk.htm
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Try e-bay, the above is a bit pricey ......
🙂/sreten.
I have no test nor reference recordings 
though most of my CDs sound ok ... and the worst is listenable 🙂
Who says reference CDs are any better, I have heard a few which was worth nothing, to say the least
If you can listen to 50% of your CDs with pleasure, you are on the right track
When 70% sound good its even better
When 90% is pure music and joy it doesnt get any better😎
Allthough most of my recordings are jazz and classical, and a few rock blues recordings, I listen to the radio a lot and like most new popmusic, if only they didnt use "compressing" in loud passages ... its very odd and sounds funny when silent passages are louder than the loud passages
Listen with your hart and feelings, and forget your brain fore a small and relaxing moment
though most of my CDs sound ok ... and the worst is listenable 🙂 Who says reference CDs are any better, I have heard a few which was worth nothing, to say the least
If you can listen to 50% of your CDs with pleasure, you are on the right track
When 70% sound good its even better
When 90% is pure music and joy it doesnt get any better😎
Allthough most of my recordings are jazz and classical, and a few rock blues recordings, I listen to the radio a lot and like most new popmusic, if only they didnt use "compressing" in loud passages ... its very odd and sounds funny when silent passages are louder than the loud passages
Listen with your hart and feelings, and forget your brain fore a small and relaxing moment
I just found my schematic......I was so excited when I finished Frankie I must have misplaced the schematic............At any rate, I have to redraw it and put in the actual component values, especially the measured values of the inductors..........Sorry for the delay, as I am the one losing out here.....But I will have it up shortly..........Omni
grantnsw said:
now that's just funny. I'm an OK wood craftsman, and can design weird stuff... but an expert..no way !!! I don't spend enough time measuring and simming to be regarded as such. !
It will be interesting to see what you think of my stuff.
I have a few CD's you may rather like, that could be considered very well recorded, and also very listenable.
see ya soon !!
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