@niffy
Many thanks for the meaningful intel.
When I first upgraded my AC-DC-9V OL Wall-wart transformer - to the iFi iPower AC-DC-9V - I was so shocked at the difference [IMPROVEMENT] that I always figured the iFi ultra-low noise of (alleged) 1uV was what made the difference.
@pkonstantinidis Perhaps this is a low-cost upgrade you might like to try, as it is still only DC-9V. It's just PLUG & PLAY! The iFi iPower models have been around for more than a decade and are for sale everywhere - new and used.
This is why I have focused on low-noise, with this latest change to DC-24V supply. I can't comment on any other PSU aspect, because this is my only experience.
I've just got to ask: Did you mod the OL SCU (Advanced or Ultra) at all to handle the DC-24V?
If not, how is your OL SCU - built for 9V - handling all the additional heat around the first stage of voltage stabilisation, caused by the 24V supply?
I also wonder if OL would honour your OL ULTRA SCU warranty, given the 24V feed into a SCU built for just 9V. Just sayin'.
Secondly, I'm curious: How to you figure-out which MAXOM DC motor to buy?
Many thanks for the meaningful intel.
When I first upgraded my AC-DC-9V OL Wall-wart transformer - to the iFi iPower AC-DC-9V - I was so shocked at the difference [IMPROVEMENT] that I always figured the iFi ultra-low noise of (alleged) 1uV was what made the difference.
@pkonstantinidis Perhaps this is a low-cost upgrade you might like to try, as it is still only DC-9V. It's just PLUG & PLAY! The iFi iPower models have been around for more than a decade and are for sale everywhere - new and used.
This is why I have focused on low-noise, with this latest change to DC-24V supply. I can't comment on any other PSU aspect, because this is my only experience.
I've just got to ask: Did you mod the OL SCU (Advanced or Ultra) at all to handle the DC-24V?
If not, how is your OL SCU - built for 9V - handling all the additional heat around the first stage of voltage stabilisation, caused by the 24V supply?
I also wonder if OL would honour your OL ULTRA SCU warranty, given the 24V feed into a SCU built for just 9V. Just sayin'.
Secondly, I'm curious: How to you figure-out which MAXOM DC motor to buy?
Hi Sondeknz,
I have not modified either of the OL controllers.
The OL controllers are not designed to run from 9v. Where did you get this information? The original wall wart, as supplied by OL, is a 12v transformer. It supplies 12v AC. The first step up the upgrade ladder is the round transformer which is rated at 15v AC.
These photos were uploaded from OL website.
Their top model upgrade is the large balanced transformer. This is boxed so I can't see the rating but it is also 15v AC. I think it is 300-400VA.
The small 12v transformer will give, after rectification, a DC output of about 19v.
The round 15v transformer will give about 23v as will the large balanced transformer.
The voltage across the power supply cap in the controller will be about the same using OLs power supply as it is using your 24v supply. I ran my Advanced controller from 24v supplies for 5-6 years with absolutely no problem.
I selected my Maxon motor so that the controller would be outputting around 5v, seemed like a good healthy voltage. OLs decks run the belt around the outside of the platter. Using the same premotec motor as they did on most of their TT range when I purchased the controller would require around 4.5v for 33 1/3rpm. I figured that if OL aim for 4.5v for their own decks this would be a safe option.
With the Sondek, which is the main deck upgraded with OL, the output voltage would be around 2.4v.
All DC motors have a specification called the speed constant. This is the motor speed per volt (RPM/v).
To calculate the required speed constant ;
Divide the sub-platter diameter by the pulley diameter.
Multiple this by 33 1/3. This will give the motor speed.
Divide this by the required controller output voltage.
This will give the required speed constant.
The Premotec 18105, as used by OL, has a terminal resistance of 12.5Ω. I would be cautious of using a motor with a much lower resistance than this, 6Ω?. Higher resistance shouldn't be a problem. Bit like not using too low an impedance speaker on an amplifier. My Maxon is around 100Ω so is safe.
