Nice Sounding Tweeter
Hi Godzilla
I hope you havn't munched any innocent humans since we last spoke !
When I was a kid it used to scare the pants off me when the T-rexs' in "1000 Years BC" gave chase to Raquel etc.
'Mommy, mommy, the dinosaurs are going to eat those people !'
Don't worry, they'll be OK, she said.
Wiped out by a meteor, obviously didn't have Sean Connery around to save them !
Oh yeah, what are we supposed to be doing here ?
The mind wanders sometimes yer know.
Ah, thats it, I remember now, building speakers, right ?
I guess I've let the cat out of the bag now about my thoughts on a compression driver for 'the versatile' loudspeaker.
To my ears the 2414H sounds very nice indeed.
It sounds very good in EON powered PA monitors.
It sounds very, very good in PRX 535/230 powered studio monitors.
& IMO
It sounds very, very, very good in AC26 non-powered installation speakers.
I'm glad you posted about your JBL monitors, as the #1 reason I'm interested in scrutinizing the JBL data sheet is to do with power handling.
All of the mentioned JBL products are capable of chucking out a bit of whelie, which is good.
The driver does look a bit small though (yes, I know, size doesn't count for everything, but sometimes we can't help thinking that way).
I guess the fact that most of the compression drivers commonly seen have ferrite magnets, means much greater weight & bulk.
Where'as the 2414H's neodymium magnet, partly accounts for it's size and low mass.
Seeing that 2 Kg's worth of iron in the average CD also acts as a fairly reasonable heat sink, power handling from this factor alone would no doubt be higher.
The JBL powered monitors obviously regulate system power to avoid blown drivers, but the AC26 installation speakers do not.
I'm a bit upset to hear you managed to blow some, did you blow both at the same time or on separate occasions ?
Did you happen to notice if they showed any signs of heat damage ?
My first reaction to hearing the AC26's was WOW !
My first reaction to seeing the driver was, better glue a big heat sink on that little baby, before anything nasty has a chance to happen.
How much did you pay for your spares in USD ?
In the UK they are £100 inc tax & delivery.
Not cheap, and not expensive either IMO.
I certainly wouldn't mind shelling out those bucks for a great sounding unit like that.
More ideas for 'the versatile' loudspeaker HF section soon....
Cheers
Simon
Hi Godzilla
I hope you havn't munched any innocent humans since we last spoke !
When I was a kid it used to scare the pants off me when the T-rexs' in "1000 Years BC" gave chase to Raquel etc.
'Mommy, mommy, the dinosaurs are going to eat those people !'
Don't worry, they'll be OK, she said.
Wiped out by a meteor, obviously didn't have Sean Connery around to save them !
Oh yeah, what are we supposed to be doing here ?
The mind wanders sometimes yer know.
Ah, thats it, I remember now, building speakers, right ?
I guess I've let the cat out of the bag now about my thoughts on a compression driver for 'the versatile' loudspeaker.
To my ears the 2414H sounds very nice indeed.
It sounds very good in EON powered PA monitors.
It sounds very, very good in PRX 535/230 powered studio monitors.
& IMO
It sounds very, very, very good in AC26 non-powered installation speakers.
I'm glad you posted about your JBL monitors, as the #1 reason I'm interested in scrutinizing the JBL data sheet is to do with power handling.
All of the mentioned JBL products are capable of chucking out a bit of whelie, which is good.
The driver does look a bit small though (yes, I know, size doesn't count for everything, but sometimes we can't help thinking that way).
I guess the fact that most of the compression drivers commonly seen have ferrite magnets, means much greater weight & bulk.
Where'as the 2414H's neodymium magnet, partly accounts for it's size and low mass.
Seeing that 2 Kg's worth of iron in the average CD also acts as a fairly reasonable heat sink, power handling from this factor alone would no doubt be higher.
The JBL powered monitors obviously regulate system power to avoid blown drivers, but the AC26 installation speakers do not.
I'm a bit upset to hear you managed to blow some, did you blow both at the same time or on separate occasions ?
Did you happen to notice if they showed any signs of heat damage ?
My first reaction to hearing the AC26's was WOW !
My first reaction to seeing the driver was, better glue a big heat sink on that little baby, before anything nasty has a chance to happen.
