To find out why, you'd need to read what BYRTT said about it.
Also look at how Dunlavy created his transient response. It's about acoustic first order slopes, and how far down that slope stays 6dB/octave acoustically. If we take the woofer from 1 KHz to 2 KHz, it follows the 6 dB decline. The next octave it's down 9 dB. Do the same for the full range towards the other side and figure it out
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A speaker like Dunlavy's SC-IV was massaged into following a 6 dB acoustical crossover using many components (passive EQ). It isn't hard to tell this speaker is way more rough in the actual acoustical slopes. You don't put on an electrical first order slope and call it a first order. I'm not saying that XRK did in this case.
I'm not judging here. Just pointing out that a Dunlavy has been engineered to great extend to get that nice triangle STEP. They measured each driver carefully and used the components that fit the actual driver to get there. That's true dedication. That's a true first order crossover. Indeed it is very taxing on the actual components. Especially that tweeter.
However, this speaker is fine as is. Meant to be what it is I guess. A nice transient like crossover, yet not perfect. It would be very hard to get it there. But we don't need to turn every stone here. You're asking, I'm answering on what I see here.
I bet this is a fun speaker project, definitely worth it's cost in components. Transient like behavior and all, it will be (and is) a fun project for many.
As I said earlier, creating a true first order crossover is way harder than it seems. And it needs good drivers to get there and have it do so on a wider bandwidth and listening angle. The 10F is a good driver. So that's a given. But I guess any 8" would have a hard time to get the slope to follow 6dB/octave for more than what is presented here. Not trying to suck out the fun here. Go build one and listen! I bet dollar for dollar it will be worth the investment.
Semantics I guess. I have no beef here. But I do understand what's being said and where it comes from.
All I wanted to put in here that it would be wise for us, invested in sound quality, to see what those Toole style graphs are all about.
Know the answer to the question: 'why is that graph interesting for us DIY folks'
At least, for those of us interested enough to go the extra mile. Let me add, this isn't an obligation.
Speakers like this one here are a fun way to go about the hobby. I'm pretty sure it will have its rewards!
Also look at how Dunlavy created his transient response. It's about acoustic first order slopes, and how far down that slope stays 6dB/octave acoustically. If we take the woofer from 1 KHz to 2 KHz, it follows the 6 dB decline. The next octave it's down 9 dB. Do the same for the full range towards the other side and figure it out
.A speaker like Dunlavy's SC-IV was massaged into following a 6 dB acoustical crossover using many components (passive EQ). It isn't hard to tell this speaker is way more rough in the actual acoustical slopes. You don't put on an electrical first order slope and call it a first order. I'm not saying that XRK did in this case.
I'm not judging here. Just pointing out that a Dunlavy has been engineered to great extend to get that nice triangle STEP. They measured each driver carefully and used the components that fit the actual driver to get there. That's true dedication. That's a true first order crossover. Indeed it is very taxing on the actual components. Especially that tweeter.
However, this speaker is fine as is. Meant to be what it is I guess. A nice transient like crossover, yet not perfect. It would be very hard to get it there. But we don't need to turn every stone here. You're asking, I'm answering on what I see here.
I bet this is a fun speaker project, definitely worth it's cost in components. Transient like behavior and all, it will be (and is) a fun project for many.
As I said earlier, creating a true first order crossover is way harder than it seems. And it needs good drivers to get there and have it do so on a wider bandwidth and listening angle. The 10F is a good driver. So that's a given. But I guess any 8" would have a hard time to get the slope to follow 6dB/octave for more than what is presented here. Not trying to suck out the fun here. Go build one and listen! I bet dollar for dollar it will be worth the investment.
Semantics I guess. I have no beef here. But I do understand what's being said and where it comes from.
All I wanted to put in here that it would be wise for us, invested in sound quality, to see what those Toole style graphs are all about.
Know the answer to the question: 'why is that graph interesting for us DIY folks'
At least, for those of us interested enough to go the extra mile. Let me add, this isn't an obligation.
Speakers like this one here are a fun way to go about the hobby. I'm pretty sure it will have its rewards!
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Thanks again,
It's not about judging X speaker, we agree both it's not the topic, quite the opposite as I'm taking here some inspiration... it's just I do not understand all and don't want an exact copy/paste project... So the understanding phase is quite important as I do NOT understand.
Btw I'm thankfull of the inputs here and all the great documentation and measurments. It gives more to people like I am to understand what happens. It's clearly for me not to have only music as I have already loudspeakers, it's just to learn as a first project.
I understand it can have an off-topic behavior though as it's more about a construction thread around two same drivers from the beginning.
But what I like is the learning purpose of this thread : we can see the evolution of the different crossovers choice. For instance, X gave up the Harsch an tried a simple BUT6 crossover (electrical)... I wanted to know why and I have consciousness I have to understand what are phase and group delay in the filters. As you say : when talking each others with X, Byrtt and yourself: you can make shortcut in the talking because you share a close knowledge corpus... I haven't yet.
It is typically an off-set conversation behavior.
thanks guys for the numerous examples given, greattly appreciated
I will try to refer when the SB23NBAC-8 and the 10F/8424 will be in the cabinet, I have all (screw, wood, router, bibles, but the passive filter parts as I try to learn here...
