1. I think it was Andre Visser who suggested this driver combo - the woofer suggestged however was the RFX thanks it it's bigger Xmax (read as SPL) capability. At Madisound the RFX sells for $150.30 and the RE4X sells for 118.40 each (hence for 4 woofers the difference is about $130).
2. I too prefer to get drivers from the same manufacturer. Hence SEAS makes a lot of sense as many suppliers carry it (Madisound, WilmSlow, Europe-Audio, BMM etc.).
3. The only advantage of going to a 5-6" midwoofer (instead of a midrange) would be to permit the system to be expanded for Home Theater use as well (the other 3 or 5 channels could then be 2 way).
Still I do not want to derail this process and suggest more alternates.
Perhaps after this system is done a "Excel" version (using SEAS Excel drivers for those with better skills and infrastructure) could be attempted just like Troels did for his "Poor Man's Strad".
Last edited:
Personally i'd prefer HIFI over home theater. It occurred to me that we could offer build options enclosure as per Zaph and his revelator. Then those who have purchased the drivers can experiment with the different enclosures. Sealed, vented and maybe a TL if we can engage the gurus for a bit of fun.
Superb idea.
I think the choices might be along the following lines.
1. MTW - TL 3 way (woofer on top gives the longest TL)
2. WTM - Ported 3 way (mid on top a la JM Lab)
3. WWMT - Sealed 3.5 way
Each option would mean a different crossover design.
The box sizes for each of these might be about the same (100 liters).
What say?
Perhaps after this system is done a "Excel" version (using SEAS Excel drivers for those with better skills and infrastructure) could be attempted just like Troels did for his "Poor Man's Strad".
Yes, that would lift the sonic bar up higher for sure and is a good goal as I have experience with the small Nextel from the Excel family.
I just finished a crossover (6th revision) for my 27TFF / W15LY001 yesterday and the Nextel is an exceptional driver. It didn't shine until this last design change and the swap of a Scan Speak tweeter to the 27TFF. Goes to show you don't need to spend heaps on the tweeter. What pointed to the final direction was spending time listening on and off axis to the raw W15LY001 sans crossover to get a good feel for the characteristics and behaviour and forget about the FR graph and modelling which tends to get imbedded in the brain. It's probably frowned upon but the final design runs it for over 7 octaves.... almost like a FR.
I got quite a surprise.
Hi cjcc67, I'm using unibox (it is an excel spreadsheet based one) available here
I really like it... but if you don't have excel there are plenty of alternatives. I've tried winisd which isn't bad, but prefer unibox.
I recently downloaded AkAbak which appears to be the the most powerful modelling software I've come across (It will let you model pretty much anything you can think up) but it has a rather steep learning curve.. if you go down that track do a search here on diyAudio as there is a great thread with a tutorial on how to get up and running fast. I've had a play and what you can get out of it is very nice but I haven't had the time to really get into it. I want to model my woofers in a dual chamber reflex enclosure, which it can do, and there is a section in the tutorial on doing just that.
Tony.
I really like it... but if you don't have excel there are plenty of alternatives. I've tried winisd which isn't bad, but prefer unibox.
I recently downloaded AkAbak which appears to be the the most powerful modelling software I've come across (It will let you model pretty much anything you can think up) but it has a rather steep learning curve.. if you go down that track do a search here on diyAudio as there is a great thread with a tutorial on how to get up and running fast. I've had a play and what you can get out of it is very nice but I haven't had the time to really get into it. I want to model my woofers in a dual chamber reflex enclosure, which it can do, and there is a section in the tutorial on doing just that.
Tony.
What pointed to the final direction was spending time listening on and off axis to the raw W15LY001 sans crossover to get a good feel for the characteristics and behaviour and forget about the FR graph and modelling which tends to get imbedded in the brain. It's probably frowned upon but the final design runs it for over 7 octaves.... almost like a FR.
Yep I found the same with my MW144's rabbitz... the measurements I did didn't look crash hot (but the environment and method was suspect) so I decided to ignore them... found that they sounded best simply running full range with a cap on the tweeter (they weren't to bad active with a computer based 4th order LR either)... that was four years ago now (I posted at the time and you actually commented that you had done similar)... I will be revisiting hopefully in the not too distant future once the cabinets are finished... slow slow process, a pain not having a workshop...
Sometimes I think conventional wisdom should be thrown out the window. Trying to do what you are "supposed to do" rather than "what is required" can IMO bog you down and cause you to completely miss the goal
Tony.
Mainly the cost Andre! I will have another look at the CA26RFX I modelled a lot of drivers and didn't take notes
Tony.
I believe if you want to go sealed, you will need two bass drivers per side to compensate for baffle step, then the RE4X might do well. It should be cheaper to use a single driver like the RFX with larger magnet, longer throw and slightly higher power in a TL design which seems to give enough SPL for baffle step correction.
If you look at the graphs it seems like the differences in FR could be caused by baffle step in their tests, so I don't think that will make much of a difference especially if we XO at about 300Hz.
Yes, the Nextel drivers have got quite a reputation (see Zaph and Troels). I dont know how the change from a true midrange like the MCA15RCY to a midwoofer like the W15LY/W15CH (the CH is mentioned becuase of it's lower MMs) etc.. will affect the overall soundof the system though. The 10" woofers for one wont need to work as high as 300hz.