Hope this helps.
Niffy
I have not modified either of the OL controllers.
The OL controllers are not designed to run from 9v. Where did you get this information? The original wall wart, as supplied by OL, is a 12v transformer. It supplies 12v AC. The first step up the upgrade ladder is the round transformer which is rated at 15v AC.
These photos were uploaded from OL website.
Their top model upgrade is the large balanced transformer. This is boxed so I can't see the rating but it is also 15v AC. I think it is 300-400VA.
The small 12v transformer will give, after rectification, a DC output of about 19v.
The round 15v transformer will give about 23v as will the large balanced transformer.
The voltage across the power supply cap in the controller will be about the same using OLs power supply as it is using your 24v supply. I ran my Advanced controller from 24v supplies for 5-6 years with absolutely no problem.
I selected my Maxon motor so that the controller would be outputting around 5v, seemed like a good healthy voltage. OLs decks run the belt around the outside of the platter. Using the same premotec motor as they did on most of their TT range when I purchased the controller would require around 4.5v for 33 1/3rpm. I figured that if OL aim for 4.5v for their own decks this would be a safe option.
With the Sondek, which is the main deck upgraded with OL, the output voltage would be around 2.4v.
All DC motors have a specification called the speed constant. This is the motor speed per volt (RPM/v).
To calculate the required speed constant ;
Divide the sub-platter diameter by the pulley diameter.
Multiple this by 33 1/3. This will give the motor speed.
Divide this by the required controller output voltage.
This will give the required speed constant.
The Premotec 18105, as used by OL, has a terminal resistance of 12.5Ω. I would be cautious of using a motor with a much lower resistance than this, 6Ω?. Higher resistance shouldn't be a problem. Bit like not using too low an impedance speaker on an amplifier. My Maxon is around 100Ω so is safe.
Hope this helps.
Niffy
@niffy @pkonstantinidis
Niffy is quite right! Panos, your bypass capacitor idea was a good one. Obviously, I wasn't paying close attention. My bad.
Upon closer inspection, the OL SCU 1uF Polycap IS in fact a bypass cap. In order to remove noise from the circuit, it is being used to PASS high frequencies directly to ground - a shunt!
On this basis, one could experiment with additional bypass caps - perhaps very small values to shunt the highest of frequencies to ground.
With this in mind, I have tonight installed a trio of strategically located 470pF 160V polystyrene capacitors, just before we sleep for the night.
The platter will now spin all night ready for a close listen test tomorrow.
This will give the new caps and the 24V LPS a chance to settle down and burn-in.
No drama if I have to haul all of the polystyrene caps out again. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.
Let's see!
🤔
I'll have to check my new Ultra to see if any components are cooking. I haven't taken the lid off yet, which is very unlike me.
If the resistance remains fixed and the voltage increases the current will also increase.
V=IR
Double the voltage through the same resistance will also double the current.
Good question.
I recall that I requested the correct input voltage from ORIGIN LIVE many years ago, when my first OL PSU died - and I started mucking around with after-market PSUs.
I rechecked with OL again, last year. I have found a 2022 email from "James" at ORIGIN LIVE Customer Services recommending the use of 9V PSU with our OL ADVANCED SCU.
That said, what you have mentioned above about higher voltage supply values for the OL SCUs makes perfect sense - and the photos from the OL website are pretty compelling!
The DC-9V iFi iPower wall-wart definitely produces what it says on the label - and very little more. [Approx. DC-9.15V max.] But it now seems quite funny that I have very carefully run our OL ADVANCED SCU on just 9V - for the best part of 20-years - when it has obviously been able to handle a lot more power - and would have sounded a lot better to boot!
In any event, do check the first stage of voltage stabilisation components on your own OL ULTRA SCU, just in case. I can't assume that the ULTRA has the same parts count or configuration as my MK12 ADVANCED, but if there is an R4 in 1/4W resistor value, check it for heat damage.
