Moderate size room low spl needs you don't really need a "cost no object" solution. Low cost drivers will perform exceptionally well given your needs. Sure you could make a design using exotic drivers, but any benefits would basically be lost on you. If I were you I'd get a pair of sealed 10" subwoofers. Try those out with your proacs and if you are still unsatisfied can think about some other bookshelf speakers. Since you already have a minidsp flex, I would buy an external pro sound amp to power 2 passive subs. The Peerless SLS 830668 is well suited to a sealed enclosure. Get a Behringer A800 and you're good to go. (Or something else. I think some people have had reliability issues with the A800, but it's generally well regarded). The SLS is low distortion, and the sealed bass rolloff and lack of port noise will give you that "fast" bass you want
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@Bryguy I like the sound of this plan.
1. I have this OCD hangup about not being able to use my Denafrips Pontus 2 (or higher) DAC with the miniDSP FLEX. Does rolling off the mains and all the other stuff DSP brings, outweigh the loss of a high end DAC?
2. Is this DIY subwoofer going to be appreciably better than two SVS sb1000 subs? Does it matter that this DIY sub won't have all those knobs and switches for phase etec. or can the miniDSP handle all of that?
1. I have this OCD hangup about not being able to use my Denafrips Pontus 2 (or higher) DAC with the miniDSP FLEX. Does rolling off the mains and all the other stuff DSP brings, outweigh the loss of a high end DAC?
2. Is this DIY subwoofer going to be appreciably better than two SVS sb1000 subs? Does it matter that this DIY sub won't have all those knobs and switches for phase etec. or can the miniDSP handle all of that?
The minidsp can do everything the svs subs can do. Extra knobs would be redundant. I doubt it will be better, but it will be considerably cheaper and for your use case just as good.
There is a strong argument to be made that the DAC in the MiniDSP is actually better than the Denafrips. Once you factor in all the features the MiniDSP has, the Denafrips starts to look like an antiquated piece of audio jewelry.. the manufacturing process of R2R DACs is more expensive than that of the MiniDSP, but there's really nothing that suggests it's better. DACs convert 0's and 1's to analog signals. That conversion can be done almost perfectly without spending much money. There might be audible differences once manufacturers start distorting the signal wildly like Denafrips does, but id hardly call their stuff better. Mostly though, it's confirmation bias, placebo effect, and the satisfaction of looking at a hulking metal brick that makes Denafrips DACs sound so good. I say this just having sold my SMSL D400EX ($1000 USD) for the built in DAC in my Wiim Ultra, and having heard the Ares 12th anniversary
There is a strong argument to be made that the DAC in the MiniDSP is actually better than the Denafrips. Once you factor in all the features the MiniDSP has, the Denafrips starts to look like an antiquated piece of audio jewelry.. the manufacturing process of R2R DACs is more expensive than that of the MiniDSP, but there's really nothing that suggests it's better. DACs convert 0's and 1's to analog signals. That conversion can be done almost perfectly without spending much money. There might be audible differences once manufacturers start distorting the signal wildly like Denafrips does, but id hardly call their stuff better. Mostly though, it's confirmation bias, placebo effect, and the satisfaction of looking at a hulking metal brick that makes Denafrips DACs sound so good. I say this just having sold my SMSL D400EX ($1000 USD) for the built in DAC in my Wiim Ultra, and having heard the Ares 12th anniversary
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I have limited experience personally, though I'm building a pair of Xrk971's XSD's so that will change soon. I am very interested in OB bass. It might be a good option for you. Many people have tried both and it's a tossup which they prefer. I would try sealed subs first properly integrated, since they're typically way cheaper. Others can chime in
There are very significant benefits to making a (sub)Woofers push-push. 2 off 2x10", 2x9", 2x8" …
dave
There are quite a few posts about basic sub builds. Are there any which are low risk and tested?
I prefer simple sealed. Especially if you have DSP. Will blend better with room gain and can be EQed to go as low as excursion and power allow. With 4 x10” — you have the money and size aowance — can move quite a bit of air. At 60 dB average you have a lot of flexibility. Make them tallish, put a slab of marble or ganite or solid surface material on top and use as a stand for a plant or sculpture to “disguise" them.
Wha decent woofers/subWoofer are available in Oz?
Looking at D’Archer they have limited range of interesting (sub)Woofers: https://www.darcher.com.au/speaker-drivers/woofers-subwoofers/
Tangband — from comments — hsve some small 6” ih that go really low for such a small driver,
And they carry the CSS SDX10 which i have used and have another set to replace those — got sold while i had my long stay in hospital. This time i’ll uild the taller ones. But the price! Illustrates the increased cost of shipping bthese days, https://www.darcher.com.au/speaker-drivers/woofers-subwoofers/css-sdx10-xbl2-subwoofer
dave
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Sealed subwoofers are not very critical. Find a driver you like and someone here can tell you the right volume box to put it in. Just make sure it's well braced. The tricky part is dialing in placement and EQ/delay
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Seems totally overkill for his purposes. Nice sub though. Some people like commuting with super cars, but it wouldn't be my first recommendation 🙂
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Jaycar is often mentioned. They have an 8 ($45), a 10, and a 12 ($99). These fit into the
The 10” is useless for this ap. and it looks like the 8” goes lower than the 12.
https://www.jaycar.com.au/woofer-speaker-driver-8-inch/p/CW2196
https://www.jaycar.com.au/woofer-speaker-driver-12-inch/p/CW2199
You could use more 8” per box or more boxes, but the 12s will move more air for the $$$.
dave
Can I check if you really listen to music at 60 dB average because that will have a significant influence on appropriate hardware. Is this background music while you concentrate on other activities? It is the level of conversation in a quiet room and below the level most people would choose to listen to a TV never mind music. If correct then there is little need for conventional high fidelity hardware because the high and low frequencies will be perceived as suppressed with much of the detail too quiet to be audible as will the lowest frequencies people often use subs to reproduce.
