Whilst what @profiguy says is true, this is a very common phenomenon amongst virtually all drivers due to cone meeting the surround.
The SB34RNX76-4 also has one, around 700Hz:
Measurements from @hifijim:
Reference: https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...c-3-way-discussion-thread.423939/post-7931141
The Peerless 830669 (SLS-12") as a comparison might not appear to have one at first glance-
https://www.products-peerless.com/en/transducer/166
But it's there around about 710Hz (dip in frequency response with corresponding blip in impedance response)
BUT so does the SLS-10"- the graphs indicate around about 1KHz: (dip in frequency response with corresponding blip in impedance response)
The main practical relevance is that you have to manage that with a crossover - ideally cross before the dip.
...more to come
The SB34RNX76-4 also has one, around 700Hz:
Measurements from @hifijim:
Reference: https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...c-3-way-discussion-thread.423939/post-7931141
The Peerless 830669 (SLS-12") as a comparison might not appear to have one at first glance-
https://www.products-peerless.com/en/transducer/166
But it's there around about 710Hz (dip in frequency response with corresponding blip in impedance response)
BUT so does the SLS-10"- the graphs indicate around about 1KHz: (dip in frequency response with corresponding blip in impedance response)
The main practical relevance is that you have to manage that with a crossover - ideally cross before the dip.
...more to come
I'll post later why I continue to be interested in the LaVoce as a possible 3rd option between the SLS 12" and the SB34. It may (probably won't?) happen anyway.
I have to say, that the SB34NRX75-7 available for €170 is amazing. I know
The SLS 10 & 12 are more sub than midwoof, 250 to 300 Hz acoustical is perhaps the best it could do staying clean, one have a big THD raise around 500 hz if I am correct (see dibirama links I posted before). For I a crossover between 200 Hz to 300 Hz is the targett, better to have the midwoof above playing the wilder bandwidth possible 2.5 to 3 octaves.
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I don't know what to make of the distortion measurements there. Everything was in the 2% range. Seemed high to me.
Here's something I built. Not tested as loud, but loud enough I think. It's really not good to compare distortion measurements made by different people, but all the drivers measured high on that site.
My speaker.
Here's something I built. Not tested as loud, but loud enough I think. It's really not good to compare distortion measurements made by different people, but all the drivers measured high on that site.
My speaker.
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Damn, I just saw the sls-12 is 8 mm Xmax and they made a ripole with two !!!!! limit-limit
off topic, appologises : Ahaha, I know what I'm going to do ! I have two 12PR320 already ! 7.5 Xmax and 93dB/2.83V at 100 Hz ; Fs : 42 Hz ; Qts : 0.4 (a bit low)
If I purchase two others I can make Jazzman ripole. Cut off 150 Hz max due to the bump of the ripole layout. But the ripole extends the Fs by - 10 hz something, so 32 Hz territory is enough for music ! ahaha, overkill ! then one NE-149w-08 open back tunnel à la Campbell's Finalist, a 22 taf/g above et voilà !
Okay, for this project as a lurker, the SLS-12 or SLS-10" or the SB34RNX, have my vote, and still thinking the subject of this thread is a lower cost design for max of people, so SLS won !
Just my 2 cents
off topic, appologises : Ahaha, I know what I'm going to do ! I have two 12PR320 already ! 7.5 Xmax and 93dB/2.83V at 100 Hz ; Fs : 42 Hz ; Qts : 0.4 (a bit low)
If I purchase two others I can make Jazzman ripole. Cut off 150 Hz max due to the bump of the ripole layout. But the ripole extends the Fs by - 10 hz something, so 32 Hz territory is enough for music ! ahaha, overkill ! then one NE-149w-08 open back tunnel à la Campbell's Finalist, a 22 taf/g above et voilà !
Okay, for this project as a lurker, the SLS-12 or SLS-10" or the SB34RNX, have my vote, and still thinking the subject of this thread is a lower cost design for max of people, so SLS won !
Just my 2 cents
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Ok...Progress!!
We are moving forward with the Peerless SLS 860669 12" subwoofer as the woofer for the a low-cost version of the Budget Classic 3-way. BC3W-A (A = Affordable). I would like to move on to the selection of a midrange driver.
[I believe there is a consensus around the SB Acoustics SB34NRX75-6 for a more premium version. However, I don't know if anyone is willing to commit to building and measuring that yet. However, to the extent someone want to take the lead and select a midrange and then tweeter for that version, that would be great. I would call that the BC3W-C (C=Connoisseur). If we decide to design something in the middle, that can be BC3W-B.]
Here is a list of 5" midranges. This is not meant to be exhaustive, just some things that seemed to make sense. I am not that familiar with LaVoce, Visaton, Ciare, Beyma, etc. so feel free to add to the list. I would suggest that for a budget-themed speaker we should aim for the best sound quality for the money we can get, not necessarily the best we can get. However, I also think having a really nice midrange can really add to the appeal to build this speaker. I also think we should try to pick a round driver for simplicity to build, but I also think there may be some Peerless with truncated frames that are worth considering. {The FaitalPRO has been brought up a few times in the thread and is very appealing to me, although it is also the only one I don't own.]
We are moving forward with the Peerless SLS 860669 12" subwoofer as the woofer for the a low-cost version of the Budget Classic 3-way. BC3W-A (A = Affordable). I would like to move on to the selection of a midrange driver.
[I believe there is a consensus around the SB Acoustics SB34NRX75-6 for a more premium version. However, I don't know if anyone is willing to commit to building and measuring that yet. However, to the extent someone want to take the lead and select a midrange and then tweeter for that version, that would be great. I would call that the BC3W-C (C=Connoisseur). If we decide to design something in the middle, that can be BC3W-B.]
Here is a list of 5" midranges. This is not meant to be exhaustive, just some things that seemed to make sense. I am not that familiar with LaVoce, Visaton, Ciare, Beyma, etc. so feel free to add to the list. I would suggest that for a budget-themed speaker we should aim for the best sound quality for the money we can get, not necessarily the best we can get. However, I also think having a really nice midrange can really add to the appeal to build this speaker. I also think we should try to pick a round driver for simplicity to build, but I also think there may be some Peerless with truncated frames that are worth considering. {The FaitalPRO has been brought up a few times in the thread and is very appealing to me, although it is also the only one I don't own.]
- SB Acoustics SB15PFC25 $35 / €29
- Dayton SIG150-4 $42 / €45
- FaitalPRO 5FE120 (125 is round) $50 / €42
- SB Acoustics SB15MFC30 $62 / €69
- SB Acoustics SB15NRX2C30 $63 / €69
- Peerless NE149W-08 $76 / (I am not sure if this is available in Europe, although it looks available on Aliexpress)
- ?
- ?
With two in basket and connected I have 199 for each so 398 for 2
I don't succeed to have less. I never baught something on thlp so maybe you have more discount. Or you don't have TVA ?
yeah perhaps it is incentives for already customers.
Ae4audio, what is the sensivity target needed at minima, please ?
Ae4audio, what is the sensivity target needed at minima, please ?
All the spec sheets & lists I've seen say 10.9mm. Same as the SLS10.
Peerless has a lot of models. These are the SLS-P830668 (10) and SLS-P830669 (12).
The spec sheet at PE says xmax = 8.3mm
I'd like other people's thoughts on this, but my quick estimate is 86db 2.83V/1m sensitivity minimum.
baffle step loss for the woofer : -4 dB between 250 Hz cut off and F3; same for the mid between the woof cut off till the treble?
91 dB - 4 dB : 87 dBfor the woof, so perhaps the mid should be 91 dB minima ? Or do you mean, better to choose it for the crossover always 2 to 3 dB less for the mid ?
I mean the SLS12 is measured at 91.5 dB, not 89 dB sensivity of the datasheet according Dibirama. So people need to measure one with added mass to be sure.
91 dB - 4 dB : 87 dBfor the woof, so perhaps the mid should be 91 dB minima ? Or do you mean, better to choose it for the crossover always 2 to 3 dB less for the mid ?
I mean the SLS12 is measured at 91.5 dB, not 89 dB sensivity of the datasheet according Dibirama. So people need to measure one with added mass to be sure.
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On EU brands, Visaton and Monacor keep using old designs that are not bad, but certainly not the best deal. Beyma, Faital are newer in design and often better (more scientific) designed and as cheap in some models. Keep also the frame in mind, a on circular frame is very hard to flushmount, what i think is necesairy
But Peerless got a lot of good small mids also, it's just finding which one fits and is availeble to the general public. I also like the 6FE125
But Peerless got a lot of good small mids also, it's just finding which one fits and is availeble to the general public. I also like the 6FE125
I’d like to see the OSMC FaitalPro doing that SPL with halfway Xmax… You could safely apply a lower tuning to extend the in room response without getting in trouble with Xmax in the 60-70Hz range. I don’t want to exaggerate the importance of long stroke woofers, but when you’re building a threeway it’s a kind of a no-brainer, as is know for decades. We might, because of all Bluetooth apparel, have become used to harmonics of bass instead of to the bass notes themselves.
I think that is good for a full BSC design. If these are placed near a wall, would it be better to have less compensation? I don't place my speakers close to walls, so I don't know. I would assume that a 90dB mid could be made to work over a good range. Most of the Sims I've done loose some SPL on the mid due to the x-over. On the other hand, I've seen where the mid response can have a couple dB increase due to the x-over.
Also, the woofer low-pass may tend to increase the 100hz range some.
Does the look of the mid matter. I mean the shape. Many drivers have a non-round frame, but are made for surface mounting. Something like the Peerless HDS woofers for example. They are truncated, but really not intended for recess mounting. https://www.parts-express.com/pedocs/specs/264-1090--tymphany-hds-p830874-spec-sheet.pdf
Yes it matters : easy to build = cheaper. If the shape is odd, go Troels and Gravsen way : he doesn't flush it with the Faital mid he uses for his 12 3WC ! But this midrange has lowish voice coil heigth, so feasible for the 12 dB filters that has his preference.
Maybe also the woofer has no need to be flushed. We know tweeter always need it though, for smoother difraction !
Maybe also the woofer has no need to be flushed. We know tweeter always need it though, for smoother difraction !