Hi, Correction to my post on width of tape. If you had not already realised it should read 5mm wide, not 55mm, sorry my bad.
Cheers
Cheers
Over the last week or so, I have tested three different PSUs to power our OL DC SCU.
No major improvement in speed stability was achieved, until yesterday, when I finally tried a new LINEAR POWER SUPPLY [UNI-T UTP3313TFL-II 30V 3A 90W] delivering exact amounts of DC-24V - more than double the output voltage of the previous two PSUs.
(For safety reasons, I did not raise the voltage above DC-24V...)
In a nutshell, at DC-24V the speed stabilized nicely, and sound quality was primo.
Surprisingly, the speed drift problem still lingered, running the OL SCU at DC-12V, DC-15V and even DC-18V. I cannot explain why.
So, comments from Niffy in support of running the OL SCU at DC-24V input have now been verified before my own eyes and ears. Always pleasing.
Interestingly, some of the OL SCU PCB components started to get pretty warm at DC-24V - particularly the first stage voltage stabilizer transistor - and I was very glad that I had previously upped some of the resistor power-handling values (from 1/4W to 2W and 3W) and added some additional heatsinking to both transistors.
Summary: DC-24V works! But I must confess, that I suspect that the substantial increase in input voltage - from the DC-9V that OL recommends to DC-24V - is providing remedy to something else that is not quite right in the OL circuit.
From my perspective, a bit more discovery and testing of other ideas is needed, BEFORE deciding to permanently run the OL SCU on DC-24V.
Unfortunately, the UNI-T UTP3313TFL-II LPS had massive fans that ran full-time, so I have packaged it up and returned it. A nice machine in other respects.
If DC-24V supply is where I finally end up, I will definitely repopulate the OL SCU PCB with higher power handling components - and dramatically increase the uF of the ageing EL cap.
I welcome any thoughts on all this.
No major improvement in speed stability was achieved, until yesterday, when I finally tried a new LINEAR POWER SUPPLY [UNI-T UTP3313TFL-II 30V 3A 90W] delivering exact amounts of DC-24V - more than double the output voltage of the previous two PSUs.
(For safety reasons, I did not raise the voltage above DC-24V...)
In a nutshell, at DC-24V the speed stabilized nicely, and sound quality was primo.
Surprisingly, the speed drift problem still lingered, running the OL SCU at DC-12V, DC-15V and even DC-18V. I cannot explain why.
So, comments from Niffy in support of running the OL SCU at DC-24V input have now been verified before my own eyes and ears. Always pleasing.
Interestingly, some of the OL SCU PCB components started to get pretty warm at DC-24V - particularly the first stage voltage stabilizer transistor - and I was very glad that I had previously upped some of the resistor power-handling values (from 1/4W to 2W and 3W) and added some additional heatsinking to both transistors.
Summary: DC-24V works! But I must confess, that I suspect that the substantial increase in input voltage - from the DC-9V that OL recommends to DC-24V - is providing remedy to something else that is not quite right in the OL circuit.
From my perspective, a bit more discovery and testing of other ideas is needed, BEFORE deciding to permanently run the OL SCU on DC-24V.
Unfortunately, the UNI-T UTP3313TFL-II LPS had massive fans that ran full-time, so I have packaged it up and returned it. A nice machine in other respects.
If DC-24V supply is where I finally end up, I will definitely repopulate the OL SCU PCB with higher power handling components - and dramatically increase the uF of the ageing EL cap.
I welcome any thoughts on all this.
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The Origin live upgrade power supplies are just a 15volt toroidal transformer in a box. The smaller round transformer, £160, is rated at 30VA. I don't know the rating of the larger £400 transformer though I suspect that it is in the region of 300-400VA. Both transformers are manufactured by Noratel in the UK.
A 230v/15v transformer should result a DC output of about 23v after rectification. A 24v DC supply will supply the controller with about the same voltage as OLs own upgrade supplies.
I have been running my Advanced controller from several different 24v DC supplies for several years without any issues. I don't think that upgrading components for reliability is necessary but if it improves sound quality then I'm all up for that.
The size and quality of the supply both make a big difference. My current supply, that I have been using for a couple of months now, is basically the same as you might build for a power amplifier. It is about the same size as my previous supply but uses higher quality components. Sound quality notably improved. It has a 120VA toroid and over 50,000μf of capacitance. It has a bit of filtering on the mains input as my mains is not the best.
Niffy
A 230v/15v transformer should result a DC output of about 23v after rectification. A 24v DC supply will supply the controller with about the same voltage as OLs own upgrade supplies.