It's not about judging X speaker, we agree both it's not the topic, quite the opposite as I'm taking here some inspiration... it's just I do not understand all and don't want an exact copy/paste project... So the understanding phase is quite important as I do NOT understand.
Btw I'm thankfull of the inputs here and all the great documentation and measurments. It gives more to people like I am to understand what happens. It's clearly for me not to have only music as I have already loudspeakers, it's just to learn as a first project.
I understand it can have an off-topic behavior though as it's more about a construction thread around two same drivers from the beginning.
But what I like is the learning purpose of this thread : we can see the evolution of the different crossovers choice. For instance, X gave up the Harsch an tried a simple BUT6 crossover (electrical)... I wanted to know why and I have consciousness I have to understand what are phase and group delay in the filters. As you say : when talking each others with X, Byrtt and yourself: you can make shortcut in the talking because you share a close knowledge corpus... I haven't yet.
It is typically an off-set conversation behavior.
thanks guys for the numerous examples given, greattly appreciated
I will try to refer when the SB23NBAC-8 and the 10F/8424 will be in the cabinet, I have all (screw, wood, router, bibles, but the passive filter parts as I try to learn here...
Good! A precise and clear answer, if XRK is willing to entertain a bit more off topic, I'd like to ask the following question: do you get why this speaker is measured and listened to upside down? As that's an important part to understand...
It's time for me to go (past my bedtime) but I'm pretty sure you'll get that answer from any of us.
It's time for me to go (past my bedtime) but I'm pretty sure you'll get that answer from any of us.
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I had miss readed it and believed it was just because the lobing of the first slope. So this time delay technic might also work with the tweeter above (always with mid at ears distance heigth) with a LR12 for big floorstander cabinets... and at the same time avoiding a little more floor reflexion being above one meter from the floor (ears are often around 90 cm in a chair)... or at least putting the reflexions farer and eventually behind the listener!
Wow, this is a tricky technic to add delay... must be hard to make it fine without smart calcul between the length of the hypothenus and the center to center trade-offs ?!
Well done X... I'm a bit slow to understand. The filter, lobes, group delay and phase is brand new since I decide to pull the trigger to make a loudspeaker for real -though for learning purpose more than for listening music, but one needs to check for real what the theory does.. hence my small project and questions.
thanks again for all.
Wow, this is a tricky technic to add delay... must be hard to make it fine without smart calcul between the length of the hypothenus and the center to center trade-offs ?!
Well done X... I'm a bit slow to understand. The filter, lobes, group delay and phase is brand new since I decide to pull the trigger to make a loudspeaker for real -though for learning purpose more than for listening music, but one needs to check for real what the theory does.. hence my small project and questions.
thanks again for all.
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Yes, and that why it was mentioned that this trick only works in one spot.
Stand up, and you lose this distance related delay.
But, and I'm sure for pretty much all of us here, when we really want to listen, we sit in our favorite chair, being at the best spot, and enjoy.
If I'm entertaining guests, playing background music and having people chatting in the living room (according to your local COVID restrictions...), I wouldn't worry too much about that step response graph!
I hope one day I can get lucky and build a speaker that measures as well in frequency as in time alignment.
It's all about the journey and having fun along the way!
Stand up, and you lose this distance related delay.
But, and I'm sure for pretty much all of us here, when we really want to listen, we sit in our favorite chair, being at the best spot, and enjoy.
If I'm entertaining guests, playing background music and having people chatting in the living room (according to your local COVID restrictions...), I wouldn't worry too much about that step response graph!
I hope one day I can get lucky and build a speaker that measures as well in frequency as in time alignment.
It's all about the journey and having fun along the way!
So.....2nd speaker done yesterday and gave them a good kicking last night. Was a few beverages up so it wasn't a critical listen but I was impressed.!
Been playing away in the back ground today to loosen things up. They are much more impressive at low levels than my last build. I guess the bsc is helping there. They go low...wow. I have a good bit of room gain I think due to placement near walls but all good there.
I do think I may need to lessen try padding on the PS95 though. They are very 'polite' and you could listen for hours but I think they are lacking some top end sparkle.
I'm very pleased though....and the wife likes them!
Been playing away in the back ground today to loosen things up. They are much more impressive at low levels than my last build. I guess the bsc is helping there. They go low...wow. I have a good bit of room gain I think due to placement near walls but all good there.
I do think I may need to lessen try padding on the PS95 though. They are very 'polite' and you could listen for hours but I think they are lacking some top end sparkle.
I'm very pleased though....and the wife likes them!
Yes. Put the 3.3R in series and 6.8R to ground. The one in series use a higher quality resistor if you have it but actually both are important as it is a signal divider. Generally an audio grade crossover resistor is fine. I have used basic Dayton wire sound cement filled ones with good success. Non inductive metal thin film ones would work well too but we need 10W resistors here.
... tell us what you will choose as a tweeter. The Dayton X often advises but that is out of production had very good review about its sounding equilibrium... But that are plenty good units as the SB Acoustic 26 & 29 serie ! Liked very much the SB26 STAC I was advised for refurbishing loudspeakers of a friend. Works very well above 3k hz !