My OL ADVANCED SCU R4 position measured just over DC-11V while operating at 33RPM yesterday. The maths suggests that this equates to a constant .35W across the 2W resistor that I now have installed, which is probably fine. I would be less happy if it was still a 1/4W resistor.
Perhaps I am worrying needlessly, but I always tend to err on the side of safety, where sustained heat is concerned.
Finally, the result I have been working towards!
This morning - having spent the night spinning and settling - our LP12 hot-rod sounded its very best.
Not quite as pipe and slippers as it sounded being fed with DC-9V, but the harshness and brightness that had emerged from the initial DC-24V testing is gone - and platter-speed is solid.
The rich organic beauty, space and relaxation is back in the music - accompanied by new levels of detail and insight. Loving it!
Was it the additional 12-hours of motoring, giving the new LHY AUDIO 160W 24V AC-DC LPS time to settle?
Was it the addition of three strategically located 470pF 160V polystyrene capacitors?
The truth is that I just don't know. Perhaps both?
At some stage I will allow the LHY AUDIO LPS to switch-off and return to stone cold. If thereafter, the sonic hardness and brightness returns to any degree, that will provide a few answers.
What I can say is that I am thrilled with the outcome and have no real hankering for further improvements.
That said, our original ORIGIN LIVE DC-100 motor is nearly 20-years old, so at some stage it will fail. At that point in time, I will revisit the PREMOTEC versus MAXON discussion.
This morning - having spent the night spinning and settling - our LP12 hot-rod sounded its very best.
Not quite as pipe and slippers as it sounded being fed with DC-9V, but the harshness and brightness that had emerged from the initial DC-24V testing is gone - and platter-speed is solid.
The rich organic beauty, space and relaxation is back in the music - accompanied by new levels of detail and insight. Loving it!
Was it the additional 12-hours of motoring, giving the new LHY AUDIO 160W 24V AC-DC LPS time to settle?
Was it the addition of three strategically located 470pF 160V polystyrene capacitors?
The truth is that I just don't know. Perhaps both?
At some stage I will allow the LHY AUDIO LPS to switch-off and return to stone cold. If thereafter, the sonic hardness and brightness returns to any degree, that will provide a few answers.
What I can say is that I am thrilled with the outcome and have no real hankering for further improvements.
That said, our original ORIGIN LIVE DC-100 motor is nearly 20-years old, so at some stage it will fail. At that point in time, I will revisit the PREMOTEC versus MAXON discussion.
As an interesting side observation:
Playback has improved so much since last night; today's session quickly revealed a tonearm anti-skate issue that remained previously obscured.
Now remedied.
There's just nowhere for the gremlins to hide, now! 🤣
Playback has improved so much since last night; today's session quickly revealed a tonearm anti-skate issue that remained previously obscured.
Now remedied.
There's just nowhere for the gremlins to hide, now! 🤣
Hi Sondeknz,
Excellent news that the sound has settled down with a bit of a run in.
Like you I now feel that I don't need to tinker with my drive any further. If you do find that you do get the itch to tinker some more I would definitely recommend going for a Maxon motor. Either an Re-Max or DCX22 would be my first choices. They use the same M2 on a 17mm diameter mounting and 3mm shaft as your current DC100 motor. You could either swap your existing pulley or purchase a new one from OL.
But first I would recommend just enjoying the music.
Niffy
Excellent news that the sound has settled down with a bit of a run in.
Like you I now feel that I don't need to tinker with my drive any further. If you do find that you do get the itch to tinker some more I would definitely recommend going for a Maxon motor. Either an Re-Max or DCX22 would be my first choices. They use the same M2 on a 17mm diameter mounting and 3mm shaft as your current DC100 motor. You could either swap your existing pulley or purchase a new one from OL.
But first I would recommend just enjoying the music.
Niffy
Many thanks Niffy.
I'm not sure how I would go messing with DC motor pulleys.
I feel sure that it would be pretty easy to ruin a new motor, if too much force is used.