I have been running my Advanced controller from several different 24v DC supplies for several years without any issues. I don't think that upgrading components for reliability is necessary but if it improves sound quality then I'm all up for that.
The size and quality of the supply both make a big difference. My current supply, that I have been using for a couple of months now, is basically the same as you might build for a power amplifier. It is about the same size as my previous supply but uses higher quality components. Sound quality notably improved. It has a 120VA toroid and over 50,000μf of capacitance. It has a bit of filtering on the mains input as my mains is not the best.
Niffy
The question that I'm asking myself is "How does upgrading the quality of the capacitors in the external power supply that feeds the controller that drives a motor that couples via a belt to a massive platter effect the movement of the stylus in the groove?". It clearly does but how?
I've ascertained that a high voltage supply sounds better. As does higher current capability. Higher quality components also. A motor with lower noise and torque ripple and higher torque also sounds better. Knowing THAT these things make a difference is very useful. Knowing HOW they make that difference would be even more useful.
The output of the cartridge is entirely down to the relative motion of stylus and cartridge body. How does it all effect this?
It's going to be more than just speed stability. The explosiveness of a transient isn't going to be effected all that much by a 0.1% change in speed. Running the noisy Maxon motor with the f*&#@d bearings still had better tonality than the quiet Premotec so noise isn't everything. How does upgrading the motor or controller cause a deeper better layered soundstage?
Niffy
I've ascertained that a high voltage supply sounds better. As does higher current capability. Higher quality components also. A motor with lower noise and torque ripple and higher torque also sounds better. Knowing THAT these things make a difference is very useful. Knowing HOW they make that difference would be even more useful.
The output of the cartridge is entirely down to the relative motion of stylus and cartridge body. How does it all effect this?
It's going to be more than just speed stability. The explosiveness of a transient isn't going to be effected all that much by a 0.1% change in speed. Running the noisy Maxon motor with the f*&#@d bearings still had better tonality than the quiet Premotec so noise isn't everything. How does upgrading the motor or controller cause a deeper better layered soundstage?
Niffy
I don't believe that EMI plays a significant role with low voltage DC motors. I have tried waving a running DC motor around near the cartridge and have detected no effect what so ever.
AC motors running at mains voltages, as many "budget" decks use, can and do cause mains interference.
I believe the differences I've heard have all been mechanical in nature. The magnitude of the improvements I've achieved with my recent series of motor and controller upgrades is much greater than I can explain.
Very happy with the results.
Not so happy that I can't explain why.
Niffy
AC motors running at mains voltages, as many "budget" decks use, can and do cause mains interference.
I believe the differences I've heard have all been mechanical in nature. The magnitude of the improvements I've achieved with my recent series of motor and controller upgrades is much greater than I can explain.
Very happy with the results.
Not so happy that I can't explain why.
Niffy
I not sure why you guys are still going the large costly transformer route. I am just using a 18VDC SPMS - 5amp. into my 12volt motor motor supply. I have tested test against a 14VDC SLA -5A battery in place of the SMPS. There was absolutely no discernable difference between the two.
And more importantly no supply noise.
Cheers
And more importantly no supply noise.
Cheers
If the OL controller is so sensitive to power supply variation surely it makes more sense to find out why, and if necessary ditch it
and find a better controller design.
My personal choice is an AC (Papst outer rotor) synchronous motor, driven by Pyramid's SG4 controller.
I do appreciate that DC motors can provide a lower level of vibration, but without a feedback mechanism they are not as easy to control.
I have experimented with a Maxon motor, don't know the model number, but it's a 24V motor, 40mm dia, 44mm long, with a 3mm shaft and carbon brushes. All of my experimenting have been done with info from https://www.precisionmicrodrives.com/ab-026 and my best results came from using the AN6651.
and find a better controller design.
My personal choice is an AC (Papst outer rotor) synchronous motor, driven by Pyramid's SG4 controller.
I do appreciate that DC motors can provide a lower level of vibration, but without a feedback mechanism they are not as easy to control.
I have experimented with a Maxon motor, don't know the model number, but it's a 24V motor, 40mm dia, 44mm long, with a 3mm shaft and carbon brushes. All of my experimenting have been done with info from https://www.precisionmicrodrives.com/ab-026 and my best results came from using the AN6651.
Hi Ralph,
what were your impressions of the Maxon motor and the negative resistance controller? Pros and cons of that combination?
I am about to test something similar with a Maxon drive and a controller based on the same principle. I will report my findings. Additionally I will also test the belt vs rim-drive approach.
