Difference is they arent running a business with much of it being mods for other speakers.
The whole power cable burn in should be enough to write Danny off entirely.
I’ll post first and then see what everyone else has said.
If you are in a room, ifnyoufairlly even bass thru-out the room the first is step 1, and often DSP on top of that can help if your room is “typical” (ie a rectangular box)
Usually low bass from the same place as the stuff up higher is a compromise.
They are? You haven’t dug deep enuff yet. Danny certainly talks a good game. Not as flowery as Deckard. Don’t get me started onthe NoRez.
I expect value given cost of shipping to Oz would be poor. I expect any number of designs here, tailored to what is available in Oz would be much better value. And you certainly don’t want to ship MDF across the Pacific (depending where you are in OZ, decent plywood is often hard to find, and one is forced to use MDF..
dave
If you are in a room, ifnyoufairlly even bass thru-out the room the first is step 1, and often DSP on top of that can help if your room is “typical” (ie a rectangular box)
Usually low bass from the same place as the stuff up higher is a compromise.
They are? You haven’t dug deep enuff yet. Danny certainly talks a good game. Not as flowery as Deckard. Don’t get me started onthe NoRez.
I expect value given cost of shipping to Oz would be poor. I expect any number of designs here, tailored to what is available in Oz would be much better value. And you certainly don’t want to ship MDF across the Pacific (depending where you are in OZ, decent plywood is often hard to find, and one is forced to use MDF..
dave
@planet10 fair enough. I'm not evaluating GR on their speaker upgrades, just on the consensus of reviews of their completed loud speakers (some of which are on this forum).
Maybe I should ask this question - what are the most highly regarded alternative builds out there? The room I use is 4m x 7m, low level listening (<60dB). My main criteria are: decent mid level tone and sound great at low volumes.
Was considering standard designs and very high efficiency as well. Space is not much of a concern.
Maybe I should ask this question - what are the most highly regarded alternative builds out there? The room I use is 4m x 7m, low level listening (<60dB). My main criteria are: decent mid level tone and sound great at low volumes.
Was considering standard designs and very high efficiency as well. Space is not much of a concern.
@Deedy - I've been an audio enthusiast for about 50 years and have owned numerous fairly decent commercial speakers including multiple Magnepans, multiple Revels, Duntech Sovereigns, Totems, and others.
I built my first pair of GR-Research speakers (NX-Oticas) about six years ago and was very impressed. I've now built a total of six of Danny's designs including two pair of OB servo subs, the NX-Studios, Bullies and Line Forces.
While I can see how folks are put off by Danny's "upgrade" videos, his own speaker designs are well designed and sound great. I doubt if many of the Danny-haters have ever heard his speakers.
Based on your requirements, I would take a look at the NX-Studio and add a couple of subs. The NX-Studio won't play super loud, but it sounds very nice from about 70Hz on up. The NEO3 tweeter excels in an open-baffle arrangement, and the NX-Studio's design allows the speaker to be placed closer to the wall behind it while retaining the open-airy sound-stage. This speaker is also a lot smaller and lighter so if you did decide to purchase a flat pack, it will be a lot cheaper to ship.
I built my first pair of GR-Research speakers (NX-Oticas) about six years ago and was very impressed. I've now built a total of six of Danny's designs including two pair of OB servo subs, the NX-Studios, Bullies and Line Forces.
While I can see how folks are put off by Danny's "upgrade" videos, his own speaker designs are well designed and sound great. I doubt if many of the Danny-haters have ever heard his speakers.
Based on your requirements, I would take a look at the NX-Studio and add a couple of subs. The NX-Studio won't play super loud, but it sounds very nice from about 70Hz on up. The NEO3 tweeter excels in an open-baffle arrangement, and the NX-Studio's design allows the speaker to be placed closer to the wall behind it while retaining the open-airy sound-stage. This speaker is also a lot smaller and lighter so if you did decide to purchase a flat pack, it will be a lot cheaper to ship.
They are not as sensitive as many of GR's other speakers at around 88db/w, but if you generally play at low volumes, you have a lot of flexibility. I'm driving mine with a DIY Purifi amp in my bedroom system and they sound very nice. I've also tried them with my 300B PSET amps and these worked very well, so I don't think they are particularly picky.
In most cases a quite efficient direct radiator might get you circa 93 dB. High efficiency typicaly requires a horn/waveguide tweeter and Pro woofers.