By using a midwoofer instead of a midrange one can in effect have a 2 way monitor mated to a woofer. This way those who want to make 3 or 5 more 2 way monitors can have matching speakers for a system that does both Stereo as well as Home Theater. However for this purpose a larger midwoofer like the W16NX might be more suitable - FYI the W16NX has a similar sonic signature to SEAS's C16N coax so HT/AV buffs can get coax centers (and/or surrounds).
Still, if there was an Excel version of the 27TFFC/27TDFC + MCA15RCY + 26RFX/26RE4X combo maybe the M15CH would be a more suitable replacement.
Enough said let get back to this project. We can work on the "Excel"/HT-AV and other variations and versions later.
The cost difference between the RE4X adn RFX is about $30 each ($130 for a set of 4) if got from Madisound. However if this is a group buy this cost difference might be less than $100 (for a set of 4).
Last edited:
Sometimes I think conventional wisdom should be thrown out the window. Trying to do what you are "supposed to do" rather than "what is required" can IMO bog you down and cause you to completely miss the goal
Tony.
When working in isolation it's easy to go off track. I'm lucky I have Andy G to belt me around the ears and put me back on course when I wander too far.
Yes, a true mid like the MCA15RCY is more in keeping with this project for sure.
I am sorry if I stepped on your toes.
BTW since you seem familair with the Excel series from SEAS; have you had the opportunity to compare the Nextel with the Magnesium cones?
At one time I was thinking of a 2 x W26FX001, W16NX001, T29MF001 combo if only for the look of the white cone and gold phase plug.
No navin, you didn't step on my toes..... didn't feel a thing.
The Nextel is the only Excel woofer I've used. I did an xo via email for a Excel 2-way (T25CF002 / W17E001) but as it was located 1000K away, I never heard it. I generally use Scan Speak, one SB Acoustics and Tymphany products as I get them at trade prices. Unfortunately I don't get that deal with SEAS drivers but doesn't stop me buying them if I feel they are warranted or are a better option for the application.
I've used heaps of SEAS tweeters, and very fond of them, but never a SEAS woofer hence the trial with the Nextel. I'm certainly not disappointed and IMO lives up to the hype from Troels and Zaph. SEAS after sales service has been excellent as I had a cosmetic flaw on the surround with 1 driver I bought from Madisound and SEAS USA arranged a replacement from Norway which was shipped to Australia at no charge.... can't ask for more than that.
The Nextel is the only Excel woofer I've used. I did an xo via email for a Excel 2-way (T25CF002 / W17E001) but as it was located 1000K away, I never heard it. I generally use Scan Speak, one SB Acoustics and Tymphany products as I get them at trade prices. Unfortunately I don't get that deal with SEAS drivers but doesn't stop me buying them if I feel they are warranted or are a better option for the application.
I've used heaps of SEAS tweeters, and very fond of them, but never a SEAS woofer hence the trial with the Nextel. I'm certainly not disappointed and IMO lives up to the hype from Troels and Zaph. SEAS after sales service has been excellent as I had a cosmetic flaw on the surround with 1 driver I bought from Madisound and SEAS USA arranged a replacement from Norway which was shipped to Australia at no charge.... can't ask for more than that.
Last edited:
That is also a good suggestion, I think it would be best to XO at about 80Hz to a 6.5" woofer/mid and 2kHz to a good tweeter. The only problem is building a 80Hz passive XO, for 300Hz it is quite large already. For that I think it would be best to bi-amp with an active XO at 80Hz and passive XO at 2kHz.
The W16EX or W18EX will also make very good midrange drivers if you don't XO too high, there is just something in the magnesium cones that talk to me.
That is also a good suggestion, I think it would be best to XO at about 80Hz to a 6.5" woofer/mid and 2kHz to a good tweeter. The only problem is building a 80Hz passive XO, for 300Hz it is quite large already. For that I think it would be best to bi-amp with an active XO at 80Hz and passive XO at 2kHz.
The W16EX or W18EX will also make very good midrange drivers if you don't XO too high, there is just something in the magnesium cones that talk to me.
Andre if we are to XO below 200Hz it makes a lot of sense to biamp. In my (specific) case I will be triamping my next speaker (whatever it is). The amps are already WIP (work in progress).
I like the look of the Mg cones. I have not heard them though except in Joe Joesph's products.
Last edited:
Hi all,
I didn't read the hole threat. But I had a idea about a classic 3 way design and how I would make it.
It had to be a medium size 3 way with 12 inch woofer and dome mid and high I call it the HIFI legend. A 80 liter box for real Mann.
I also choose the drivers and made a drawing it iscapable of 94 dB 1 wmtr. -6db 35Hz, -3dB 50Hz Br tuning 30Hz.
Regards Helmuth
I didn't read the hole threat. But I had a idea about a classic 3 way design and how I would make it.
It had to be a medium size 3 way with 12 inch woofer and dome mid and high I call it the HIFI legend. A 80 liter box for real Mann.
I also choose the drivers and made a drawing it iscapable of 94 dB 1 wmtr. -6db 35Hz, -3dB 50Hz Br tuning 30Hz.
Regards Helmuth