I guess that is the advantage with buying a new, off-the-shelf OL (PREMOTEC) motor. A new OL DC-100 / DC-200 motor arrives with the right LP12 pully - POM plastic - already mounted on the spindle, at the right height.
My current PREMOTEC (Made in Holland) DC-100 motor has lasted 20-years and is still as quiet as a mouse. Not a bad innings... And it's way cheaper than a MAXON. 🤣
Hopefully, my old DC-100 will keep performing for a while, before I am confronted with thoughts of its replacement.
******
One thing I completely forgot to mention about the "new" sound of our re-powered LP12 hot-rod.
The sound is now so much more dramatic and dynamic - percussive peaks and transients at normal listening volumes are just so much louder and impactful! - that it can be quite tricky setting a nice average volume level.
It's a nice problem to have. 😊
I'm not sure how I would go messing with DC motor pulleys.
I feel sure that it would be pretty easy to ruin a new motor, if too much force is used.
I guess that is the advantage with buying a new, off-the-shelf OL (PREMOTEC) motor. A new OL DC-100 / DC-200 motor arrives with the right LP12 pully - POM plastic - already mounted on the spindle, at the right height.
My current PREMOTEC (Made in Holland) DC-100 motor has lasted 20-years and is still as quiet as a mouse. Not a bad innings... And it's way cheaper than a MAXON. 🤣
Hopefully, my old DC-100 will keep performing for a while, before I am confronted with thoughts of its replacement.
******
One thing I completely forgot to mention about the "new" sound of our re-powered LP12 hot-rod.
The sound is now so much more dramatic and dynamic - percussive peaks and transients at normal listening volumes are just so much louder and impactful! - that it can be quite tricky setting a nice average volume level.
It's a nice problem to have. 😊
Hi Sondeknz,
which would you say has yielded the biggest improvement? The two bigger Nichicon caps or the linear power supply? There is also the cost-benefit aspect (as always).
By the way, today I am expecting the Maxon RE-max 226764 motor. But it will take me some time to have a new motor pod created, that will allow me to perform the various experiments I have in mind. One thing at a time, so that I can appreciate the respective improvement (or deterioration).
Next task is to order the Nichicon caps. Unless, there is other brands that I should look at, too.
Cheers,
P.
which would you say has yielded the biggest improvement? The two bigger Nichicon caps or the linear power supply? There is also the cost-benefit aspect (as always).
By the way, today I am expecting the Maxon RE-max 226764 motor. But it will take me some time to have a new motor pod created, that will allow me to perform the various experiments I have in mind. One thing at a time, so that I can appreciate the respective improvement (or deterioration).
Next task is to order the Nichicon caps. Unless, there is other brands that I should look at, too.
Cheers,
P.
Hi Panos,
It is difficult to answer your question, because I never actually tried the new 24V Linear Power Supply with (just) the old 1,000uF EL capacitor installed on the OL SCU.
I think there would still have been a problem if I did, because I strongly suspect that the old 1,000uF EL capacitor was failing - or failed. An increase in voltage supply still would not have provided the circuit smoothing required for good sound - and the speed drift still may have been impacted.
To answer your question: if I could only do one - I would do the caps as the magic sound of our LP12 came back in spades, following that quick fix. Besides, replacing the cap(s) is a pretty cheap fix, compared to investing in an entirely new 24V PSU.
If your own 1,000uF EL capacitor has failed, then it is my guess that replacing it with one (or two) 4,700uF capacitors will serve to immediately remedy your current speed-drift problems and provide a nice smoothing improvement to deliver excellent sound. But I doubt that it will stabilise the speed to the extent that up-rating to a DC-24V supply would.
You have my NICHICON EL cap recommendation. PANASONIC and RUBYCON also make nice caps that are popular in PSU applications, but frankly any brand that delivers an on-spec, fully operational EL cap will do the job - better than a failed cap.
I hope this helps.
It's very exciting about the arrival of your new MAXON DC motor!! Can you confirm the voltage of your current AC-DC supply for the SCU?
