@norman bates Yes I was thinking that. Full range middle then 7.5" to top woofer and then bottom woofer- unless he suggests just stacking woofers. I was even considering MTM for CLR of my theater and the remaining four speakers the standard config.
Dagger shape with 5 sides does not have resonant standing wave so acts similar to open back driver sound - little to no box coloration.
tmm vs mtm is kind of a loaded subject.
I had a tmm that i liked (morel solstice). It had 6.3" frames crossed 1.7khz.
(from PE staff).............
Topology: 4th -order Linkwitz-Riley Acoustical
Woofer Filter: Shaped Third-Order Electrical
Tweeter Filter: Padded Second-Order Electrical
MTM vertical can seem like the sound is coming at you from a pipe. Perhaps this is due to the comb filtering happening on the ceiling bounce.
Horizontal mtm can be wonky comb filtering if not on the main couch @ 10' away................
I had 3 vertical rca pro cs550 mtm with ribbon tweets (they were supposed to be center channels) running as LCR for movies.
Definitely low volume setup but great clarity.
I had a tmm that i liked (morel solstice). It had 6.3" frames crossed 1.7khz.
(from PE staff).............
Topology: 4th -order Linkwitz-Riley Acoustical
Woofer Filter: Shaped Third-Order Electrical
Tweeter Filter: Padded Second-Order Electrical
MTM vertical can seem like the sound is coming at you from a pipe. Perhaps this is due to the comb filtering happening on the ceiling bounce.
Horizontal mtm can be wonky comb filtering if not on the main couch @ 10' away................
I had 3 vertical rca pro cs550 mtm with ribbon tweets (they were supposed to be center channels) running as LCR for movies.
Definitely low volume setup but great clarity.
G'day, great thread!
Just wondering if any direct comparison in the form of measurements or at least listening tests have been made between bass reflex and transmission line cabinets?
I'm split between the two.
Just wondering if any direct comparison in the form of measurements or at least listening tests have been made between bass reflex and transmission line cabinets?
I'm split between the two.
Hi everyone, I’m new here. I’ve been lurking on this thread for a year or so wanting to pull the trigger on a modified version of this using the Dayton audio ps95-8. I’ve used this driver a couple times and I love it. And I have some on hand already that need using. I saw another user who build a set using this driver but they used dsp. My question is, does anyone here have a crossover schematic for this combo? I’m guessing the origional crossocer wouldn’t work without some tweaking as the 10f seems to have a 4.5 db advantage over the ps95. But if there is some attenuation of the 10f, maybe I could lessen or do without the attenuation circuit? I’m still quite new and have yet to design a crossover myself. I’ve tried and it just doesn’t make sense to me. And I don’t know if this os even the right place to ask this, so if it isn’t, I apologize. I appreciate all the help and hope to become a more active member in the forum.
Hi X,
In post #4112 you showed the finalised XO for the SB23NRXS40-8 & PS95-8 speakers in the sealed cab.
Does this same crossover work for the TL version using these speakers or are there minor adjustments required?
Apologies for the stupid question, but I am just starting to re-read this thread and my knowledge of crossover design is sorely lacking.
Regards Richard
In post #4112 you showed the finalised XO for the SB23NRXS40-8 & PS95-8 speakers in the sealed cab.
Does this same crossover work for the TL version using these speakers or are there minor adjustments required?
Apologies for the stupid question, but I am just starting to re-read this thread and my knowledge of crossover design is sorely lacking.
Regards Richard
Hi Richard,
In general, a XO for a sealed version works for the TL version of the same speaker. I have not tested the SB23 in the RS225 TL yet, but it will probably work.
In general, a XO for a sealed version works for the TL version of the same speaker. I have not tested the SB23 in the RS225 TL yet, but it will probably work.