Thanks
Panos
what were your impressions of the Maxon motor and the negative resistance controller? Pros and cons of that combination?
I am about to test something similar with a Maxon drive and a controller based on the same principle. I will report my findings. Additionally I will also test the belt vs rim-drive approach.
Thanks
Panos
It was a while ago and my recollections are a little vague, but the end result was quite satisfactory. I think the only reason I didn't persevere was that I really liked Pyramid's SG4 with it's absolute speed consistancy.
For anyone who is still interested in improving the ORIGIN LIVE ADVANCED DC SCU, I've finally made some progress.
Recently, I uprated all resistors to 2W Metal Film, at current specified impedance values.
Frankly, I could not hear any improvement - and the inevitable speed-drift continued - but I have no regrets in uprating, as this hopefully provides something of a safety margin, as I explore other further opportunities to improve this SCU.
Today, I removed the single NICHICON 1,000uF/63V EL cap and replaced it with two NICHICON 4700uF/63V EL caps, wired in parallel.
Following this change, I needed to again recalibrate for 33RPM - a process that continued to require adjustment for the first 30-mins or so of play - all the while listening and measuring speed.
There was a nice sonic improvement immediately obvious after the new caps were installed. A nice surprise.
What I wasn't prepared for was the rather dramatic improvement that continued over the first few hours of playing. I guess the new EL caps were (are) continuing to "form" to slowly become their best. Not sure how long that takes.
A few hours later, it's a bit of a shock! I am now listening to LPs my parents owned - well-known albums that I have listened to my entire life - and I'm hearing them anew! I kid you not!
I am keeping a close eye on speed-drift, which also seems to have improved - but I feel it is too early to say for sure. I will need to listen and measure some more, particularly during the peak power usage periods around our way, which previously always had a big (negative) impact on speed stability.
I am still running our OL ADVANCED DC SCU on our iFi iPower DC-9V wall wart - with its active noise cancellation circuit, but in an attempt to achieve rock-solid speed stability, am still preparing to move up to DC-24V.
These interim sonic steps forward are a real unexpected bonus and will hopefully hold the OL SCU in good stead, for when the new 24V PSU arrives.
I had better get my act together and actually choose a 24V PSU! 🤣
Recently, I uprated all resistors to 2W Metal Film, at current specified impedance values.
Frankly, I could not hear any improvement - and the inevitable speed-drift continued - but I have no regrets in uprating, as this hopefully provides something of a safety margin, as I explore other further opportunities to improve this SCU.
Today, I removed the single NICHICON 1,000uF/63V EL cap and replaced it with two NICHICON 4700uF/63V EL caps, wired in parallel.
Following this change, I needed to again recalibrate for 33RPM - a process that continued to require adjustment for the first 30-mins or so of play - all the while listening and measuring speed.
There was a nice sonic improvement immediately obvious after the new caps were installed. A nice surprise.
What I wasn't prepared for was the rather dramatic improvement that continued over the first few hours of playing. I guess the new EL caps were (are) continuing to "form" to slowly become their best. Not sure how long that takes.
A few hours later, it's a bit of a shock! I am now listening to LPs my parents owned - well-known albums that I have listened to my entire life - and I'm hearing them anew! I kid you not!
I am keeping a close eye on speed-drift, which also seems to have improved - but I feel it is too early to say for sure. I will need to listen and measure some more, particularly during the peak power usage periods around our way, which previously always had a big (negative) impact on speed stability.
I am still running our OL ADVANCED DC SCU on our iFi iPower DC-9V wall wart - with its active noise cancellation circuit, but in an attempt to achieve rock-solid speed stability, am still preparing to move up to DC-24V.
These interim sonic steps forward are a real unexpected bonus and will hopefully hold the OL SCU in good stead, for when the new 24V PSU arrives.
I had better get my act together and actually choose a 24V PSU! 🤣
Hi Sondeknz,
A couple of tweaks that I am contemplating would be to upgrade the single 1000μf as you have done. I have a couple of DNM 4700μf 50v caps that could fit the bill. Alternatively I have a board with about 20 470μf Panasonic fr caps. Both are left over from my phonostage experiments. The big bank of smaller caps were better in the phonostage but for a motor controller who knows. The other tweak would be to remove/by-pass the rectifiers built into the OL controller. As it's being fed DC this rectification is completely unnecessary.
As my Ultra controller is brand new I'm reluctant to do either of these yet. Warranty goes up in smoke if I do.