How much did you pay for your spares in USD ?
In the UK they are £100 inc tax & delivery.
Not cheap, and not expensive either IMO.
I certainly wouldn't mind shelling out those bucks for a great sounding unit like that.
More ideas for 'the versatile' loudspeaker HF section soon....
Cheers
Simon
Hi freddi
Thanks for putting me on to the 'Karlson coupler' concept.
I don't know what to say really.
With music, electronics & speakers I have always been keen to experiment, and to question 'the norm'.
I had rejected the idea of a horn for 'the versatile' loudspeaker, due, I suppose to the limited bandwidth & size type issues, mainly.
Open & closed baffle were also out, due to lack of extension & or size issues again, and of course 'versatility' and portability.
So I ended up at the 'normal' ported portable reflex speaker for it's 'versatile' attributes.
Although a seasoned woodworking vet. myself, I also wanted to come up with an easy to make design, that would encourage non-woodworking friends of mine, who can make 'boxes' but might be scared off by curvy & diagonal bits (if you see what I mean).
The Karlson coupler seems to have bits of all the previously mentioned designs in it, but is in fact different to all of them.
Size was an issue also, and having made a few calculations I could quickly see that the main criteria could be achieved with a cab. about 4.5 Cu ft, and that by doubling it to 9 Cu ft the performance was bearly increased.
Also a personal issue is that my studio/listening room is not small, but the access to it is. The speakers thinest dimension would have to be 17" period, or it ain't getting in thru the door !
It seems from your pictures though, that your speakers are probably this thin, and look around 5 cu ft to me.
So I continue to be intriged.
I couldn't find much on Eliptoflex however, It seems to me from the picture that the cab. is ported around the rim of the speaker, into the eliptical/ exponential type cutout which is obviously doing something accoustic, but I couldn't figure out what ?
You've used the Sigma Pro freddi and say it's OK. Do you have any comments on 'beaming' with this driver, or indeed any other critisism of it (however small) ?
The Karlson HF unit looks like the quick hit route to the concept, and appears to be addable to any existing setup. Very interesting.
I bet you've got some cool diagrams and PDF's to look at, could you E-mail me 'the Karlson crash course docs' so I could read up some of the best info a bit more ?
Cheers
Simon
The ELC have no bearing at all on what I'm talking about, which you would also know if you had measured the spectrum of various bass notes straight out of the instrument especially at the low end of the spectrum.
Still waiting for an answer on why B&C are over hyped. What performance metrics do you base that conclusion on? And why is that Eminence better?
And have you also never heard of the other half dozen or more Euro made drivers with excellent reputations?
Why the 'Eminence - Sigma Pro 18A-2' ?
First of all.
NOWHERE on this thread has it been said that the Eminence driver is 'better' (or worse) than any other driver. Period.
The reasons for considering the Eminence driver (as already discussed in the thread), are as follows:-
1. I happened to have a dusty old Eminence brochure under my desk, and looked in it.
2. Resonance below 30 Hz was wanted (Eminence quote 28 Hz).
3. As much high frequency extension as possible was wanted (Eminence quote 2.4K Hz).
4. An alloy chassis was wanted.
5. A decent, chunky magnet was wanted.
6. The driver is widely and readily available.
7. The price seems reasonable, considering it appears to be a good quality product.
And finaly, and most importantly in my view, the thread asked members if they have used it, or could recomend any similar suitable product.
The result of which was diyAudio member freddi (who has made a number of 18" speakers) has used it and felt it was a good driver.
An option from Dayton Audio has been considered, but has less high frequency extension, and although availability in the US seems good, in the UK (where I am) and in Europe, it seems less available.
The 'Lil' Buddy tm.' driver has been discussed, but is intended as a guitar speaker and has a 'character' peak, and is therefore not suitable.
Also the stalwart UK company Volt's drivers have been considered by myself & Charles Darwin, as we both already run Volt drivers. The high frequency extension needed was not there. But if you like listening to sine waves below 500 Hz using a 1 kilo-Watt amplifier they would be ideal.
Not mentioned in the thread, but considered by myself are possible options from Fane, Celestion and ATC. But these enquirys have failed to produce a likely driver in my opinion.
Another fringe benefit of the Eminence Sigma Pro has also been discovered.
Which is that anyone wishing to try speaker computer aided design for the first time, can simply and easily download the demo of the Eminence CAD program.
The program is pre-loaded with Sigma Pro data, and allows 'correct' cabinet ratios, port lengths and sizes, material thicknesses, etc etc etc all to be manipulated in sync, and figures calculated and plotted on the graph system, very, very, easily.
Which is great fun, and I believe very accessable, even for novice CAD users.
I hope that clarifies the question of interest in this driver.
Again, If anyones used something they like and meets the general criteria, please post and let it be known, that's the great thing about diyAudio.
Cheers
Simon
First of all.
NOWHERE on this thread has it been said that the Eminence driver is 'better' (or worse) than any other driver. Period.
The reasons for considering the Eminence driver (as already discussed in the thread), are as follows:-
1. I happened to have a dusty old Eminence brochure under my desk, and looked in it.
2. Resonance below 30 Hz was wanted (Eminence quote 28 Hz).
3. As much high frequency extension as possible was wanted (Eminence quote 2.4K Hz).
4. An alloy chassis was wanted.
5. A decent, chunky magnet was wanted.
6. The driver is widely and readily available.
7. The price seems reasonable, considering it appears to be a good quality product.
And finaly, and most importantly in my view, the thread asked members if they have used it, or could recomend any similar suitable product.
The result of which was diyAudio member freddi (who has made a number of 18" speakers) has used it and felt it was a good driver.
An option from Dayton Audio has been considered, but has less high frequency extension, and although availability in the US seems good, in the UK (where I am) and in Europe, it seems less available.
The 'Lil' Buddy tm.' driver has been discussed, but is intended as a guitar speaker and has a 'character' peak, and is therefore not suitable.
Also the stalwart UK company Volt's drivers have been considered by myself & Charles Darwin, as we both already run Volt drivers. The high frequency extension needed was not there. But if you like listening to sine waves below 500 Hz using a 1 kilo-Watt amplifier they would be ideal.
Not mentioned in the thread, but considered by myself are possible options from Fane, Celestion and ATC. But these enquirys have failed to produce a likely driver in my opinion.
Another fringe benefit of the Eminence Sigma Pro has also been discovered.
Which is that anyone wishing to try speaker computer aided design for the first time, can simply and easily download the demo of the Eminence CAD program.
The program is pre-loaded with Sigma Pro data, and allows 'correct' cabinet ratios, port lengths and sizes, material thicknesses, etc etc etc all to be manipulated in sync, and figures calculated and plotted on the graph system, very, very, easily.
Which is great fun, and I believe very accessable, even for novice CAD users.
I hope that clarifies the question of interest in this driver.
Again, If anyones used something they like and meets the general criteria, please post and let it be known, that's the great thing about diyAudio.
Cheers
Simon
Hey S.E.C. If you have a way to directly record your bass to a computer, I'd be glad to look at each string or note for you in spectrum analysis. I'd learn something, and maybe other folks would, too. Would be fun to see the fundamental and harmonics of each string.
Does the amp head have a direct out? Most bass heads do.
Does the amp head have a direct out? Most bass heads do.
30.868 Hz, 41.203 Hz, 55 Hz, 73.416 Hz, 97.999 Hz Test Tones !
Hi Pano
I'll mail you a C90 cassette straight away.
Just kidding !
You could cause me major embarisment you realise, if my tunings out !
No seriously though, yes I do have quite a few ways to record the bass.
I'm just trying to think which would be most suitable.
My guitar amp is a gorgeous 'blood & custard' 1958 Selmer Truevoice, but unfortunatly is gathering dust in a south London studio at the moment (nice dirty signal path & no polypropylene caps in that).
Here at the moment I have a 'Tech 21 NYC Sans Amp Tri.A.C.' FET preamp, which I like very much.
Also a few other Hi Z inputs to choose from.
I'm guessing one single pick up from the bass, through super clean FET preamp, as direct to digital as possible would be best.
Treat the bass as a mechanical analogue test tone generator, 5 clean twangs, with as much, and longest sustain possible on each.
The other interesting question is, should I mute the 4 unused strings each time, as especialy when you hit the low B zero, and with the other strings as well, the rest are moving in sympathy whether plucked/picked or not. Quite a confusing and messy waveform no doubt.
I'll probably do it to the Yamaha PAW, or Tascam SS recorder.
What's your favorite sample rate ?
Cheers
Simon
Hi Pano
I'll mail you a C90 cassette straight away.
Just kidding !
You could cause me major embarisment you realise, if my tunings out !
No seriously though, yes I do have quite a few ways to record the bass.
I'm just trying to think which would be most suitable.
My guitar amp is a gorgeous 'blood & custard' 1958 Selmer Truevoice, but unfortunatly is gathering dust in a south London studio at the moment (nice dirty signal path & no polypropylene caps in that).
Here at the moment I have a 'Tech 21 NYC Sans Amp Tri.A.C.' FET preamp, which I like very much.
Also a few other Hi Z inputs to choose from.
I'm guessing one single pick up from the bass, through super clean FET preamp, as direct to digital as possible would be best.
Treat the bass as a mechanical analogue test tone generator, 5 clean twangs, with as much, and longest sustain possible on each.
The other interesting question is, should I mute the 4 unused strings each time, as especialy when you hit the low B zero, and with the other strings as well, the rest are moving in sympathy whether plucked/picked or not. Quite a confusing and messy waveform no doubt.
I'll probably do it to the Yamaha PAW, or Tascam SS recorder.
What's your favorite sample rate ?
Cheers
Simon
You said this in post #14: "it seems like VERY good value for money compared to over priced, over hyped drivers such as B+C (and I'm sure I'll get some flak on that one !!!)."
But still no technical explanation as to why they are overpriced and overhyped.
1: You have the internet and google...
2: Plenty of alternatives (see below)
3: If you believe 2k4 for an 18 even on axis for almost any driver, I have a bridge I'd be interested in selling you.
4: Almost all pro drivers are.
5: Ditto
6: See below
7: Value is relative, but if it doesn't perform to what you need, then it has no value.
They are less available, but there are plenty of alternatives.
Some guitar speakers can work quite well as dedicated midranges.
I love hyperbole.
What about Beyma, BMS, Faital Pro, PHL, Precision Dynamics, RCF, 18Sound, JBL or Acoustic Elegance? Plus others I have surely forgotten to post.
Hey Space Egg.
Using a direct input to a sound card can work, for example my M-Audio USB cards will take a guitar input. Or run it thru the amp head and then use the direct out to the sound card. Set the tone controls flat, if you do.
48Khz or 44.1Khz, (mono) either will be fine. Wave, Flac, APE or high bitrate MP3 will be fine. No C-90s excepted at the moment.
Good question about muting the other strings. I don't know. Maybe do a sample of both? In normal play they are not damped, right? I played stand up bass years ago, but don't remember much about it.
Yes, I will certainly publish the results here.
Using a direct input to a sound card can work, for example my M-Audio USB cards will take a guitar input. Or run it thru the amp head and then use the direct out to the sound card. Set the tone controls flat, if you do.
48Khz or 44.1Khz, (mono) either will be fine. Wave, Flac, APE or high bitrate MP3 will be fine. No C-90s excepted at the moment.
Good question about muting the other strings. I don't know. Maybe do a sample of both? In normal play they are not damped, right? I played stand up bass years ago, but don't remember much about it.
Yes, I will certainly publish the results here.
Here is one someone else did (no accreditation as I don't remember who it was). I had about 2 dozen basses at the time and mine were not dissimilar though they did vary between brand, model and construction. I can't find where I kept the files if I did at all. LHS is E, B will be worse.
Attachments
Do or D.I.
Hi CD
Hope your not keeping your neighbours awake with your Volts at this late hour !
I think your right, no external preamps, just D.I. to digital.
My Yamaha PAW has a hyper clean Hi Z D.I. channel.
I think I will experiment with that first.
Cheers
Simon
Hi CD
Hope your not keeping your neighbours awake with your Volts at this late hour !
I think your right, no external preamps, just D.I. to digital.
My Yamaha PAW has a hyper clean Hi Z D.I. channel.
I think I will experiment with that first.
Cheers
Simon
Internet Research Expert Needed - start immediately - Salary 2.4K (Hz).
Hi Brett
Sorry it's taken a while to get back to you.
I had to book a long emergency session with my psychiatrist.