X,
Thanks for your response. Good to know - I can start to assemble components! Regards Richard
Thanks for your response. Good to know - I can start to assemble components! Regards Richard
Hi Jim,
I’m really interested in building a fast speaker with these drivers as I have them both on hand. I love the ps95 so much. I’m curious what kind of dsp you used for this? Did you happen to make a passive crossover for this combination at any point?
Hi. Absolutely yes they were fully passive. I just followed the XO for the design proper in this thread but ended up lowering the padding to the PS95 to give some more 'highs'. I found my PS95s rolled off quite a bit after 14khz, although I can't hear much above there!
Ok thanks! Question though. Where it says 3R3, and 6R8, I don’t really know what that means…are those values for the resistor? 3 ohm and 8 ohm respective?
Edit: oh never mind that’s not what it means at all. Ok so just adding an extra 4.7 ohm on r1 “stacked” if you will? And that will reduce the padding on ps95-8? Sorry, crossover stuff still is not something I can wrap my head around yet.
Attachments
Hi. It is a convention to use 'R' as the decimal point , so here we have 3.3ohm and 6.8ohm.
You will see it for capacitance aswell using 'C' for the decimal point. So 3.3uf will be written as 3u3.
Hope this helps
You will see it for capacitance aswell using 'C' for the decimal point. So 3.3uf will be written as 3u3.
Hope this helps
Ohhhh ok. Ha! That’s a great little piece of shorthand for me to know! Ok. I will try that. Are you happy with them still? I can’t hear above 13,000 hz anyways so that’s fine with me. And my wife, well she can’t hear above 11,000! Or was it 10,000? And we are only in our 30’s. Too many concerts maybe? Or it it normal at this age?
Have you heard them before using the 10f instead of ps95? If so how do they compare? Have you ever taken FR measurements of your speakers? I’d be curious to see how it compares to the original design
Have you heard them before using the 10f instead of ps95? If so how do they compare? Have you ever taken FR measurements of your speakers? I’d be curious to see how it compares to the original design
Ohhhh ok. Ha! That’s a great little piece of shorthand for me to know! Ok. I will try that. Are you happy with them still? I can’t hear above 13,000 hz anyways so that’s fine with me. And my wife, well she can’t hear above 11,000! Or was it 10,000? And we are only in our 30’s. Too many concerts maybe? Or it it normal at this age?
Have you heard them before using the 10f instead of ps95? If so how do they compare? Have you ever taken FR measurements of your speakers? I’d be curious to see how it compares to the original design
For the crossover for the 10f/rs225, is R5 47 ohm or 470 ohm?Some sound clips of this speaker recorded with my phone and powered by my SuSyLu 100w Class A amp:
Test of SuSyLu 100W Class A Amp - YouTube
Example of speaker in dark “espresso brown” stain and satin lacquer with Duratex coated baffle.
Example of beautiful build by as8912:
Another Example of a floor standing FAST TL by Plott:
This is a great shot of the internals as provided by Plott:
Example of a floor standing TL version of this speaker by Moutik:
Example of a smaller sealed version with PS95-8 full range drivers by Jimk04, here.
I wanted a speaker design worthy of the exceptionally high performing ScanSpeak 10F/8424 Discovery 3.5in full range driver. I decided that a short sealed Dagger TL coupled with a sealed bass unit would give me the best overall transient response and clarity. I decided to mate the 10F/8424 with the superb Dayton RS225-8 aluminum cone woofer for bass duties. The design ended up as a 24 liter volume for the woofer and a 1.1 liter 3-sided pyramid Dagger for the 10F/8424. The important external dimensions are: 10.0in wide baffle, 7.5in CTC distance from woofer to fullrange, and 24 liter internal volume (sealed). You can make the height and depth to suit your individual case, but it will need to be deep enough to house the Dagger. The internal dimensions I settled on were 8in wide x 12in deep x 16in tall.
However, if you make it out of 18mm plywood like the ones I had my cabinet maker build - make the box using these dimensions.