At the levels you suggest — and the moderate size room (2.x m ceiling?)na good 1W Class A amplifier would have more than enuff power. ACAmini would be interesting. Given the cost of the GR somethung like a 20 to 1 cost ratio. You could do a lot worse.
Also factoring in is your taste … at those levels most of the short comigs of my favoured FR/single driver loudspeakers would likely do the job. I suspect that a set of these Alpair 12p in Pensils (or Joan) would actually satisfy your requirements, smaller might make it easier to deal with lowest bass modes.
https://www.darcher.com.au/speaker-drivers/woofers-subwoofers/mark-audio-alpair-12p
But hold on: D’’Archer till has some of the NLA MAOP 10. And ifthe price is right a margin. These are one of the priciest MA drivers and competes with drivers that cost manytimes more. Not as sensitive, a bit less bass potential (maller cone), but more “accurate” with a more extended top-endl.
And LOTs of budget left to ensure it gets fed a very good signal. And woofers (even small ones) and better DSP could be a later addition if you feel the need. THink of them as acoustic room EQ, perhaps adding some weight, extention of the Prnsild is good … the original Super Pensil 12 (with the some 3dB less efficient metal cone driver) was designed specifically for a much larger room in NZ.
That is my taste thou, yours could well be different. Take a dozen very good loudspeakers, they can all be equally valid, but sound quite different. There are many ways to go.
Check out some of their other drivers for multi-way or woofers — you said you have 2-way standmountsyou are haoppy with? Opens up the possiiloity of just doing woofer/stands for them.
BTW, if just used on woofers REL-style the shortcomings of the cheap miniDSP might (mostly) disappear.
dave
@planet10 A few questions-
1. Are you suggesting a box with just this one driver? Do you have links to existing builds and measurements?
2. "THink of them as acoustic room EQ, perhaps adding some weight" can you explain further?
3. "BTW, if just used on woofers REL-style the shortcomings of the cheap miniDSP might (mostly) disappear." How will it do that exactly? Do you mean not using the miniDSP at all?
1. Are you suggesting a box with just this one driver? Do you have links to existing builds and measurements?
2. "THink of them as acoustic room EQ, perhaps adding some weight" can you explain further?
3. "BTW, if just used on woofers REL-style the shortcomings of the cheap miniDSP might (mostly) disappear." How will it do that exactly? Do you mean not using the miniDSP at all?
It really doesn't. It's using some knock off tweeters that Danny bought which have some shockingly high distortion. Very rarely do you see a tweeter with such high distortion. This graph is from the NX-Bravo but the Studio uses the same tweeter.
Even a cheap Micca speaker makes the knock off GR tweeter look like a joke. The GR tweeter distortion is a mere 20db down at 86db, while the Micca is around ~55db down from the signal. The GR tweeter is just straight up a piece of junk.
That user is all about full range drivers, but they have major drawbacks that most listeners find objectionable. Extremely narrow dispersion, cone break up and resonances, and high IMD. They typically fall short of a well executed multiway speaker. Even a cheap c-note speaker kit is likely to outperform almost any full range driver due their inherent limitations.
Good diy speakers exhibit very similar performamce metrics and plenty of documentation to back it up. They all have neutral on axis response, good dispersion (off axis), and distortion is largely in check. Something like a Mechano23 is a good example of this. MTG-Designs has many good speakers, Heissmann acoustics has great (but paid) designs. In this day and age is makes zero sense to entertain only anecdotes of others and put effort into building subpar speakers. If the speaker doesn't have extensive anaylsis coupled with subjective impressions, it's not worth even thinking about. Unfortunately the majority of the DIY community has yet to catch up with the times, which is why you get suggestions for speakers with terrible distortion.
The dac in minidsp flex is quite good. More than good enough for any home stereo
https://heissmann-acoustics.de/en/dxt-wave/
Proac has some really nice sounding speakers. If I were you I'd aim higher than the Bully's if you want a good upgrade. I had a pair of Encores I got for cheap used on Facebook. They were decent. Nice mid range. Limited output though. I don't think I could live with them long term. Left me wanting more in a lot of areas
You also mentioned Vandersteen's. It might be worth inspecting what you like so much about them, and that way you can make a more informed decision on what to build. Their claim to fame is phase coherence. There are a few DIY speakers that also achieve this.