Niffy
A couple of tweaks that I am contemplating would be to upgrade the single 1000μf as you have done. I have a couple of DNM 4700μf 50v caps that could fit the bill. Alternatively I have a board with about 20 470μf Panasonic fr caps. Both are left over from my phonostage experiments. The big bank of smaller caps were better in the phonostage but for a motor controller who knows. The other tweak would be to remove/by-pass the rectifiers built into the OL controller. As it's being fed DC this rectification is completely unnecessary.
As my Ultra controller is brand new I'm reluctant to do either of these yet. Warranty goes up in smoke if I do.
Niffy
@niffy
The recent OL SCU capacitor change worked for me, but I completely understand your reluctance to perform the same upgrade, given potential warranty voiding issues at these early stages of your OL ownership.
The good news for you, is that your OL SCU 1,000uF EL capacitor is probably still functioning perfectly well - as it is virtually brand new.
Remembering that my OL SCU was upgraded in 2018 - and sounded great for a few years - I suspect that the nearly 5-year-old cap in my Mk12 PCB, was well past its prime. Therefore, I reaped the immediate benefits of a cap change. At some point I will invest in a capacitor tester and measure that (now removed) capacitor.
Like you, I can only guess whether two big caps would sound different to 20 smaller caps. My gut tells me that it probably won't make much difference. That said, some pretty impressive gear manufacturers - DENAFRIPS springs to mind - apply more and more small caps to the power supplies of its costlier models - so perhaps there is something to be gained. Who knows?
The OL SCU is an interesting piece, because whilst it is an extension of the power supply, (as you also point out) it is NOT strictly a power supply. It is a controller. So, different tweaking rules may apply. With this in mind, I would be reluctant to remove or bypass the rectification as I believe it could be performing additional noise reduction duties and perhaps even providing important control (and PCB component protection) around feedback coming from the motor itself.
I'm no EE, so very happy to be corrected on both of these points.
The fact is, that this (somewhat) ugly little OL SCU PCB has a lot more going on with it, than a cursory glance reveals. A legendary quote comes to mind...
“Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler.” -Albert Einstein.
The recent OL SCU capacitor change worked for me, but I completely understand your reluctance to perform the same upgrade, given potential warranty voiding issues at these early stages of your OL ownership.
The good news for you, is that your OL SCU 1,000uF EL capacitor is probably still functioning perfectly well - as it is virtually brand new.
Remembering that my OL SCU was upgraded in 2018 - and sounded great for a few years - I suspect that the nearly 5-year-old cap in my Mk12 PCB, was well past its prime. Therefore, I reaped the immediate benefits of a cap change. At some point I will invest in a capacitor tester and measure that (now removed) capacitor.
Like you, I can only guess whether two big caps would sound different to 20 smaller caps. My gut tells me that it probably won't make much difference. That said, some pretty impressive gear manufacturers - DENAFRIPS springs to mind - apply more and more small caps to the power supplies of its costlier models - so perhaps there is something to be gained. Who knows?
The OL SCU is an interesting piece, because whilst it is an extension of the power supply, (as you also point out) it is NOT strictly a power supply. It is a controller. So, different tweaking rules may apply. With this in mind, I would be reluctant to remove or bypass the rectification as I believe it could be performing additional noise reduction duties and perhaps even providing important control (and PCB component protection) around feedback coming from the motor itself.
I'm no EE, so very happy to be corrected on both of these points.
The fact is, that this (somewhat) ugly little OL SCU PCB has a lot more going on with it, than a cursory glance reveals. A legendary quote comes to mind...
“Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler.” -Albert Einstein.
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The rectification in the OL controllers would sit between the capacitors in my outbound supply and the 1000μf cap. Apart from slightly lowering voltage I can't see they are going to do a lot of good.
Both my phonostage and preamp had rectification built in as they were designed to run from an AC outbound transformer or a much higher quality DC supply (TEAD). Of course I built my own even higher quality DC supplies for both. The phonostage sounded much better with the rectification diodes removed and the large filter caps replaced with smaller caps. Doing the same upgrade to the preamp is on my list of things to do very soon.
Of course a phonostage is a very different beast to a motor controller. I can always remove the rectification or just bypass it to see if it makes any difference. I might wait until the warranty has expired first.
Niffy
Both my phonostage and preamp had rectification built in as they were designed to run from an AC outbound transformer or a much higher quality DC supply (TEAD). Of course I built my own even higher quality DC supplies for both. The phonostage sounded much better with the rectification diodes removed and the large filter caps replaced with smaller caps. Doing the same upgrade to the preamp is on my list of things to do very soon.