To reproduce music cleanly in your room at standard levels (e.g. the level in a cinema) would require main speakers typically sized something like a 10-12" woofer (or eqivalent mulitple woofers), 4-5" mid and 1" tweeter. Perhaps an 8" woofer depending on how the subs are used. At 60 dB average the sizing requirements and cost reduce greatly. "Full range" speakers become an option in terms of SPL though not in terms of conventional sound quality (ragged frequency response, ragged directivity narrowing considerably at high frequencies, audible resonances, etc...). Some people are enthusiastic about such speakers but having listened to some examples at audio shows and shops I remain baffled as to why. I recommend having a listen first or treating a purchase as an experiment. If unimpressed you will likely be told by enthusiasts that you listened to the wrong examples, bought the wrong drivers, used the wrong cabinet loading or something similar.
To reproduce music cleanly in your room at standard levels (e.g. the level in a cinema) would require main speakers typically sized something like a 10-12" woofer (or eqivalent mulitple woofers), 4-5" mid and 1" tweeter. Perhaps an 8" woofer depending on how the subs are used. At 60 dB average the sizing requirements and cost reduce greatly. "Full range" speakers become an option in terms of SPL though not in terms of conventional sound quality (ragged frequency response, ragged directivity narrowing considerably at high frequencies, audible resonances, etc...). Some people are enthusiastic about such speakers but having listened to some examples at audio shows and shops I remain baffled as to why. I recommend having a listen first or treating a purchase as an experiment. If unimpressed you will likely be told by enthusiasts that you listened to the wrong examples, bought the wrong drivers, used the wrong cabinet loading or something similar.
Before I listen critically to any gear in my home or at someone else's I check that the average reading on the SPL app on my phone is 50dB for the music playing. My room is very quiet and I don't need it any louder. Sometimes when I really like something it might be at 60-65dB. It will be at this level for one track, then back down. I find cinemas too loud.
My Proacs are regarded as sounding lively at low volumes. I can definitely pick out differences in amps and speakers at this volume, no problem.
There's a guy selling 2 of these used for the equivalent of USD 670:
https://www.vaf.com.au/products/vaf-mpb-sw2-subwoofer-each
Will these suffice?
My Proacs are regarded as sounding lively at low volumes. I can definitely pick out differences in amps and speakers at this volume, no problem.
There's a guy selling 2 of these used for the equivalent of USD 670:
https://www.vaf.com.au/products/vaf-mpb-sw2-subwoofer-each
Will these suffice?
My system is 4-way fully active, with 4 Rythmiks below 60Hz. My DAC is a Lynx Hilo, routed so the lower channel goes into optic SPDIF output conneted to a miniDSP 2x4HD which outputs to the 4 subs. This allows to implement Multi Sub Optimizer (MSO) at the miniDSP and have the 4 subs integrate to a flat in-room response. You can look up YouTube tutorials and in the miniDSP website for how to do this.
I'm very happy with this.
I have some doubts about foreground music at 50 dB which is a lowish background level one can talk over at normal conversation levels. If you get the opportunity checking your phone app against something else might prove useful. Nonetheless you appear to listen to music at very low sound levels which significantly reducess the size, cost and to some extent quality requirements of your audio hardware.
Reducing SPL with any speaker makes the sound duller with the lower perceived level of low and high frequencies compared to the mids and some detail becoming too quiet to be audible. It's why small cheap speakers usually have a smiley equalisation and why many years ago when the technical sound quality of home audio received more attention amplifiers tended to have loudness buttons for listening at lower levels.
At low frequencies sound quality is almost completely dominated by the room response and how the speakers interact with it. We are pretty insensitive to distortion at low frequencies compared to midrange which means so long as a driver doesn't move out of it's reasonably linear range (or isn't aggressively budget and doesn't have a reasonably linear range) nonlinear distortion is going to be inaudible in use. Standard range drivers of sufficient cone area are fine. More expensive drivers (e.g. servo controlled) can provide a larger linear range enabling the use of smaller drivers or playing louder cleanly. This isn't of much relevance when listening at very low sound levels.
What tends to be of more relevance is sealed vs ported because this influences how loud and deep a sub can play before introducing audible nonlinear distortion. Poor porting design can cause several issues but well designed 10" ported subs are perhaps the most common to be found distributed in a recording studio. When using mulitple subs for music there is no need for them to be large.
The configuration (plus room control software and hardware) looks OK. How well implemented they are in terms of driver, power supply & amplifier reliability (needs watching with second hand subs), etc... I don't know.
In your case for very low sound levels in a small-medium sized room 4 x 8" sealed subs might be preferable because they will be smaller and easier to place depending on the room layout and can further improve the low frequency room response. Amplifier channels separate from the speakers can also help with the placing and making maintenance easier and/or cheaper. Hard to be too specific though because it depends on the importance of the low frequency response to you given it is inevitably going to be large, expensive and complex to address.
4 subs and their cables will start to get a bit much for my space. I will keep it in mind for the ultimate setup