Dimensions of sealed box version: most important is to make the width 10.0in (external) and CTC spacing between drivers 7.5in and adjust the depth and height so that you have about 24 liters volume. If you make it out of 18mm plywood it ends up about 18in H x 13.5in D. The 10F is located 4.5in top to center. You will need a rear chamber for tweeter (fullrange) so use a sports cone or wooded “Dagger” tall 4 to 5 sided pyramid. Stuff Dagger and main box with polyfill or fiberglass to taste.
New SketchUp Plans by @jrKC for sealed version here.
View attachment 1299583
The short sealed TL is made of three 6in wide x 12.5in long triangles. Construction will use 1in thick pink XPS foam and regular foam core for the short TL. The front baffle will also use a thin sub-floor plywood in order to provide adequate support for the heavy 8in driver. The design will have the option of a bass reflex vent that can be sealed for use with a Linkwitz transform, or opened up for some additional bass when group delay is not an issue. The system will use miniDSP for XO and EQ duties and bi-amped. Here are predicted results in 4pi space with baffle step and diffraction effects accounted for. XO will be at 500Hz with 4th order LR. The RS225-8 is an exceptionally flat response driver and choosing a slightly higher XO frequency will keep the distortion on the 10F very low while giving more weight to the mid bass as it comes from an 8in woofer. Calculations show that with Linkwitz transform, bass extension should be about 42Hz (f3) with max SPL around 101dB.
SPL vs freq for sealed case at 24v (no Linkwitz transform) - the hump at 2.5kHz is the baffle diffraction:
Impulse response for sealed case:
Group delay for sealed case is 2.5ms at 100Hz and 5ms at 50Hz:
For bass reflex option, here is SPL vs freq at 24v:
Here is group delay for bass reflex (2.5in dia x 11in long vent - rear firing) case, not too bad actually (about 10ms at 50Hz)
Here is the Sureply thin baffle with driver holes and drivers to show basic look:
Here is construction on XPS enclosure beginning:
Here is the enclosure with Dagger TL internally mounted and bracing, wiring, and terminal cups installed:
Currently waiting for liquid nails glue to dry...
Edit April 27, 2015: New LR2 XO @350Hz and new sound clips of many different genres. Have a listen, this speaker sounds fantastic!
10F/8424 & RS225-8 FAST Ref Monitor - Page 2 - diyAudio
Here is the new LR2 XO @350Hz:
Update April 30, 2015: New Butterworth 1st order linear phase XO (BW1 XO):
Phase for BW1 XO:
Step Response for BW1 XO:
200Hz Square Wave with BW1 XO:
1.6kHz Square Wave with BW1 XO:
New sound clip with 1st order BW1 XO: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/atta...or-10f-8424-rs225-8-fast-bw1-350hz-clip-b.asc
Edit May 14, 2015: Stereo Pair completed!
Edit Dec 16, 2015: forgot to post final lock-down configuration with Harsch XO:
IR:
Step response:
More info on final setup here: 10F/8424 & RS225-8 FAST Ref Monitor
Distortion:
Group delay about 5ms at 50Hz:
Edit Jan 5, 2018: using passive 1st order transient perfect XO for past 2 years.
Recent implementation with film caps and air core:
frequency response and phase using passive XO:
Impulse and step response:
Latest tweaks to the passive 1st order XO with simulation files:
10F/8424 & RS225-8 FAST Ref Monitor - Page 95 - diyAudio
Edit Dec 3, 2018: BOM for XO is here.