It is difficult to answer your question, because I never actually tried the new 24V Linear Power Supply with (just) the old 1,000uF EL capacitor installed on the OL SCU.
I think there would still have been a problem if I did, because I strongly suspect that the old 1,000uF EL capacitor was failing - or failed. An increase in voltage supply still would not have provided the circuit smoothing required for good sound - and the speed drift still may have been impacted.
To answer your question: if I could only do one - I would do the caps as the magic sound of our LP12 came back in spades, following that quick fix. Besides, replacing the cap(s) is a pretty cheap fix, compared to investing in an entirely new 24V PSU.
If your own 1,000uF EL capacitor has failed, then it is my guess that replacing it with one (or two) 4,700uF capacitors will serve to immediately remedy your current speed-drift problems and provide a nice smoothing improvement to deliver excellent sound. But I doubt that it will stabilise the speed to the extent that up-rating to a DC-24V supply would.
You have my NICHICON EL cap recommendation. PANASONIC and RUBYCON also make nice caps that are popular in PSU applications, but frankly any brand that delivers an on-spec, fully operational EL cap will do the job - better than a failed cap.
I hope this helps.
It's very exciting about the arrival of your new MAXON DC motor!! Can you confirm the voltage of your current AC-DC supply for the SCU?
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Sondeknz,
with my current Premotec motor the voltage is 2.52V, if that's what you are asking. As soon as I receive the Maxon motor, I will inform you about the voltage.
With respect to the Nichicon caps, they offer two different models, which they characterize as 'audio grade', namely the KW and the FW. And they cost the same. I've asked Nichicon about the difference of those two models and I will revert with their feedback (in case they respond).
with my current Premotec motor the voltage is 2.52V, if that's what you are asking. As soon as I receive the Maxon motor, I will inform you about the voltage.
With respect to the Nichicon caps, they offer two different models, which they characterize as 'audio grade', namely the KW and the FW. And they cost the same. I've asked Nichicon about the difference of those two models and I will revert with their feedback (in case they respond).
Hey Panos,
Either caps will work well. Maybe opt for which model offers the lower ESR. Perhaps refer to the data sheet for each, to better understand.
Regarding your present supply voltage, I am asking that you confirm how much DC supply is outputted by the AC-DC transformer that you plug into the wall power outlet. It’s probably a black plastic little wall-wart and it will have a silver sticker somewhere stating the DC output. Probably 9V or 12V, I would guess.
If it is 12V or 15V output already, then a 24V upgrade would probably be less urgent for you, than it was for me, with my old 9V supply.
Just my opinion.
Either caps will work well. Maybe opt for which model offers the lower ESR. Perhaps refer to the data sheet for each, to better understand.
Regarding your present supply voltage, I am asking that you confirm how much DC supply is outputted by the AC-DC transformer that you plug into the wall power outlet. It’s probably a black plastic little wall-wart and it will have a silver sticker somewhere stating the DC output. Probably 9V or 12V, I would guess.
If it is 12V or 15V output already, then a 24V upgrade would probably be less urgent for you, than it was for me, with my old 9V supply.
Just my opinion.
Hi Sondeknz,
sorry for the misunderstanding. My power pack provides variable output ranging from 3V up to 12V. With less voltage the motor runs more quietly, so I tend to use 7.5V. But to be honest, I have not experimented long enough with the input voltage.
https://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B09FT9DHSQ/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
If I remember correctly, the Origin Live people advised to try a 15V power supply (I have to check my emails to confirm).
sorry for the misunderstanding. My power pack provides variable output ranging from 3V up to 12V. With less voltage the motor runs more quietly, so I tend to use 7.5V. But to be honest, I have not experimented long enough with the input voltage.
https://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B09FT9DHSQ/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
If I remember correctly, the Origin Live people advised to try a 15V power supply (I have to check my emails to confirm).
Panos,
No drama. We are all on the learning-circuit.
Your description above again suggests to me that your 1,000uF capacitor is failing or failed.