And have only just got over it.
I'm pleased we have an internet research expert on the thread, as I'm looking for a datasheet which I can't find.
JBL - 2414H JBL part # 342423-002X
Yes... there are a lot of companys who make drive units.
We could even consider using 'vintage' from the 1930s' Fletcher & Munson era.
My friendly local pro-audio dealer finds these hard to get though, and a bit expensive when they come up.
Would you like to suggest or recommend any drivers for 'the versatile' loudspeaker ?
I like hyperbole as well.
It's one of my favorite polar patterns.
It has the great advantage of cutting out the un-wanted mush from the sides.
A shotgun is even better for this purpose.
You can really cut out all the sideways mush with one of those.
Cheers
Simon
Hi Brett
Sorry it's taken a while to get back to you.
I had to book a long emergency session with my psychiatrist.
And have only just got over it.
I'm pleased we have an internet research expert on the thread, as I'm looking for a datasheet which I can't find.
JBL - 2414H JBL part # 342423-002X
Yes... there are a lot of companys who make drive units.
We could even consider using 'vintage' from the 1930s' Fletcher & Munson era.
My friendly local pro-audio dealer finds these hard to get though, and a bit expensive when they come up.
Would you like to suggest or recommend any drivers for 'the versatile' loudspeaker ?
I like hyperbole as well.
It's one of my favorite polar patterns.
It has the great advantage of cutting out the un-wanted mush from the sides.
A shotgun is even better for this purpose.
You can really cut out all the sideways mush with one of those.
Cheers
Simon
Precision Devices
Hi CD
Yes I checked out 'Precision Devices' when I first started looking at drivers.
Didn't come to a conclusion though.
Some of that brands parts are very easy to get though, through the CPC cat. as you probably know (free delivery in the UK folks).
Compression drivers, yes, lots of them about.
I like the sound of the JBL 2414H as used in their AC26 installation speaker very, very, very much.
Would love to see it's spec. sheet as well, but simply can't find it.
Have tried a lot, might have another go tommorow.
It certainly seems to tick the right boxes for me though.
Godzilla (as discussed a few posts back) has blown a couple of them though, which isn't so good.
Mmmm ?
Cheers
Simon
Hi CD
Yes I checked out 'Precision Devices' when I first started looking at drivers.
Didn't come to a conclusion though.
Some of that brands parts are very easy to get though, through the CPC cat. as you probably know (free delivery in the UK folks).
Compression drivers, yes, lots of them about.
I like the sound of the JBL 2414H as used in their AC26 installation speaker very, very, very much.
Would love to see it's spec. sheet as well, but simply can't find it.
Have tried a lot, might have another go tommorow.
It certainly seems to tick the right boxes for me though.
Godzilla (as discussed a few posts back) has blown a couple of them though, which isn't so good.
Mmmm ?
Cheers
Simon
Hi CD
Yeah, I think your right.
He must have got the name muddled up with something else.
Maybe some kind of typo error.
I googled 'Precision Dynamics', and they make wristbands for prison inmates & law enforcement.
I did check out the 'Precision Devices' drivers again though.
There were 2 that looked interesting.
Cone mass on one was 50% higher than the Sigma Pro, but the plot and most other specs. looked OK.
The other ones resonance was a bit too high for my liking.
Also checked out Fane again, but didn't fancy the aluminium voice coil on the one that looked suitable.
Mmmm ?
Cheers
Simon
Seems JBL only supplies the 2414 as part of some pa speakers but given that JBL always combines this with 6.5" mids I doubt it will go low enough to successfully match it with an 18".
JBL offers the 2447 which might be suitable but they cost between US$ 550 and $800 each.
How about 2x15 + horn? You still may need a compression driver larger than 1" tho'.
JBL offers the 2447 which might be suitable but they cost between US$ 550 and $800 each.
How about 2x15 + horn? You still may need a compression driver larger than 1" tho'.
One Nineth Of A Kilo Watt !
Hi CD
JBL do - 1x 2414H & 1x 15" pairings, with peak power of 900 Watts, X'ed @ 2.2K Hz.
Simon
Hi CD
JBL do - 1x 2414H & 1x 15" pairings, with peak power of 900 Watts, X'ed @ 2.2K Hz.
Simon
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