Of course a phonostage is a very different beast to a motor controller. I can always remove the rectification or just bypass it to see if it makes any difference. I might wait until the warranty has expired first.
Niffy
@niffy
I'd like to ask: have you ever been able to successfully measure the noise levels on your home-bake power supply?
I am at the point of making a purchase of a Linear Power Supply (LPS) for 24V / 2A output - to drive the OL SCU.
As an aside, I have always run our OL SCU with a 9V / 1.5A iFi iPower SMPS wall wart, claimed to deliver an impressively low 1uV of noise. But I don't trust the long-term durability of iFi products enough to spend big on their 24V wall-wart. I decent LPS is half that cost!
The best low-noise LPS I've been able to find offers EITHER 16uV noise in a 80W LPS; OR 29uV in a 120W or 160W LPS. Any of these options can be configured for 24W output and limited to (say) 2A.
In powering the OL SCU, frankly, I am tossing-up whether increased wattage is more important OR the difference in low-level noise.
I recall your comments earlier in this thread, that to your ears, the increased wattage of the LPS delivered greater sound quality improvements, hence my question about measuring the noise of your LPS - and whether that has been a driving factor for you.
I fully accept that ACCURATELY measuring noise in an LPS - establishing proper ground and eliminating all other sources of noise - is well beyond the ability of most blokes with a multi-meter - including me. 🤣
I'd like to ask: have you ever been able to successfully measure the noise levels on your home-bake power supply?
I am at the point of making a purchase of a Linear Power Supply (LPS) for 24V / 2A output - to drive the OL SCU.
As an aside, I have always run our OL SCU with a 9V / 1.5A iFi iPower SMPS wall wart, claimed to deliver an impressively low 1uV of noise. But I don't trust the long-term durability of iFi products enough to spend big on their 24V wall-wart. I decent LPS is half that cost!
The best low-noise LPS I've been able to find offers EITHER 16uV noise in a 80W LPS; OR 29uV in a 120W or 160W LPS. Any of these options can be configured for 24W output and limited to (say) 2A.
In powering the OL SCU, frankly, I am tossing-up whether increased wattage is more important OR the difference in low-level noise.
I recall your comments earlier in this thread, that to your ears, the increased wattage of the LPS delivered greater sound quality improvements, hence my question about measuring the noise of your LPS - and whether that has been a driving factor for you.
I fully accept that ACCURATELY measuring noise in an LPS - establishing proper ground and eliminating all other sources of noise - is well beyond the ability of most blokes with a multi-meter - including me. 🤣
I rather think that noise caused by the motor brushes will vastly exceed any in the incoming PSU.
I have not measured the noise of any of my outboard power supplies. All of my observations are purely subjective based on what comes out of my speakers. Not all of my experiments have had positive results even when I fully expected them to.
I had expected that improving supply voltage stability and reducing noise by adding a voltage regulator would improve matters. As the current drawn from the supply was less than 100mA I figured that a 1.5A capable regulator would give me plenty of headroom. The transformer I used had 18v secondaries so would give around 30v before the 24v regulator, a nice healthy drop off 6v. This set up killed the dynamics and resulted in a shoebox size soundstage. Swapping out the transformer for a 15v model from the same range (nuvotem talema 25VA encapsulated) and removing the regulator gave the same 24v output. The resulting sound quality was vastly superior. It would appear that instantaneous current delivery is more important than noise in this application. This is not dissimilar to the effect of sticking regulators in the power supply of a power amp.
My next supply used the 120VA 15v transformer I'm currently using (nuvotem talema open toroidal) and a couple of 22000μf caps. The caps were nasty cheap ebay no-names. The sound quality from this supply was notably better than the previous small supply.
My current supply uses 24 Vishay 2200μf caps that are much higher quality than the previous big caps. I used these as they were left over from another project. I don't know if the improvement they wrought was due to using a big bank of smaller caps or their higher quality. Maybe a bit of both.
My experience would suggest that a higher current supply is more important than a lower noise one. OLs own upgrade supplies are just a bigger transformer with just the single 1000μf cap for smoothing. Probably not going to give the lowest supply ripple.
Niffy
@niffy
Bravo! Exactly what I needed to read, at this juncture. Appreciated.
It seems in that this particular arena, there is no replacement for displacement.
On that basis, I'm gonna spring for 160W LPS.
I will report...
😎👍
Bravo! Exactly what I needed to read, at this juncture. Appreciated.
It seems in that this particular arena, there is no replacement for displacement.
On that basis, I'm gonna spring for 160W LPS.
I will report...
😎👍