Edit: Dec 27, 2018 - Wxn just built a pair using SB23NRXS45-8 and TG9FD-4 with DSP from a DCX2496 here. The results look great and he did a great job on the cabinet:
Nice waterfall:
Edit: Dec. 27, 2018 - I should have mentioned that Aatto built a nice set using the SB23NRXS45-8 with 10F/8424 as well but using a bass reflex box and miniDSP and also with passive XO, but can't remember what he is currently using here:
Also, forgot to mention the nice set with RS225/10F that I built in espresso brown stain - these are working out real well as the WAF is excellent as evidenced by the fact that they are upstairs next to the TV 🙂 :
And of course, here is my current setup. These have been my main speakers for over 2 years now and, I keep coming back them because they sound so nice and balanced. The sharp percussion and wonderful stereo imaging also bring me back. Here they are in my speakerlab, now re-done post basement flooding (back in July 2018) with a new engineered wood flooring, so the echos are a mess and sound treatment is definitely needed now that carpet is missing. Looks nice and clean though - the clutter is building up again (mostly foam core speakers in storage around the corners).
Edit Dec 16, 2019: Thanks to JPS64 for making a super layout for the XO PCB. This will make building this speaker that much simpler.
Edit Dec 21, 2019: new TL floor stander for RS225:
10F/8424 & RS225-8 FAST / WAW Ref Monitor
Measurements of TL here.
Edit Dec 22, 2019: Just wanted to remind folks that there was a design made for this speaker XO with an RS100-8 and RS225-4 here:
10F/8424 & RS225-8 FAST / WAW Ref Monitor
Edit Mar. 20, 2020: Revised plans for the TL in all 3/4in BB plywood.
Photo of the TLs in action next to the sealed version:
Edit March 30, 2020: Vistaton B80 Variant with modified XO
Edit May 19, 2020: this is the XO for the 4ohm RS225-4. You can use your favorite 8ohm 3.5in full range on top. Just make sure it’s 8ohms and adjust R1 to taste.
Edit July 24, 2023: Keantoken developed a crossover specific to the TC9FD-8 to be used in this speaker with the RS225-8. The response looks very smooth and has a wonderful step response. More info here:
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/10f-8424-rs225-8-fast-waw-ref-monitor.273524/page-196
Schematic:
Measured frequency response appears to have 1st order XO near 1500Hz.
Nice stuffing/padding plan collected by GUJoe:
View attachment 1239397
I've never heard a 10f so I can't say I'm afraid. I think with this designs fairly simple 1st order XO, if we use a driver with a benign FR curve, them like X says, a lot of drivers will drop in and probably measure very well. What they sound like is a different (and subjective) question.
I was bowled over with mine when I first got them going. They have me bass I hadn't had in my room before. As I grew accustomed to them and having tried some B&W DM14s in my room, I realised I wanted some more HF and/or dispersion. I tried with a simple filler tweeter from 10k which worked quite well, and also (dare I say it) tried a tweeter alone in place of the PS95. Sounded great but not much headroom.
I suggest building as per the schematic with your PS95s. The learning process will be invaluable and you get then tweak or swap out drivers from there once your knowledge grows.
You could add another 4.7ohm in parallel for effective 2.5ohm at R1 and about 5.5ohm overalll tweeter impedance. If you short it you will get full sensitivity. Plus apparent 3ohm impedance which isn’t the best for some amplifiers. Full sensitivity is 85dB so bass will sound about 3dB weaker than now as overall sensitivity is 82.5dB after baffle step loss on woofer. For trial and error testing I suggest keeping XO outside and use Wago connectors. Is XO a PCB or P2P?
To be clear, here is what I am suggesting:
Ok I’m sorry for so many questions. But what is meant when you say, “ if you SHORT it, you will have full sensitivity?” What would you do to short it? And if you don’t short it, you should end up attenuation of ps95 to around the same sensitivity as rs225?You could add another 4.7ohm in parallel for effective 2.5ohm at R1 and about 5.5ohm overalll tweeter impedance. If you short it you will get full sensitivity. Plus apparent 3ohm impedance which isn’t the best for some amplifiers. Full sensitivity is 85dB so bass will sound about 3dB weaker than now as overall sensitivity is 82.5dB after baffle step loss on woofer. For trial and error testing I suggest keeping XO outside and use Wago connectors. Is XO a PCB or P2P?
To be clear, here is what I am suggesting:
