I was just checking over a new pair of Faital Pro LTH102 horns I received to go with some B&C DE-250 drivers for a 3 way project using B&C 8PE21 in a WG for MF and B&C 15NDL88 for LF.
I had some questions for those with previous experience using Faital WGs -
Looking mainly at the finish work in the casting, I'm somewhat disappointed for the amount of money spent. I specifically don't like the pronounced lip in the throat entry right after the flange. but I'm not sure how much of an impact this will have, mainly on HF performance. There's about a 1-2 mm step roughly 1/2 - 3/4 way around the throat in both WGs (see pic). Seems kind of sloppy for a high priced WG IMHO.
In previous situations like this with other WGs, I did see some measurable differences when removing minor casting abnormalities in the throat. I'd rather not mess with it here if there are no detrimental effects to overall performance. Any thoughts?
I had some questions for those with previous experience using Faital WGs -
Looking mainly at the finish work in the casting, I'm somewhat disappointed for the amount of money spent. I specifically don't like the pronounced lip in the throat entry right after the flange. but I'm not sure how much of an impact this will have, mainly on HF performance. There's about a 1-2 mm step roughly 1/2 - 3/4 way around the throat in both WGs (see pic). Seems kind of sloppy for a high priced WG IMHO.
In previous situations like this with other WGs, I did see some measurable differences when removing minor casting abnormalities in the throat. I'd rather not mess with it here if there are no detrimental effects to overall performance. Any thoughts?
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Gardner-Bender Duct-Seal can address some of those concerns.
The 18Sound XT1464 horn seems to start it's expansion right at the outside face of the 7mm thick mounting flange ( somewhat unlike what you're picturing ).
🙂
The 18Sound XT1464 horn seems to start it's expansion right at the outside face of the 7mm thick mounting flange ( somewhat unlike what you're picturing ).
🙂
Thanks for the suggestion. I'm going to make a paper trace template and see if there's any extra ID material I can remove to create a smoother transition to the CD, killing two birds with one stone. Most WGs have a little bit of ID overhang, which after gentle and precise removal would solve my main issue. Just hoping there won't be a problem matching the finish inside so its not an obvious eyesore.
Well I checked the throat interface from the DE250 to the LTH102 and there's a rather abrupt step of 2 mm larger ID going into the WG. This will require filling the area with material to get the smoothest HF response. I'm pondering the situation carefully as I dont want to be stuck with modifying such an expensive WG and rendering it unreturnable.
It looks as if B&C drivers have a smaller than usual ID than other 1" drivers. Faital needs to pay a bit more attention to QC. I'm tempted to try the HF10AK driver before I ditch the WG, but I dont know the exact exit ID of the HF10AK.
It looks as if B&C drivers have a smaller than usual ID than other 1" drivers. Faital needs to pay a bit more attention to QC. I'm tempted to try the HF10AK driver before I ditch the WG, but I dont know the exact exit ID of the HF10AK.
I've tried carefully matching CD's to throat with nearly a dozen different horns....honestly, I don't think small mismatches make enough difference to be worth the effort.
I put it careful matching into another one of the " -100dB issues to (not) solve" 😉
I put it careful matching into another one of the " -100dB issues to (not) solve" 😉
I just ordered a pair of 18Sound NSD1095N. I'm hoping they will fit a little better with room to open up that step in the Faital WG. I've seen some rather significant HF issues when the CD had even a mm or so step into the WG (depending on flare rate and angle at throat), so I try to pay close attention to that potential issue. It may not be a big deal to most people, but it does matter if you want the last bit of performance in the extreme upper end of HF.
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Do you have any measurements of the throat ID on your XT1086? Is the casting clean in that area? How does it match up at the throat with the NSD1095N?
BMS4540 is a nice driver. Tends to be .a title more on the forward soundinf side. I'm aware that the general concensus is the CD doesmt have much influence over the "sound" compared to the WG, but i can definitely attest in some ways it does, specifically in THD and HF extension. I tend to favor Ti or Be drivers over synthetic polymer materials. Polyimide is definitely the better sounding polymer for diaphragms. Mylar aka polyester sounds "dirtier" and less defined. The diaphragm surround material has alot to do with the HF breakuo as well as the overall character of the CD. The DE250 is a good compromise between both polymer and metal as it uses polyimide aka Kapton.
They are made for each other by the same manufacturer, as the 1.4 Horns are designed to work with the 1.4 drivers.
Small irregularities (fraction of millimetres) are unavoidable when casting. I wouldn't worry about it.
Troels:
"The 18 SOUND NSD1095N-8 compression driver fitted with the XT1086 horn can produce up to 25 kHz, albeit with some unevenness from about 16 kHz to 25 kHz. Enough for me. I've had six of these drivers/horns now, and they all perform exactly the same. Very remarkable. But also good, because to give these drivers exactly the response I want, precision components are needed."
Partly agree, imho the best (and most natural/neutral sounding) small diaphragms are generally soft-suspended, metallic (Al, Be, Ti,) and dome-shaped.
Such as these:
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If an upper limit of 15-16 kHz isn't objectionable, a well-preserved Phenolic diaphragm can sound very nice. Based on home use of course.
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Here's an anomaly on a JBL waveguide from the lansing website, post #79, second picture. The handle Zilch was also worried about that, just like you are now. So, brand and price actually do not matter, most parts are made sloppily anyway.
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulle...mp-Dirty-4430-Inspired-Two-Ways-Part-II/page6
In the past, I have once ground a 0.25" throat constriction (possibly due to a wrong drill) from a shallow 2kHz horn that I use with 8" woofers. If I remember correctly, the effect of the step was some kind of a pseudo mid-range / low treble punch (possibly diffraction) that sounded harsh to my ears. But, your ring, at 2mm, appears to be rather benign, so I would simply have it removed, without much HF worry.
In my opinion, the path must be smooth from the phase plug well past the throat without any abrupt changes in coverage angle. However, some people say these small things do not matter, opinions vary.
This?
Such casting defects are undesirable, but should have little effect relative to the grossness of the constriction (that ends in a sharp edged diffraction slot).
The SRX712 horns that Zilch shows at the bottom of the same page have a 'clean throat' and are - apart from the mounting holes - definitely preferable to the 2332 horns. Comments are made about possible ringing.
Plastic clones of the bigger SRX722 horns are offered en masse on aliexpress. Also available with 1" throat, without mounting holes.
Any irregularities are quite easy to smooth out.
I've owned several SRX series cabs and have seen that "appature lip" on some. I ground it down on one to see what it did as I had a damaged flange on one, so no big loss. The results were strange and in some ways beneficial in smoothing response up top. The CSD was where it made the most noticeable difference. I wish I still had that data as it was an eye opener as to what small surface defect and variations in the throat can cause. The amount of irregularities in my WGs is definitely less and probably a non issue, but there's that element of OCD that kicks in and tells me to try making it perfect so its the best it can be. I will be doing measurements before and after if I do keep those WGs. I may use one of the many others I have if they measure and perform better, specifically for time alignment purposes.