While running on a very low DC-7.5V, there is less demand on the 1,000uF capacitor for smoothing - so the DC motor runs smoother. As soon as you increase the voltage, the motor runs rough, due to the failing/failed smoothing capacitor.
If you replace your capacitor - with one or two caps - the additional smoothing will allow you to switch supply to DC-12V and run your DC motor smoothly AND your platter-speed will stabilise.
As a further bonus, the stiffer power supply - increased voltage - should help provide improved sound quality including more detail, increased dynamics, etc.
It's all just waiting for you - for the cost of one or two capacitors. 😉
No drama. We are all on the learning-circuit.
Your description above again suggests to me that your 1,000uF capacitor is failing or failed.
While running on a very low DC-7.5V, there is less demand on the 1,000uF capacitor for smoothing - so the DC motor runs smoother. As soon as you increase the voltage, the motor runs rough, due to the failing/failed smoothing capacitor.
If you replace your capacitor - with one or two caps - the additional smoothing will allow you to switch supply to DC-12V and run your DC motor smoothly AND your platter-speed will stabilise.
As a further bonus, the stiffer power supply - increased voltage - should help provide improved sound quality including more detail, increased dynamics, etc.
It's all just waiting for you - for the cost of one or two capacitors. 😉
Thanks for the interesting feedback, Sondeknz.
I will definitely go ahead with the caps upgrade. And what is the takeaway about an additional bypass cap? Yes or no?
And while I was reading your above post, the door bell rang, and this is what was delivered. A big box (but no so heavy in reality). So, I open the box, and what do I see? Just one small motor. Anyways, not bad at all. Just what I have been waiting for. -))
I will definitely go ahead with the caps upgrade. And what is the takeaway about an additional bypass cap? Yes or no?
And while I was reading your above post, the door bell rang, and this is what was delivered. A big box (but no so heavy in reality). So, I open the box, and what do I see? Just one small motor. Anyways, not bad at all. Just what I have been waiting for. -))
Attachments
Panos,
Your MAXON has arrived... YIPPEE DOODLE! The fun begins!
Regarding the bypass capacitor, as Niffy has said, there is already a bypass capacitor in the SCU circuit, in the form of the 1uF polycap located right next to the 1,000uF EL cap.
As you know, I also added some much lower value bypass caps, in the form of three strategically located 470pF 160V polystyrene capacitors. But frankly, I would come back to that later - if you feel you need to - if I were you.
Start with the EL cap replacement - whether you are driving your new MAXON motor or your old OL motor. For smooth running and long life, both DC motors will need the big smoothing cap to be fully functional - and both will run better on 12V, than 7.5V.
Personally, I would NOT run the new MAXON motor until the big cap is replaced - in an effort to ensure that no unnecessary wear or damage occurs to that very costly motor.
Again, just my opinion.
Your MAXON has arrived... YIPPEE DOODLE! The fun begins!
Regarding the bypass capacitor, as Niffy has said, there is already a bypass capacitor in the SCU circuit, in the form of the 1uF polycap located right next to the 1,000uF EL cap.
As you know, I also added some much lower value bypass caps, in the form of three strategically located 470pF 160V polystyrene capacitors. But frankly, I would come back to that later - if you feel you need to - if I were you.
Start with the EL cap replacement - whether you are driving your new MAXON motor or your old OL motor. For smooth running and long life, both DC motors will need the big smoothing cap to be fully functional - and both will run better on 12V, than 7.5V.
Personally, I would NOT run the new MAXON motor until the big cap is replaced - in an effort to ensure that no unnecessary wear or damage occurs to that very costly motor.
Again, just my opinion.
Yes, it has arrived and connected it for a just 20 seconds to the controller. Yes, the motor turns, which is a good start. It is quiet. At some point you can hear some noise come and go, but this is probably due to the bearings that have not run at all. As a first impression, it seems to have much less vibration that the Premotec motor.
Of course, I will take your advice and connect the new motor when the new caps have been installed.
Of course, I will take your advice and connect the new motor when the new caps have been installed.