Xrk971's 10F/RS225 and Jeff Bagby's Kairos come to mind. The Kairos might be perfect for you, because Jeff Bagby designed a partnering subwoofer that acts as speaker stands for them. You could build those, and try them all together, and if you still have bass issues you can try moving the subs around and buy some stands for the kairos
It should be noted the audibility of phase distortion is not well established (with speakers at least) and achieving a phase coherent loudspeaker generally comes with some major costs. Full range speakers naturally fall into this camp, which wafflesomd pointed out some of the drawbacks of. MarkAudio CHN110 looks like a pretty good and reasonably priced option if you want to try that route
https://heissmann-acoustics.de/en/dxt-wave/
Proac has some really nice sounding speakers. If I were you I'd aim higher than the Bully's if you want a good upgrade. I had a pair of Encores I got for cheap used on Facebook. They were decent. Nice mid range. Limited output though. I don't think I could live with them long term. Left me wanting more in a lot of areas
You also mentioned Vandersteen's. It might be worth inspecting what you like so much about them, and that way you can make a more informed decision on what to build. Their claim to fame is phase coherence. There are a few DIY speakers that also achieve this.
Xrk971's 10F/RS225 and Jeff Bagby's Kairos come to mind. The Kairos might be perfect for you, because Jeff Bagby designed a partnering subwoofer that acts as speaker stands for them. You could build those, and try them all together, and if you still have bass issues you can try moving the subs around and buy some stands for the kairos
It should be noted the audibility of phase distortion is not well established (with speakers at least) and achieving a phase coherent loudspeaker generally comes with some major costs. Full range speakers naturally fall into this camp, which wafflesomd pointed out some of the drawbacks of. MarkAudio CHN110 looks like a pretty good and reasonably priced option if you want to try that route
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@Bryguy thanks for that. Food for thought.
@wafflesomd is there a consensus sub design for 2.2 channel hifi? it doesn't need to go super deep, however it needs to be fast and musical.
If price is no object, what do you recommend for loudspeaker projects (stand mount + subs)
@wafflesomd is there a consensus sub design for 2.2 channel hifi? it doesn't need to go super deep, however it needs to be fast and musical.
If price is no object, what do you recommend for loudspeaker projects (stand mount + subs)
1/ Lots of threads on builds … enire threads on these drivers. Measurments are something i only pay cursory attention to. An on-axis only curve is not very useful without off-axis info as weel. And it tells you nothigng about the DDR.
2/ As the length of the wavelengths become significant wrt room dimensions you get nodes and nulls building up in the room. 2 woofers across the front can be placed, phased, and level set to minimize those across the axis defined by the woofers. Add rears and you can works on all the modes in the horizontal plane. To go over the top onwards in each of the 8 corners to also do vertical modes.
3/ REL-style: woofer are dialed in below the natural bottom of the loudspeaker. With the mi niDSP only on the lowest frequencies, the major shortcomings of the built-in ADC/DAC will be out of band. And your ear/brain tend to be less discerning withthe really low stuff.
Now the RELs (that i am familiar with) have no DSP. With DSP i expect one could run them up into the range of the mains to help even thereLF anomials out out.
Those may raise as many questions as they resolve.
dave
The very best may surprise you (MAOP 10 us one of those). And at the levels suggested <60 dB (even with 20 dB crests [classical music usually) most of the issues people have with FRs.
If i find a single FR driver "needs more” i first add helper woofers (not subWoofers — those would be deplyed only in the very lowest octaves). Relieves the FR of bass duties allowing them to do the midTop better than run FR. You can have as much bass as you wouldlike within size & $$$ budgets. XO at or below the quarterwave of the centre-to-centre distance or the driver array becomes essentially coincident. Like a coax but without the need for time delay on the tweeter. Often low enuff that bi-amping makes sense.
No XO where the ear is most critical.
dave
Size is no issue, whatever sounds the best. Output wise, it only needs to go up to 60dB at say, 5m. I don't listen loud- therefore the speaker should not sound dull at these lower volumes
Like this but bigger — these are satelittes plus separate wooferStand. But these would likely suit your needs fine as well,
dave
That is extremely quiet. I would be amazed if the peaks of your music only reach 60db. If indeed you really do listen that quietly, you really don't need much at all. Even very cheap drivers can perform incredibly well at that volume. If widerange drivers disperse widely enough for your needs, they would serve you quite nicely I think. I personally really like WAW's, and I haven't even heard one that was particularly well designed. In the next few months I'm interested in designing one using Peerless TC9FD and SLS 830667 sealed. That's not to say a waw would suit you better than a conventional multi way speaker
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Ok 60db average, you should probably get a speaker capable of ~90dB peaks. You might have already said but what is the size of your room? And will the subs be placed near any boundaries?