Yes. And it is a clear choice in the high-performance 3-way thread. And it is expensive.
Which is why we created this "Budget" 3-way thread.
The SLS-P830668 is a better option i think, but on price it's what i think is the goal (both actually). But for a 12" it's a good one and availeble chep here and in the US. So if you insist on 12", it's one of the better options.
@A4eaudio -- As the OP, are you in agreement with @waxx that this design must exclude any features not in vintage 3-way speakers? I refer specifically to waveguide tweeters, whether stock or modded. Or baffle edge round overs.
Actually, @waxx , your insistence on "vintage purity" is a bit odd as you have no intention of building one. If that's so, why espouse such a tightly defined limits of the design targets? Why is this important to you? I agree with the need to define targets clearly but not the need to restrict us from applying relevant knowledge/technology that don't actually add much cost.
Actually, @waxx , your insistence on "vintage purity" is a bit odd as you have no intention of building one. If that's so, why espouse such a tightly defined limits of the design targets? Why is this important to you? I agree with the need to define targets clearly but not the need to restrict us from applying relevant knowledge/technology that don't actually add much cost.
@mikessi someone needs to play the devil's advocate. And as no others do it...
I just want to avoid that we build a "budget" one that no budget speaker builders will do because it's to expensive. The SB34 vresion is already covered in Andy's tread, so making a copy that is not or only a very tiny bit cheaper has no goal.
I just want to avoid that we build a "budget" one that no budget speaker builders will do because it's to expensive. The SB34 vresion is already covered in Andy's tread, so making a copy that is not or only a very tiny bit cheaper has no goal.
Yes, they are rich. 50% of the households on planet earth makes less than 230€ per month.
Despite that Waxx will not build a version, I think his thinking and preferences are consistent with a lot of people who would end up building the design. I know obtaining a 3D printed waveguide, taking of the faceplate of a stock tweeter and attaching it, etc. really is a non-starter for some potential builders who would be attracted to this design.
Having said that, I would almost surely do a design with an without a waveguide and some edge treatments. I figure this will come up when we get to cabinet construction, which is probably after we have decided on all drivers.
With respect to builders: Most people who design speakers don't build other people's designs. The people who post multiple times a day on diyaudio are not the likely builders of the budget 3-way Classic version. Just like the people posting multiple posts a day aren't the typical builder of Troels Gravesens speakers. I think we take the advice of everyone here and if we design a high-performing speaker "for the money" some people (who likely won't even create a diyaudio.com account) will build it.
I am all for having a 2nd more expensive design (max $600) that uses something different than the SB34NRX...but (1) what driver and (2) who is going to build it?
😅
Ok, so cost is your primary concern. Any decent 3-way with a 12" or 10" automatically falls into higher than budget territory if you use average global income as a reference. Heck, anything above earphones + cheap phone is luxury for much of the world.
An avg middle income consumer might consider speakers >$1000 pricey, but the kind of 3-ways we're trying to design here start around $2500/pr for finished commercial designs. $600 in that context is amazingly budget!
"but the kind of 3-ways we're trying to design here start around $2500/pr for finished commercial designs. $600 in that context is amazingly budget!"
I don't think that is the target builder because they are not even contemplating a $2,500 speaker pair.
They are either not going to get speakers like this because commercial speakers are too expensive and they just get some $100 Edifiers off Amazon, or they are going to look at something like the Tarkus (because Troels designs, the Gemma kit, etc. are too expensive). The Tarkus, and others like it, are not in the 3-way Classic format and, while good, are not using as good drivers as they could for just a little bit more. So a relatively inexpensive classic 3-way format, with good (but not state of the art) performance for $300-$400 is appealing.
I don't think that is the target builder because they are not even contemplating a $2,500 speaker pair.
They are either not going to get speakers like this because commercial speakers are too expensive and they just get some $100 Edifiers off Amazon, or they are going to look at something like the Tarkus (because Troels designs, the Gemma kit, etc. are too expensive). The Tarkus, and others like it, are not in the 3-way Classic format and, while good, are not using as good drivers as they could for just a little bit more. So a relatively inexpensive classic 3-way format, with good (but not state of the art) performance for $300-$400 is appealing.
If cost is that tight, I'd consider the Dayton Audio DS315-8 or Goldwood GW-12PC-8 woofer. Both are less than $100 and better than the Peerless.
I try to think like them, i've been poor also in my younger years and know what they look after. So i try to tell what they think (i think, i'm not mr know it all off course).
There are a lot of lurkers here that build designs, but they are mostly rather new to the game and don't have or want to spend big budgets. The Tarkus is popular because it delivers a lot for a not so high price. It's not hte most advanced speaker, but it's hig price/quality ratio. Idem with the econowave designs of a while ago. Those are also not state of the art designs, but they are cheap, easy to build and sound good. I think for this monkey coffin version we need to try to be the econowave version of that concept: deliver a lot for a small price, not be state of the art. If you want that state of the art (i'm repeating myself) go to andy's tread where they go that drection on a reasonable price goal.
The Dayton and Goldwood I posted would definitely be good choices quality and performance wise. Exactly how well they do compared to the Peerless 830669 is debatable, but the specs favor the Dayton DS315-8. The Goldwood GW-12PC-8 is a decent no nonsense woofer. Its also very durable and will happily play loud all day with its big motor and decent sensitivity. Same holds true for the Dayton and I'd personally favor a paper cone if crossing it higher in a 3 way. The DS315-8 is worth more than it costs. I'd rate it a significantly better driver than the Peerless in terms of subjective sound quality.
What does community think of a budget monitor using SB Audience Bianco 12MW200 (US $106; EU 93,45€)?
Should provide us with a little higher sensitivity and a little less of lower bass? An untypical Fb=45Hz
vented cabinet of 70 lit could achieve 92dB/2,83V/1m; F3/F6/F10=46/39/33 Hz.
How about SB Audience Bianco 12 OB 150-01, sealed 70 lit (US $99; EU 90€)?
Should provide us with a little higher sensitivity and a little less of lower bass? An untypical Fb=45Hz
vented cabinet of 70 lit could achieve 92dB/2,83V/1m; F3/F6/F10=46/39/33 Hz.
How about SB Audience Bianco 12 OB 150-01, sealed 70 lit (US $99; EU 90€)?
I have a noob question please about the chocie of the mid, sensivity nimber wize.
In my last 3 ways design 8"+3"+3/4" , I have hard time to figure out before the drivers were purchased, on how sensivity of the midrange driver should be chosen to marry fine at crossover point around 300 Hz according the baffle step. I simply applied a -3/-4 dB baffle step for the bass driver there and -6/-8 for the midrange as the Difraction beginns as high as the tweeter cut off and the loss is progressive.
What shoul be the midrange senvity ideally (db/2.83V) for a cut-off with the bass driver around 200hz / 300 hz, pleease ? 3 to 4 dB higher than the rawbass driver sensivity is correct for you ?
Thanks.
In my last 3 ways design 8"+3"+3/4" , I have hard time to figure out before the drivers were purchased, on how sensivity of the midrange driver should be chosen to marry fine at crossover point around 300 Hz according the baffle step. I simply applied a -3/-4 dB baffle step for the bass driver there and -6/-8 for the midrange as the Difraction beginns as high as the tweeter cut off and the loss is progressive.
What shoul be the midrange senvity ideally (db/2.83V) for a cut-off with the bass driver around 200hz / 300 hz, pleease ? 3 to 4 dB higher than the rawbass driver sensivity is correct for you ?
Thanks.
yes I confirm, the XXL is 30 euros more and NLA for the moment at Soundimports. 172 euros with VAT is what I see at tlhp for the SB. They have not the peerless anymore.
One of the first suggestions (by me) was the DSA315-8. Unfortunately Dayton drivers are not nearly as good a bargain in Europe. The DSA315 costs 10 euros less than the Scan-speak Discovery 26W in Europe. So we ruled out Dayton drivers and have focused on SB Acoustics, Peerless, FaitalPro, etc.
Yes, we have recognized that "ruling out Dayton drivers" for a budget build is a bizarre concept for those of us in the US.
Edit - I didn't see your last post before I wrote this one.
I've used the Dayton DS315-8 in a smaller ported 3 way. Its an excellent driver for that application and well outclasses any medium sized 3 way under $1500/pr. With the SB12MNRX2 mid and any decent silk or metal HF dome, it will be superior to most larger floor standing speakers in terms of clarity, dynamic range and linearity. It would also be easy to drive with a smaller amp, which is IMO important. The ease of crossover implementation is also an important cost consideration.
If I build the cabinet and measure the low cost option I agree to doing so without a waveguide.
1) I believe I am the only one who has said he would build the prototype of the low cost option. But I have no objections to somebody else doing it instead. I might even be willing to pay someone to save me from the task 🤣
2) This does not prevent me from ALSO talking measurements with a waveguided tweeter as an additional option. Obviously this possibility depends on the tweeter selected.
1) I believe I am the only one who has said he would build the prototype of the low cost option. But I have no objections to somebody else doing it instead. I might even be willing to pay someone to save me from the task 🤣
2) This does not prevent me from ALSO talking measurements with a waveguided tweeter as an additional option. Obviously this possibility depends on the tweeter selected.